Post-Game Talk: Sewart Skinner in the FLA Swamp

[NeverForget06]

The Pens were still more proactive than the Oilers, in years where MAF was bad after their first Cup win they brought in Vokoun, who's probably a better goalie than anyone McDavid has had. He gave them .919 goaltending for a year and then developed a blood clot issue if I recall. So not the greatest luck there, at least they weren't completely oblivious.

Who would you trade for right now?

Part of the thing is - this isn't a video game. You trade for a goalie to replace Skinner as "the guy" and that changes the dynamic of the team. You basically have to move on from him. So who is the starter you are bringing in who can carry this team to the cup final?

 

[Soundwave]

Who would you trade for right now?

Part of the thing is - this isn't a video game. You trade for a goalie to replace Skinner as "the guy" and that changes the dynamic of the team. You basically have to move on from him. So who is the starter you are bringing in who can carry this team to the cup final?

I would examine the guys in the top 50 in GSAA and top 30 in save percentage for one and go from there.

Having David Riitich tier goaltending is just a ridiculous handicap to ask a team to deal with when trying to win a Cup.

And if it's hard, tough shit Oilers ... you wanted a generational player, well that comes with some responsibility that you do some damn work as a front office. One OK starter in almost 10 years now (Talbot in 16-17) is incredibly negligent management. We're like five months away from the 10th anniversary of winning the McDavid lottery.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I mean Crosby has 3 of them even with several years of his prime wiped out by injuries and McDavid is probably an even better player and the rest of the roster has been somewhat comparable to the Pens for at least a couple of years now.

The main difference between the Oilers and Pens is the Pens had outstanding goaltending in their Cup runs. That puts them over the top, that's the difference.

Put Skinner on those same Penguins teams as a starter and they win 0 Cups, maybe they make a Finals once.

Ovechkin has one Cup. MacKinnon/Makar have one Cup. Matthews has zero. Oettinger/Hellebuyck/Price/Lundqvist all have zero. Even Crosby had to endure several embarrassing playoff losses before he got Cup #2.

Winning a Cup is extremely hard. It requires a lot of things to go the right way. The Lightning won the Cup in '04 and then failed to make the Finals for another decade. The Canes won theirs in '06 and haven't won more than 8 games in a playoff since. The Ducks won theirs in '07 and suffered a series of embarrassing playoff exits until the bottom fell out. The Sharks only made the Finals once and then never again. The Blues had a combination of Binnington playing out of his mind along with basically every contender knocked out in round 1, leaving the field wide open. The Knights took everyone by surprise in the two years they made the Finals but still had Adin Hill (who wasn't even in their plans) playing the best hockey of his life along with playing a few crappy teams along the way.

There's a laundry list of amazing players who haven't won the Cup or only did once. Even Gretzky never won the Cup again after he left Edmonton.

 

[NeverForget06]

I would examine the guys in the top 50 in GSAA and top 30 in save percentage for one and go from there.

Having David Riitich tier goaltending is just a ridiculous handicap to ask a team to deal with when trying to win a Cup.

And if it's hard, tough shit Oilers ... you wanted a generational player, well that comes with some responsibility that you do some damn work as a front office. One OK starter in almost 10 years now (Talbot in 16-17) is incredibly negligent management. We're like five months away from the 10th anniversary of winning the McDavid lottery.

That's what I thought your solution would be - "just be a good GM and get a good goaltender"

You can complain all you want(and I'm sure you will) - but with goaltending especially, things are difficult. Should still be Campbell's net. That was a swing and a miss. Skinner got them to the Cup finals - he's not Dave Rittich. He's not great either, I don't disagree. But you're calling management idiots and have no solution yourself other than snap your fingers and get a good goalie

 

[Soundwave]

Ovechkin has one Cup. MacKinnon/Makar have one Cup. Matthews has zero. Oettinger/Hellebuyck/Price/Lundqvist all have zero. Even Crosby had to endure several embarrassing playoff losses before he got Cup #2.

Winning a Cup is extremely hard. It requires a lot of things to go the right way. The Lightning won the Cup in '04 and then failed to make the Finals for another decade. The Canes won theirs in '06 and haven't won more than 8 games in a playoff since. The Ducks won theirs in '07 and suffered a series of embarrassing playoff exits until the bottom fell out. The Sharks only made the Finals once and then never again. The Blues had a combination of Binnington playing out of his mind along with basically every contender knocked out in round 1, leaving the field wide open. The Knights took everyone by surprise in the two years they made the Finals but still had Adin Hill (who wasn't even in their plans) playing the best hockey of his life along with playing a few crappy teams along the way.

There's a laundry list of amazing players who haven't won the Cup or only did once. Even Gretzky never won the Cup again after he left Edmonton.

How many players would win a Cup in the modern era in McDavid's place with 1 decent goalie to show for 10 years (Talbot during 16-17)?

I don't think Wayne or Mario could do it even if you transplanted them in their primes onto this Oilers team in place of McDavid.

The 91 and 92 Cup winning Penguins teams for Mario, Tom Barrasso was among the top playoff goalies posting a fantastic .912 in the '91 playoffs (for that time that was outstanding, Patrick Roy was .898 the same year), and .907 the next year (better than Roy's .904). So in his two Cup wins, Mario needed better than Patrick Roy level goaltending to win.

It's honestly unfair what's being asked of McDavid, IMO Gretzky or Lemieux or Crosby and definitely not Ovechkin would be able to win a Cup with the massive handicap the Oilers have in net.

You have to give even the greatest players something to work with back there. Maybe Connor can will it to reality once because he may well be the greatest talent the sport has ever seen, but it is profoundly unfair the low effort this team has put into goaltending in 10 years.

 

[bobbythebrain]

How many players would win a Cup in the modern era in McDavid's place with 1 decent goalie to show for 10 years (Talbot during 16-17)?

I don't think Wayne or Mario could do it even if you transplanted them in their primes onto this Oilers team in place of McDavid.

The 91 and 92 Cup winning Penguins teams for Mario, Tom Barrasso was among the top playoff goalies posting a fantastic .912 in the '91 playoffs (for that time that was outstanding, Patrick Roy was .898 the same year), and .907 the next year (better than Roy's .904). So in his two Cup wins, Mario needed better than Patrick Roy level goaltending to win.

It's honestly unfair what's being asked of McDavid, IMO Gretzky or Lemieux or Crosby and definitely not Ovechkin would be able to win a Cup with the massive handicap the Oilers have in net.

You have to give even the greatest players something to work with back there. Maybe Connor can will it to reality once because he may well be the greatest talent the sport has ever seen, but it is profoundly unfair the low effort this team has put into goaltending in 10 years.

Your obsession with save pct is very reminasant of the plus/minus crowd from years back. Just saying

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

How many players would win a Cup in the modern era in McDavid's place with 1 decent goalie to show for 10 years (Talbot during 16-17)?

I don't think Wayne or Mario could do it.

Even the 91 and 92 Cup winning Penguins teams for Mario, Tom Barrasso was among the top playoff goalies posting a fantastic .912 in the '91 playoffs (for that time that outstanding, Patrick Roy was .898 the same year), and .907 the next year (better than Roy's .904).

It's honestly unfair what's being asked of McDavid, IMO Gretzky or Lemieux or Crosby and definitely not Ovechkin would be able to win a Cup with the massive handicap the Oilers have in net.

You have to give even the greatest players something to work with. Maybe Connor can will it because he may well be the greatest talent the sport has ever seen, but it is profoundly unfair the low effort this team has put into goaltending in 10 years.

I don't know. No player is an instant Cup winner. And as much as you blame Skinner, he had nothing to do with the embarrassing losses to the Blackhawks and Jets teams that we should've easily beaten.

Remember how easily the 2022 Avalanche shredded the teams they played in the playoffs? That same team has all of one series win (against Winnipeg) since their Cup win.

I would also say very few teams win the Cup because of their goaltending. It takes a complete team effort to win the Cup. It takes unsung heroes, players stepping up, and a total commitment to winning. Look at all the great teams the past few years that have nothing to show. The Bruins had their one Cup win in 2011 and have suffered a slew of terrible playoff losses in the meantime despite some very good teams. Carolina has consistently been one of the best teams the past few years yet always seem unable to get over the hump. The Rangers have arguably the best goalie on the planet and have yet to reach the promised land. We beat Dallas last year who was arguably the best team in the conference and a favourite to win the Cup.

There's no magic formula for winning a Cup. McDavid does a lot of heavy lifting but he can't draft or scout or do much off-ice for this team. He also can't prevent injuries to key players. He can't control which teams we face in the playoffs.

You talk about goaltending but I'd argue that a lot of the team's failures in the postseason have to do with lack of depth scoring. Last year we finally got some offense from the bottom six as the playoffs went on and the results speak for themselves. Unfortunately a lot of players went cold in the Finals at the worst possible time. You're not going to win too many games when you score 1 goal or less, regardless of who you have in net.

 

[Soundwave]

Your obsession with save pct is very reminasant of the plus/minus crowd from years back. Just saying

Use any metric or stat you want, the Oilers goaltending is mediocre, I think Buffalo (the worst franchise in the league) has better goalies during the last 10 years quite possibly (Ullmark, Lehner, C. Johnson, Anderson, Luukonen versus Talbot, 39 year old Smith, Koskinen, Campbell, Skinner is probably a wash if not a bit of an advantage for Buffalo).

The ask on McDavid to deliver a Cup with this level of goaltending is a tougher challenge than any faced by Gretzky, Lemiuex, Crosby, Ovechkin, etc. I don't think any of those guys would be able to do it.

It's hard to win a Cup, it becomes extremely, extremely difficult to win with this tier of goaltending. I doubt any other great player would be able to do it.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Use any metric or stat you want, the Oilers goaltending is mediocre, I think Buffalo (the worst franchise in the league) has better goalies during the last 10 years quite possibly (Ullmark, Lehner, C. Johnson, Luukonen versus Talbot, 39 year old Smith, Koskinen, Skinner is close).

The ask on McDavid to deliver a Cup with this level of goaltending is a tougher challenge than any faced by Gretzky, Lemiuex, Crosby, Ovechkin, etc. I don't think any of those guys would be able to do it.

It's hard to win a Cup, it becomes extremely, extremely difficult to win with this tier of goaltending. I doubt any other great player would be able to do it.

Yeah, it is mediocre. Colorado showed that you can win a Cup with mediocre goaltending. Whatever narrative you want to spin we still came up one game short with Skinner in net. A couple more goals in the games we lost and we're probably champions.

 

[Soundwave]

Yeah, it is mediocre. Colorado showed that you can win a Cup with mediocre goaltending. Whatever narrative you want to spin we still came up one game short with Skinner in net. A couple more goals in the games we lost and we're probably champions.

Maybe last year was a miracle. They are playing with fire trying to run it back with the same mediocre goaltending.

Colorado only won because they had an abnormally loaded roster in a cap era because of the fluke of having MacKinnon at 6 million cap hit, which is a compounded advantage because of the freak occurrence of COVID (frozen cap means MacK's value contract was even more valuable).

And case in point look at Colorado since that season when they have had to pay MacKinnon a normalized salary (12 million). With a roughly equivalent supporting cast to McDavid, (Makar, Rantanen, Nichushkin, Middelstatd, Toews vs. Draisaitl, Hyman, Ekholm, Bouchard, RNH ... a fair split I'd say) the Avs have washed out of the playoffs early both years whereas McDavid has taken the Oilers further which shows he is better than MacKinnon.

Not so easy to win when you don't have the deck stacked in your favor, is it?

No chance in hell a team with McDavid + Makar would lose to the Seattle Kraken in round 1, lmao as MacK led the Avs to.

You put MacK on this team instead of McDavid and they're probably out in round 2 in the '24 playoffs.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Maybe last year was a miracle.

Colorado only won because they had an abnormally loaded roster in a cap era because of the fluke of having MacKinnon at 6 million cap hit.

And case in point look at Colorado since that season when they have had to pay MacKinnon a normalized salary (12 million). With a roughly equivalent supporting cast to McDavid, (Makar, Rantanen, Nichushkin, Middelstatd, Toews vs. Draisaitl, Hyman, Ekholm, Bouchard, RNH ... a fair split I'd say) the Avs have washed out of the playoffs early whereas McDavid has taken the Oilers further which shows he is better than MacKinnon.

You put MacK on this team instead of McDavid and they're probably out in round 2.

I mean yeah McDavid is better than MacKinnon, I don't think there's any debate there. But we don't have a Cale Makar who has arguably revitalized that franchise. Colorado also made a lot of sneaky good deals that built the eventual cup winner. They basically stole Devon Toews from the Islanders while Ken Holland was in one of his many comas.

 

[Soundwave]

I mean yeah McDavid is better than MacKinnon, I don't think there's any debate there. But we don't have a Cale Makar who has arguably revitalized that franchise. Colorado also made a lot of sneaky good deals that built the eventual cup winner. They basically stole Devon Toews from the Islanders while Ken Holland was in one of his many comas.

Well yeah if you need genius tier management deals + a frozen cap by a freak global pandemic that made MacKinnon's 6 million contract even more of an advantage over competing teams like us ... that isn't really a workable template here (or really for most other teams).

We are better off simply accepting that mediocre in net is not good enough and doing what we can to improve it as a central weakness we have relative to most Cup winning teams.

If Stan Bowman wants to pull a Toews move out of his ass, we're all waiting, but I don't think that's going to happen.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

I mean yeah McDavid is better than MacKinnon, I don't think there's any debate there. But we don't have a Cale Makar who has arguably revitalized that franchise. Colorado also made a lot of sneaky good deals that built the eventual cup winner. They basically stole Devon Toews from the Islanders while Ken Holland was in one of his many comas.

Holland basically stole Ekholm. We’re the other GMs in comas?

 

[GrumpyKoala]

The Pens were still more proactive than the Oilers, in years where MAF was bad after their first Cup win they brought in Vokoun, who's probably a better goalie than anyone McDavid has had. He gave them .919 goaltending for a year and then developed a blood clot issue if I recall. So not the greatest luck there, at least they weren't completely oblivious.

They also didn't hesitate much to swap around who starting in case of failure, something this group can't wrap their head around.

There no loyalty in playoff, you ride who hot.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Holland basically stole Ekholm. We’re the other GMs in comas?

He did make a good trade, I'll certainly grant him that.

But between the two I'd rather have Toews.

 

[Soundwave]

Holland basically stole Ekholm. We’re the other GMs in comas?

Sakic added like 4 or 5 massive ads and a couple more good under the radar finds to get that team over the hump though.

Toews, Kadri, Nichushkin, Manson, Burakovsky, Lekkohnen, Compher.

And he got most of those guys without overpaying. He did so much work that ultimately the move to bring in Kuemper really wasn't even needed, but this is an extreme outlier of an incredible GMing run + a massive stroke of good luck in a top 3 player in the league being paid 1/2 his salary (MacKinnon).

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

Sakic added like 4 or 5 massive ads and a couple more good under the radar finds to get that team over the hump though.

Toews, Kadri, Nichushkin, Manson, Burakovsky, Lekkohnen, Compher.

And he got most of those guys without overpaying.

Oh I don’t disagree. That team was one of the best teams I have ever seen. I’m just saying Holland stole a top tier d-man himself.

 

[Murphinator]

Being an oilers fan means being in skinners circus, ya never know what to expect

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Being an oilers fan means being in skinners circus, ya never know what to expect

The circus has been going on since before Skinner was even drafted.

 

[TB12]

I mean Crosby has 3 of them even with several years of his prime wiped out by injuries and McDavid is probably an even better player and the rest of the roster has been somewhat comparable to the Pens for at least a couple of years now.

The main difference between the Oilers and Pens is the Pens had outstanding goaltending in their Cup runs. That puts them over the top, that's the difference.

Put Skinner on those same Penguins teams as a starter and they win 0 Cups, maybe they make a Finals once.

You literally said "easily win the Cup". My dude, there is no "easy" winning a Cup.

Maybe read what I wrote. I agree Skinner isn't good. But you cannot say the words "win a Cup easily". That's just not how winning a Cup works.

 

[Soundwave]

You literally said "easily win the Cup". My dude, there is no "easy" winning a Cup.

Maybe read what I wrote. I agree Skinner isn't good. But you cannot say the words "win a Cup easily". That's just not how winning a Cup works.

We would have a Cup or two if we had better goaltending in the last three years especially.

I think if you gave McDavid a higher end goalie he would win a Cup as "easily" as Crosby did in 2016. I don't know if "easy" is the correct word, but they steamrolled everyone that year.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

We would have a Cup or two if we had better goaltending in the last three years especially.

I think if you gave McDavid a higher end goalie he would win a Cup as "easily" as Crosby did in 2016. I don't know if "easy" is the correct word, but they steamrolled everyone that year.

That's not a guarantee though. Like yeah, Mike Smith sucked ass against the Avs in 2022 but the team was just overwhelmed by a vastly superior opponent.

Many of the world's best goalies have never touched the Cup even with good teams around them. Who would you take between Shesterkin or Bobrovsky?

 

[T-Funk]

Woops my bad decided to watch a game again lol. Good to see we still aren't hitting and Florida and Tkachuk are still making us their bitch.

 

[Soundwave]

That's not a guarantee though. Like yeah, Mike Smith sucked ass against the Avs in 2022 but the team was just overwhelmed by a vastly superior opponent.

Many of the world's best goalies have never touched the Cup even with good teams around them. Who would you take between Shesterkin or Bobrovsky?

Having two players as good as prime McDavid + Draisait + .910 even in net + a decent defensive system pretty much should seal the deal on a Cup.

We are intentionally making this way harder than it has to be.