TSN: Serious team?

[Nineteen67]

It's not a team that is serious about winning the cup. The players are not serious about giving the type of effort required, to be an elite team, and they don't even give enough effort to bury a team as bad as Chicago, when it's there for the taking.

We are going to get a new coach before long, and the results won't be any different.
We might get new management, and the results won't be any different.

We need a culture change amongst the players. I'm not in the room, I can't tell you who is serious about winning, and who is capable of raising their game and effort when needed. I don't see pissed off people, when they are embarrassed. I don't see it when they are manhandled physically, I don't see it when they lose to a team they shouldn't, I don't see it much at all. No pride in wanting to succeed. Happy to take some big paychecks, happy for the stardom... But not serious about winning, whatever it takes.

I really don't understand how anyone can watch this team, particularly this year, and conclude these players are very serious about being an elite, playoff contending team. Are you not watching the complete lack of effort, the lack of compete, the lack of attention to detail?

Look, there are a bunch of people on this forum, that will say... whoa... when that overly positive, Leafs defender guy Fogelhund has had enough of this... there is a problem.

We don’t know the problems, but when Ryan O’Reilly hints that are issues with the attitude of the core, and people that know Ryan O’Reilly and have talked to Ryan O’Reilly, hint there are issues with the core….there are probably issues with the core. They want the outcome but can they do the process?

 

[Stephen]

You might be right.

Marner’s style of play seemed most conducive for success under heavier hands: Hunter, Babcock…I think Tocchet, Gallant…Quenneville, would all be good fits.

A comfortable Marner is a harmless Marner it seems.

I find Mitch and probably Auston are guys who thrive on good vibes cruise control. Block out negative thoughts, don’t get too up or too down. Even keeled approach.

But unfortunately for them the game can be about finding ways to harness negative emotions in order to dig into the effort and energy reserves.

So you need a guy with a high emotional intelligence level of a Tocchet to get something special out of them. Keefe doesn’t seem to have any kind of that.

 

[notbias]

We don’t know the problems but when Ryan O’Reilly hints that are issues with the attitude of the core and people that know Ryan O’Reilly and talked to Ryan O’Reilly hint there are issues with the core.
They want the outcome but can they do the process?

ROR has chased money his entire career and is not a good person... maybe no one would be his DD.

This whole thread will turn into people grasping at any invisible measure to justify why the team is bad when there aren't obvious answers...

 

[GoonieFace]

They are serious about getting an early start to the golf season

It's not a team that is serious about winning the cup. The players are not serious about giving the type of effort required, to be an elite team, and they don't even give enough effort to bury a team as bad as Chicago, when it's there for the taking.

We are going to get a new coach before long, and the results won't be any different.
We might get new management, and the results won't be any different.

We need a culture change amongst the players. I'm not in the room, I can't tell you who is serious about winning, and who is capable of raising their game and effort when needed. I don't see pissed off people, when they are embarrassed. I don't see it when they are manhandled physically, I don't see it when they lose to a team they shouldn't, I don't see it much at all. No pride in wanting to succeed. Happy to take some big paychecks, happy for the stardom... But not serious about winning, whatever it takes.

I really don't understand how anyone can watch this team, particularly this year, and conclude these players are very serious about being an elite, playoff contending team. Are you not watching the complete lack of effort, the lack of compete, the lack of attention to detail?

Look, there are a bunch of people on this forum, that will say... whoa... when that overly positive, Leafs defender guy Fogelhund has had enough of this... there is a problem.

Welcome, you have seen the light

 

[Trapper]

Can a player “wake up and get it”? Or is it a gene they don’t have?

No I don’t think you can get it if you don’t have it in your makeup. Like a long distance runner becoming a sprinter. Makeup is different.

If you have the gene, you can take a few years to get it, but after what we’ve seen over a large sample size, I’d say they don’t have that intensity. They play to play.

 

[GoonieFace]

ROR has chased money his entire career and is not a good person... maybe no one would be his DD.

This whole thread will turn into people grasping at any invisible measure to justify why the team is bad when there aren't obvious answers...

I don’t think the team is bad, but I don’t think they have the guys that will even know how to win.

I equate Marner and Matthews to real good PGA tour players. They have all the talent, but not enough between the ears. They will make a bunch of money and put up some nice stats, but they will never win the big one, because they already won theirs

 

[Stephen]

It's not a team that is serious about winning the cup. The players are not serious about giving the type of effort required, to be an elite team, and they don't even give enough effort to bury a team as bad as Chicago, when it's there for the taking.

We are going to get a new coach before long, and the results won't be any different.
We might get new management, and the results won't be any different.

We need a culture change amongst the players. I'm not in the room, I can't tell you who is serious about winning, and who is capable of raising their game and effort when needed. I don't see pissed off people, when they are embarrassed. I don't see it when they are manhandled physically, I don't see it when they lose to a team they shouldn't, I don't see it much at all. No pride in wanting to succeed. Happy to take some big paychecks, happy for the stardom... But not serious about winning, whatever it takes.

I really don't understand how anyone can watch this team, particularly this year, and conclude these players are very serious about being an elite, playoff contending team. Are you not watching the complete lack of effort, the lack of compete, the lack of attention to detail?

Look, there are a bunch of people on this forum, that will say... whoa... when that overly positive, Leafs defender guy Fogelhund has had enough of this... there is a problem.

The character makeup of the team goes all the way to the top. Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner, then John Tavares and William Nylander.

Marner’s a 26 year old 8 year veteran of the game whose emotional comfort level is a human puppy. Nothing you can’t work around and be successful. But he’s not your alpha dog. My thought on him is it you can’t or won’t get rid of him he has to be shuffled away from front stage center to somewhere else where the team’s personality isn’t formed by his personality. Maybe easier said than done when it comes to the ownership of the room.

Auston Matthews is more or less a chameleon of a player who can play any way or do anything in this game he sets his mind to, or assume any personality in this game but the very opposite of an elite drive train player. I don’t think he’s a leader but can appear to play the part. I think the more he’s partnered with Marner, he absorbs more of Marner’s negative aspects and loses his own power game, leadership responsibility and lapses into that easy, soft perimeter stuff when we know he’s capable of so much more.

John Tavares is not really an emotional leader or captain but probably the quiet assistant who is beside the captain. He’s miscast, has the C for a variety of political and circumstantial reasons but he’s not going to grab someone by the scruff of the neck and demand whatever to get more out of them. That’s not him.

William Nylander is a little further down the pecking order so I place less demand on him from a leadership POV. If he was an Uber skilled point producer behind a Mackinnon and Makar you’d had no real issues with his level of leadership.

But my biggest what if is what these guys could have learned from other superstars during international tournaments. Mats Sundin elevated to an absolute superstar after being a big time producer for Sweden in 1996 in the World Cup. I think Mitch and Auston lost the opportunity in their younger years to see what level their veteran peers and guys their age group get up to. They took over the Leaf room and only had poor role models in Marleau, Thornton, etc. They never learned up close what the standard is for commitment appropriate to their status.

Maybe harsh but as the random failures and underachievement piles up you can’t help but question the guys at the very top.

 

[Nineteen67]

ROR has chased money his entire career and is not a good person... maybe no one would be his DD.

This whole thread will turn into people grasping at any invisible measure to justify why the team is bad when there aren't obvious answers...

What does chasing money have to do with his assessment of the group?

 

[andora]

ROR has chased money his entire career and is not a good person... maybe no one would be his DD.

This whole thread will turn into people grasping at any invisible measure to justify why the team is bad when there aren't obvious answers...

There have been obvious alarms for years

What does chasing money have to do with his assessment of the group?

it's all gone

 

[keonsbitterness]

I don't like agreeing with Hayes on principle, so I won't.

 

[francis246]

It’s pretty evident there are fundamental flaws in terms of character traits conducive to a Stanley Cup winning team. They lack drive, passion and accountability on a consistent, day to day basis. They take way too many nights off. Having the odd night off is acceptable. But when it becomes a pattern, it’s hard to accept or stomach.

Changes have to be made. Starts with a new coach, preferably an old school guy who’s good with systems.

Then start trading guys you feel you can’t win with. I’m a huge Marner fan, maybe among the biggest and loudest. But you can’t win with him in Toronto. He would be my vote to trade. Build around Willy and Matthews. Find a situation where Marner would move to and trade him. Maybe Vancouver, Maybe LA, Maybe San Jose, Maybe Anaheim. Rebuild your pro scouting department and set new organizational goals and standards.

If he won’t accept a trade. Eat his contract for one more year and let him walk and start fresh.

 

[SprDaVE]

I thought it didn't matter what they did in the season? Sure sounds like it does, eh?

 

[notbias]

There have been obvious alarms for years

Like?

What does chasing money have to do with his assessment of the group?

ROR gets brought up like this wise playoff warrior due to one run... why does his opinion matter?

Also, what was his quote?

I don’t think the team is bad, but I don’t think they have the guys that will even know how to win.

I equate Marner and Matthews to real good PGA tour players. They have all the talent, but not enough between the ears. They will make a bunch of money and put up some nice stats, but they will never win the big one, because they already won theirs

I think they've all shown inconsistently that they have what it takes... just as a team they've never put it together.

Time will tell, but Ovechkin was a loser til he wasn't, and most recently Eichel was.

People get reputations and they are sometimes broken.

 

[Nineteen67]

No I don’t think you can get it if you don’t have it in your makeup. Like a long distance runner becoming a sprinter. Makeup is different.

If you have the gene, you can take a few years to get it, but after what we’ve seen over a large sample size, I’d say they don’t have that intensity. They play to play.

I believe you‘re right. Matthews and Marner are great players but they’ve never shown that they’re big moment guys. They have more talent than Gilmour, but they are not nearly as good as Dougie was.

 

[Stephen]

I don’t think the team is bad, but I don’t think they have the guys that will even know how to win.

I equate Marner and Matthews to real good PGA tour players. They have all the talent, but not enough between the ears. They will make a bunch of money and put up some nice stats, but they will never win the big one, because they already won theirs

Matthews and Marner could be this eras version of Thornton Marleau, or Sedin Twins, Alfredsson Spezza, Naslund Bertuzzi.

You appreciate the stars who do put it together even more because it’s so damn hard and rare.

 

[Trapper]

The character makeup of the team goes all the way to the top. Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner, then John Tavares and William Nylander.

Marner’s a 26 year old 8 year veteran of the game whose emotional comfort level is a human puppy. Nothing you can’t work around and be successful. But he’s not your alpha dog. My thought on him is it you can’t or won’t get rid of him he has to be shuffled away from front stage center to somewhere else where the team’s personality isn’t formed by his personality. Maybe easier said than done when it comes to the ownership of the room.

Auston Matthews is more or less a chameleon of a player who can play any way or do anything in this game he sets his mind to, or assume any personality in this game but the very opposite of an elite drive train player. I don’t think he’s a leader but can appear to play the part. I think the more he’s partnered with Marner, he absorbs more of Marner’s negative aspects and loses his own power game, leadership responsibility and lapses into that easy, soft perimeter stuff when we know he’s capable of so much more.

John Tavares is not really an emotional leader or captain but probably the quiet assistant who is beside the captain. He’s miscast, has the C for a variety of political and circumstantial reasons but he’s not going to grab someone by the scruff of the neck and demand whatever to get more out of them. That’s not him.

William Nylander is a little further down the pecking order so I place less demand on him from a leadership POV. If he was an Uber skilled point producer behind a Mackinnon and Makar you’d had no real issues with his level of leadership.

But my biggest what if is what these guys could have learned from other superstars during international tournaments. Mats Sundin elevated to an absolute superstar after being a big time producer for Sweden in 1996 in the World Cup. I think Mitch and Auston lost the opportunity in their younger years to see what level their veteran peers and guys their age group get up to. They took over the Leaf room and only had poor role models in Marleau, Thornton, etc. They never learned up close what the standard is for commitment appropriate to their status.

Maybe harsh but as the random failures and underachievement piles up you can’t help but question the guys at the very top.

Good assessment.
Like you said, I think Marner is the Alpha emotional leader. The rest take that vibe.

For Matthews, yeah winning is hard work, easier to follow the leader above.

Tavares, there is a reason he has 2 playoff wins in his career. Robot.

Nylander, the best spoken of the group. Doesn’t say ridiculous things like the top guy, insult our intelligence or make excuses. Says the right things. But isn’t the Alpha here.

The last GM spent how many years trying to get this core past 1 round. Now the new guy thinks Bertuzzi, Reaves and Klingberg is what’s missing.
Sorry.

 

[rumman]

In regards as to the core: they're a joke, especially considering the talent they have. I'd much rather watch a team lose every game competitively and with effort than watch these divas float around and waste their god given talent.........

 

[Stephen]

I thought it didn't matter what they did in the season? Sure sounds like it does, eh?

Think of the Matthews and Marner narrative like a Rocky movie. Ultimate playoff success is obviously winning the big fight and taking the baddie down at the end. But you still need the montage where they eat right train right, get right and are running the steps to get to the fight to feel good they’re on the right track. Not suck on their thumbs for 8 months until they need to step in the ring.

 

[Fogelhund]

They are serious about getting an early start to the golf season


Welcome, you have seen the light

To be fair, it isn't moving far from my post season comments the last few years. We've seen all kinds of arguments about why we didn't win, and I've simply said, you need your best players, to be the best players on the ice to win when it counts. Our Best players haven't been that.

Maybe for a little bit against Tampa... and they won... but I digress.

When you have that much talent, you have to let them mature, and learn how to win... it's taken many other players years to learn that. Me personally, I've just gotten to the point when I look at them, and don't see any growth in that at all. Matthews at times last year, he showed signs of wanting to compete more. More physicality at times, better defensively... but when it really counted, he wilted. To be clear, I'm not blaming him, just stating I saw some signs of improvement.

I don't really blame management to staying with these guys either... when you are gifted this level of talent, you have to let the string play out for a bit... I guess where we differ, is when we have concluded enough is enough of these guys... and that's the challenge, you never know when players will mature into winners.

 

[andora]

Like?

read this board - objectively
it is all here

 

[Nineteen67]

ROR gets brought up like this wise playoff warrior due to one run... why does his opinion matter?

Also, what was his quote?

Because he was in the room….I said he hinted things as do people that say they’ve talked with him.

We know that this core has not risen to meet many challenges and we are trying to figure out why their performance in the tough situations has consistently been terrible.

 

[ACC1224]

read this board - objectively
it is all here

Bolded is the key for many here.

 

[ToneDog]

I thought it didn't matter what they did in the season? Sure sounds like it does, eh?

I'm sure the premise is if you make the playoffs. As it stands 5 regulation wins in 19 games doesn't pass the sniff test for many.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

I don't think our tenders could win a Calder Cup

no lies detected tbh

 

[notbias]

read this board - objectively
it is all here

So a bunch of speculation.

I just assumed obvious meant verifiably true