TSN: Serious team?

[ACC1224]

Votes are 43 -2 .

We just need Dekes to show up to get that 3rd vote.

 

[andora]

So a bunch of speculation.

I just assumed obvious meant verifiably true

then ask to have the board shut down, no posting unless it is a mod posting an X report

 

[Stephen]

To be fair, it isn't moving far from my post season comments the last few years. We've seen all kinds of arguments about why we didn't win, and I've simply said, you need your best players, to be the best players on the ice to win when it counts. Our Best players haven't been that.

Maybe for a little bit against Tampa... and they won... but I digress.

When you have that much talent, you have to let them mature, and learn how to win... it's taken many other players years to learn that. Me personally, I've just gotten to the point when I look at them, and don't see any growth in that at all. Matthews at times last year, he showed signs of wanting to compete more. More physicality at times, better defensively... but when it really counted, he wilted. To be clear, I'm not blaming him, just stating I saw some signs of improvement.

I don't really blame management to staying with these guys either... when you are gifted this level of talent, you have to let the string play out for a bit... I guess where we differ, is when we have concluded enough is enough of these guys... and that's the challenge, you never know when players will mature into winners.

One thing that makes me nauseous about the Dubas era talking points was the emphasis on talking about “talent” in their own description of the core. Talent is obviously precious and gives you a head start but it’s the marriage of talent and work that realizes a championship goal.

The message implicitly put value on talent, aka what comes naturally, and set the group apart from all the other scrub teams who have to “work” what you have to control every day. And that always bothered me. It explains their inconsistent work because they have superior talent in their back pocket.

But it also put a target on their backs because if I’m a team like Boston I’m going to be pretty motivated to work harder to kick Toronto’s ass. And wouldn’t you know it. Every. F’ing. Time.

 

[SprDaVE]

I'm sure the premise is if you make the playoffs. As it stands 5 regulation wins in 19 games doesn't pass the sniff test for many.

Think of the Matthews and Marner narrative like a Rocky movie. Ultimate playoff success is obviously winning the big fight and taking the baddie down at the end. But you still need the montage where they eat right train right, get right and are running the steps to get to the fight to feel good they’re on the right track. Not suck on their thumbs for 8 months until they need to step in the ring.

Panthers made the playoffs by 1 point, only because the Penguins lost their last game too. Sometimes you have a rough regular season and you heat up at the right time, right?

We've broken regular season records last couple years and it didn't really go anywhere, and everytime we do well in the regular season "it doesn't matter, the playoffs do." but now the regular season is the bar we need to raise? It's so weird how things get twisted. Bruins broke the regular season record last year as well.

 

[ITM]

I find Mitch and probably Auston are guys who thrive on good vibes cruise control. Block out negative thoughts, don’t get too up or too down. Even keeled approach.

But unfortunately for them the game can be about finding ways to harness negative emotions in order to dig into the effort and energy reserves.

So you need a guy with a high emotional intelligence level of a Tocchet to get something special out of them. Keefe doesn’t seem to have any kind of that.

For the most part I think that's correct. I see a different fire at times in Matthews, and it's come out in the playoffs, just not consistently as is required for success.

Before the big money contract, Marner showed real signs of an engaging skilled forward. After the money, a more..."aware" type of player perhaps?

At this point, what's clear is that Keefe (with this group) has gone as far as he can. Having ROR in the lockeroom was a bit of good fortune against battered and bruised Lightning team that played a lot of hockey in recent years.

For me it was Salming's Night. Certainly I was projecting. But if you can't get up as a team after seeing that...Then the room's heart and soul is need of a change.

One thing that makes me nauseous about the Dubas era talking points was the emphasis on talking about “talent” in their own description of the core. Talent is obviously precious and gives you a head start but it’s the marriage of talent and work that realizes a championship goal.

The message implicitly put value on talent, aka what comes naturally, and set the group apart from all the other scrub teams who have to “work” what you have to control every day. And that always bothered me. It explains their inconsistent work because they have superior talent in their back pocket.

But it also put a target on their backs because if I’m a team like Boston I’m going to be pretty motivated to work harder to kick Toronto’s ass. And wouldn’t you know it. Every. F’ing. Time.

Credit where credit's due: Babcock's conversation with Matthews comes to mind.

 

[ToneDog]

Votes are 43 -2 .

We just need Dekes to show up to get that 3rd vote.

Panthers made the playoffs by 1 point, only because the Penguins lost their last game too. Sometimes you have a rough regular season and you heat up at the right time, right?

We've broken regular season records last couple years and it didn't really go anywhere, and everytime we do well in the regular season "it doesn't matter, the playoffs do." but now the regular season is the bar we need to raise? It's so weird how things get twisted. Bruins broke the regular season record last year as well.

Absolutely. Maybe if these guys have to battle for a playoff spot going into the playoffs, things will be different.

 

[Fogelhund]

Panthers made the playoffs by 1 point, only because the Penguins lost their last game too. Sometimes you have a rough regular season and you heat up at the right time, right?

We've broken regular season records last couple years and it didn't really go anywhere, and everytime we do well in the regular season "it doesn't matter, the playoffs do." but now the regular season is the bar we need to raise? It's so weird how things get twisted. Bruins broke the regular season record last year as well.

I fully appreciate what you are saying, but the way I'm looking at it is not the results so much, as the way they've played, and the effort. When a group hasn't raised their game in the playoffs year after year, and then gives the kind of effort they are so far this year... The regular season is a dance rehearsal for the playoffs... and they aren't taking that practise seriously. I don't see any indication that suddenly that effort will be there, if we sneak into the playoffs, when we've never seen it before.

 

[andora]

Panthers made the playoffs by 1 point, only because the Penguins lost their last game too. Sometimes you have a rough regular season and you heat up at the right time, right?

We've broken regular season records last couple years and it didn't really go anywhere, and everytime we do well in the regular season "it doesn't matter, the playoffs do." but now the regular season is the bar we need to raise? It's so weird how things get twisted. Bruins broke the regular season record last year as well.

if this team play more inspiring hockey and worked hard people would be just as happy watching them claw and scrape into the playoffs as they would having a 110 point team

 

[SprDaVE]

I fully appreciate what you are saying, but the way I'm looking at it is not the results so much, as the way they've played, and the effort. When a group hasn't raised their game in the playoffs year after year, and then gives the kind of effort they are so far this year... The regular season is a dance rehearsal for the playoffs... and they aren't taking that practise seriously. I don't see any indication that suddenly that effort will be there, if we sneak into the playoffs, when we've never seen it before.

I mean I get it. They've sucked ass so the complaints are more than warranted. It's not very fun watching them right now. I just find it weird we can dominate the regular season and still get the same complaints. Maybe adversity early is what they need? I dunno man.

But the Bruins didn't dominate the entire regular season and then exit the first round because they don't care. They are right back at dominating this year, you don't see anyone writing "Well ackshually, the playoffs matter not the regular season". Where are the radio hits about them not caring or being serious?

 

[SprDaVE]

if this team play more inspiring hockey and worked hard people would be just as happy watching them claw and scrape into the playoffs as they would having a 110 point team

No they wouldn't lol We'd very much complain they aren't winning regardless of the effort.

We can be first in every metric game in and out, but it doesn't matter if the scoreboard doesn't show the W or if we lose out early in the playoffs regardless of circumstance.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

It's not a team that is serious about winning the cup. The players are not serious about giving the type of effort required, to be an elite team, and they don't even give enough effort to bury a team as bad as Chicago, when it's there for the taking.

We are going to get a new coach before long, and the results won't be any different.
We might get new management, and the results won't be any different.

We need a culture change amongst the players. I'm not in the room, I can't tell you who is serious about winning, and who is capable of raising their game and effort when needed. I don't see pissed off people, when they are embarrassed. I don't see it when they are manhandled physically, I don't see it when they lose to a team they shouldn't, I don't see it much at all. No pride in wanting to succeed. Happy to take some big paychecks, happy for the stardom... But not serious about winning, whatever it takes.

I really don't understand how anyone can watch this team, particularly this year, and conclude these players are very serious about being an elite, playoff contending team. Are you not watching the complete lack of effort, the lack of compete, the lack of attention to detail?

Look, there are a bunch of people on this forum, that will say... whoa... when that overly positive, Leafs defender guy Fogelhund has had enough of this... there is a problem.

Welcome to the Dark Side.

 

[Hellcat]

Can a player “wake up and get it”? Or is it a gene they don’t have?

Good question , I think it depends on what they need to get ...

It's not a team that is serious about winning the cup. The players are not serious about giving the type of effort required, to be an elite team, and they don't even give enough effort to bury a team as bad as Chicago, when it's there for the taking.

We are going to get a new coach before long, and the results won't be any different.
We might get new management, and the results won't be any different.

We need a culture change amongst the players. I'm not in the room, I can't tell you who is serious about winning, and who is capable of raising their game and effort when needed. I don't see pissed off people, when they are embarrassed. I don't see it when they are manhandled physically, I don't see it when they lose to a team they shouldn't, I don't see it much at all. No pride in wanting to succeed. Happy to take some big paychecks, happy for the stardom... But not serious about winning, whatever it takes.

I really don't understand how anyone can watch this team, particularly this year, and conclude these players are very serious about being an elite, playoff contending team. Are you not watching the complete lack of effort, the lack of compete, the lack of attention to detail?

Look, there are a bunch of people on this forum, that will say... whoa... when that overly positive, Leafs defender guy Fogelhund has had enough of this... there is a problem.

Winning in hockey hurts... I speak from experience, coming from a guy who won a City league championship at age 12 and 14 ... ...

 

[Nineteen67]

Panthers made the playoffs by 1 point, only because the Penguins lost their last game too. Sometimes you have a rough regular season and you heat up at the right time, right?

We've broken regular season records last couple years and it didn't really go anywhere, and everytime we do well in the regular season "it doesn't matter, the playoffs do." but now the regular season is the bar we need to raise? It's so weird how things get twisted. Bruins broke the regular season record last year as well.

The Panthers, led by their best players decided to step up and fight. They were called out for being too soft and took it to heart.

Do Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly have it in them to step up and show some fight and carry a team? No one knows.

 

[Hellcat]

Has Keefe hindered the development of Matty, Mitch and Willie?

 

[SprDaVE]

The Panthers, led by their best players decided to step up and fight. They were called out for being too soft and took it to heart.

Do Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly have it in them to step up and show some fight and carry a team? No one knows.

Sure they decided to take 60% of the season off, looked like utter crap, had terrible goaltending, only to have their seasons saved because the Penguins lost their last game of the season. Talk about completely just ignoring the details of it all.

But sure, none of the Leafs have any fight and can carry a team. You right. They're not serious, they are terrible and there's no redeeming quality. I blame Dubas.

 

[Nineteen67]

Has Keefe hindered the development of Matty, Mitch and Willie?

If any of those three players was on a contending team the past 5 yrs which one, if any, would have excelled in the playoffs?

 

[Fogelhund]

I mean I get it. They've sucked ass so the complaints are more than warranted. It's not very fun watching them right now. I just find it weird we can dominate the regular season and still get the same complaints. Maybe adversity early is what they need? I dunno man.

But the Bruins didn't dominate the entire regular season and then exit the first round because they don't care. They are right back at dominating this year, you don't see anyone writing "Well ackshually, the playoffs matter not the regular season". Where are the radio hits about them not caring or being serious?

That's part of sports.. you can be great, and get some bad luck and lose... it's just part of the game.. but if you play right, and know how to dominate, losing in the first round is the exception, not the rule... More often than not, the teams that play right, know how to win... will win... not always, but most of the time. Those that don't, won't...

 

[Mess]

Its right in the Ownership name.

MLSE = Maple Leafs Sports & Entertainment.

A sports franchise designed for entertainment purposes mainly with winning an afterthought,

Are you not entertained watching star players like Matthews, Marner, Nylander skating around in Leafs jerseys? Mission accomplished if you invest your time and $$ in viewing them.

Winning a championship would be nice, but hey no big deal if the Leafs are an early or easy out each playoffs at least they have star players in the line-up to cheer for. What you pay them even if it impacts team competitiveness is not the biggest concern here.

Under Leafs current management MLSE might as well stand for "Makes Losing Seem Expected" and makes the slogan "We Can and We Will" essentially prophetic in nature .

 

[rumman]

Absolutely. Maybe if these guys have to battle for a playoff spot going into the playoffs, things will be different.

I think there's a lot to this...........

 

[andora]

No they wouldn't lol We'd very much complain they aren't winning regardless of the effort.

We can be first in every metric game in and out, but it doesn't matter if the scoreboard doesn't show the W or if we lose out early in the playoffs regardless of circumstance.

i believe in general yes they would

 

[Evilhomer]

Sure they decided to take 60% of the season off, looked like utter crap, had terrible goaltending, only to have their seasons saved because the Penguins lost their last game of the season. Talk about completely just ignoring the details of it all.

But sure, none of the Leafs have any fight and can carry a team. You right. They're not serious, they are terrible and there's no redeeming quality. I blame Dubas.

I love it when people point to Florida as some shining example to follow. I don't remember seeing these comments a couple of nights ago when they rolled over and died against Winnipeg. But I guess you buck all statistical odds by winning something like 9 straight overtime games in the playoffs and all of a sudden you are a serious team. If the Leafs win tonight, will Toronto be more serious than Florida?

 

[Nineteen67]

Sure they decided to take 60% of the season off, looked like utter crap, had terrible goaltending, only to have their seasons saved because the Penguins lost their last game of the season. Talk about completely ignoring everything and making your own biased opinion on it.

But sure, none of the Leafs have any fight and can carry a team. You right.

I dont know what they decided but their play got a lot better after getting called out by Keith Tkachuk and reamed by Maurice. That stretch of games seems important in how everything played out.

 

[capfit9]

They are serious about ONE THING:

 

[rumman]

No they wouldn't lol We'd very much complain they aren't winning regardless of the effort.

We can be first in every metric game in and out, but it doesn't matter if the scoreboard doesn't show the W or if we lose out early in the playoffs regardless of circumstance.

for me this is complete BS. Screw stats, highlite goals and fancy plays, if this team worked it's ass off and lost every game I'd enjoy it more, most of sports is watching the way a team competes regardless of outcome..........

 

[andora]

I love it when people point to Florida as some shining example to follow. I don't remember seeing these comments a couple of nights ago when they rolled over and died against Winnipeg. But I guess you buck all statistical odds by winning something like 9 straight overtime games in the playoffs and all of a sudden you are a serious team. If the Leafs win tonight, will Toronto be more serious than Florida?

do you a quick little nod and a small grunt after clicking reply - i just picture it thats all