Sergei Zubov & Petr Nedved for Ulf Samuelsson & Luc Robataille

[NYSPORTS]

I thought he wanted to trade Leetch for Chelios.

i remember that too.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Zubov's situation was very different.

There was no way he was going be able to come back into that locker room in 1995. He'd pissed too many people off.

He then proceeded to do the same thing in Pittsburgh, which got him traded again.

It nearly happened a third time in Dallas before he "got it" and made the most of his talent.

But the Zubov that most fans remember and who put together a near HOF career was still a few years and a few teams off.

Can you elaborate on this? Was it simply his work ethic/fitness habits or was there personality clashes or specific off ice incidents?

 

[Edge]

Something to keep in mind with the Zubov deal is that Robitaille was a 29 year old LW who was a perennial 40-50 goal. 80-100 point player.

If we're looking for a somewhat similar parallel today, it would be like moving 25 year-old ADA for a 29 year old Panarin.

The difference is, imagine ADA "getting it" three years from now, and Panarin suddenly falling off a cliff during his time with us, before re-finding himself back in Columbus or Chicago.

When we take hindsight off the table, that's more or less what we're looking at with that component of the deal.

So your total deal in today's terms is something like ADA and Chytil for Panarin and McDonagh.

 

[eco's bones]

Marcel Dionne, Guy LaFleur . . . Kurri, Robitaille, Stevens, Bure . . .Lindros . . . Gretzky . . . Jagr . . . Holik, Gomez . . . Drury . . . .. everybody deserves to be a Ranger.

Stunned Joe Thorton isn’t dragging his beard around the ice for us.

A lot of these guys we got at the real tail end of their careers. Lafontaine and Fleury would be a couple others. Robitaille went on to other teams and started producing again. Lindros played for us for a while but he was damaged goods with his concussion issues. Gretzky played his last three seasons for us and most of that time he was good. Jagr played for a bunch of teams after he left us. He had a lot left in the tank still.

 

[Edge]

Can you elaborate on this? Was it simply his work ethic/fitness habits or was there personality clashes or specific off ice incidents?

All of the above.

He had a lot of work ethic/fitness issues, including chain smoking, eating habits, staying out late, etc.

This wouldn't have been a big deal, save for the fact that he was getting hurt all the time and complaining of having a bad back. There was the perception he was dogging it and it didn't sit right with certain guys who were watching Larmer and Graves go out there and battle with bad backs, or Leetch having to pick up even more slack and run himself into the ground.

There was tension with the coaching staff, the training staff, teammates, etc. The boiling point came when Steve Larmer threatened to knock him on his ass during a practice if he didn't get his shit together.

Contrary to popular belief, the most damning internal relationship to impact Zubov was not Messier. It was Leetch, Lowe and Larmer.

 

[NYSPORTS]

A lot of these guys we got at the real tail end of their careers. Lafontaine and Fleury would be a couple others. Robitaille went on to other teams and started producing again. Lindros played for us for a while but he was damaged goods with his concussion issues. Gretzky played his last three seasons for us and most of that time he was good. Jagr played for a bunch of teams after he left us. He had a lot left in the tank still.

lol - Lafontaine and Fleury . . . keep them coming. It's a library of hockey greats skating for the blueshirts with one skate already in the hockey grave.

 

[eco's bones]

I would say no.

I think they've would've been more skilled, but I don't think they would've had the right mix just with those two guys to get another cup.

I'd venture that if not traded to Pittsburgh, both guys would've went elsewhere sooner rather than later.

I think there are many reasons the Rangers didn't win more cups in the 90s:

The emergence of Philly in the east, and Detroit and Colorado in the west.

The sheer amount of young talent they traded away between 1993 and 1996.

Not necessarily getting the right guys in return. You could argue the moves they balked at are just as bad as the ones they made - including missing out on guys like Pronger, Shanahan and a few others.

I think you can make the argument that gambling on keeping Kovalev hurt them over the long haul.

But I honestly believe the turning point started in 1993 and 1994 when they moved Weight and Amonte. Those two guys were already producing for them and went on to score a nearly 2,000 points combined.

To me Noonan and Matteau for Amonte was key to us winning the cup. The Gartner-Anderson deal not really. Craig MacTavish for Todd Marchant was helpful even though Marchant would be a very good player for years and years after. The early season trade of Patrick and Turcotte for Larmer was important for us too.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Something to keep in mind with the Zubov deal is that Robitaille was a 29 year old LW who was a perennial 40-50 goal. 80-100 point player.

If we're looking for a somewhat similar parallel today, it would be like moving 25 year-old ADA for a 29 year old Panarin.

The difference is, imagine ADA "getting it" three years from now, and Panarin suddenly falling off a cliff during his time with us, before re-finding himself back in Columbus or Chicago.

When we take hindsight off the table, that's more or less what we're looking at with that component of the deal.

So your total deal in today's terms is something like ADA and Chytil for Panarin and McDonagh.

With that said, I initially was ok with the trade back when it happened, because I happened to love Ulf Samuelsson & Robitaille was a goal scoring machine....until he got here. Losing Zubie hurt, but it was clear in the '95 playoffs that we needed to toughen up on D when he was targeted pretty hard by not only Philly, but Quebec as well.

Ulfie was a good Ranger for the rest of his contract, but Robitaille showed pretty quickly he wasn't built for Eastern Conference hockey unless Mario was feeding him the puck 3 feet from the net. His lack of foot speed was really exposed. I had no idea someone could score as many goals in the NHL & skate like a beer leaguer until I saw Lucky day in & day out.

 

[NYSPORTS]

All of the above.

He had a lot of work ethic/fitness issues, including chain smoking, eating habits, staying out late, etc.

This wouldn't have been a big deal, save for the fact that he was getting hurt all the time and complaining of having a bad back. There was the perception he was doing it and it didn't sit right with certain guys who were watching Larmer and Graves go out there and battle with bad backs, or Leetch having to pick up even more slack and run himself into the ground.

There was tension with the coaching staff, the training staff, teammates, etc. The boiling point came when Steve Larmer threatened to knock him on his ass during a practice if he didn't get this shit together.

Contrary to popular belief, the most damning internal relationship to impact Zubov was not Messier. It was Leetch, Lowe and Larmer.

hmm, did not know that.

 

[NYSPORTS]

. . . so when do we get Stamkos?

 

[Boris Zubov]

All of the above.

He had a lot of work ethic/fitness issues, including chain smoking, eating habits, staying out late, etc.

This wouldn't have been a big deal, save for the fact that he was getting hurt all the time and complaining of having a bad back. There was the perception he was doing it and it didn't sit right with certain guys who were watching Larmer and Graves go out there and battle with bad backs, or Leetch having to pick up even more slack and run himself into the ground.

There was tension with the coaching staff, the training staff, teammates, etc. The boiling point came when Steve Larmer threatened to knock him on his ass during a practice if he didn't get this shit together.

Contrary to popular belief, the most damning internal relationship to impact Zubov was not Messier. It was Leetch, Lowe and Larmer.

Interesting. Back then it was so much easier to keep a lid on all those internal issues where today we would all know about it 3 hours after it happened.

Ironic that Larmer who was also a chain smoker stepped up to question his passion. Doesn't surprise me, being a guy who never missed a game in his career until the contract impasse with the Hawks which led to the trade with us.

 

[Edge]

hmm, did not know that.

Some of Zubov's trials and tribulations were chronicled in the book "Losing the Edge."

It's an invaluable resource when looking into not only the Rangers of that era, but the league as a whole.

Zubov is a particularly interesting subject because there's this whole mythos that has sprung up around him that really doesn't align with what was going on at the time.

I think the perception is that we moved a 22 year old for a washed up 34 year old, and the 22 year went on to have a HOF caliber career.

And the truth is a lot more complicated that than.

One might even argue that Zubov's journey isn't all that dissimilar than Miller's.

 

[Edge]

Interesting. Back then it was so much easier to keep a lid on all those internal issues where today we would all know about it 3 hours after it happened.

Ironic that Larmer who was also a chain smoker stepped up to question his passion. Doesn't surprise me, being a guy who never missed a game in his career until the contract impasse with the Hawks which led to the trade with us.

I think the message was, "You can do whatever you want off the ice, but you better f***ing show up on game days and you better not make others have to compensate for your off-ice choices. Some of us are a decade older than you, and our bodies are giving out on us. You have no excuse."

In fairness to Zubov, in today's world I think we'd probably understand that he was having some mental health challenges as well. But it was 1995 and that just wasn't on too many radars then.

 

[NYSPORTS]

I think the perception is that we moved a 22 year old for a washed up 34 year old, and the 22 year went on to have a HOF caliber career.

who does that?

oh wait, the Mets traded 18 year old Kelenic for 37 yr old Cano coming off a steroid suspension . . . but that’s another horror story in the writing.

 

[eco's bones]

Zubov played the first couple games of 93-94 in Binghamton. I remember seeing him there.

 

[Edge]

With that said, I initially was ok with the trade back when it happened, because I happened to love Ulf Samuelsson & Robitaille was a goal scoring machine....until he got here. Losing Zubie hurt, but it was clear in the '95 playoffs that we needed to toughen up on D when he was targeted pretty hard by not only Philly, but Quebec as well.

Ulfie was a good Ranger for the rest of his contract, but Robitaille showed pretty quickly he wasn't built for Eastern Conference hockey unless Mario was feeding him the puck 3 feet from the net. His lack of foot speed was really exposed. I had no idea someone could score as many goals in the NHL & skate like a beer leaguer until I saw Lucky day in & day out.

I always felt Robitaille not working out here owed a lot to Colin Campbell.

Campbell wasn't crazy about Robitaille and actually let him know pretty early on he didn't want him here.

If I remember correctly, he had something like 13 goals in his first 31 games as a second line LW. And then there was supposedly a conversation with Campbell in mid-December that just f***ed their relationship from that point forward.

But I also think Ferraro probably wasn't the best choice of a center for him --- being more of a shooting center rather than a playmaking one. Additionally, Graves and Messier weren't going anywhere from the top Powerplay unit, so that probably cut into some offensive production as well.

You start adding all those elements together and it feels like a move that was destined to fail.

 

[NYSPORTS]

I think the message was, "You can do whatever you want off the ice, but you better f***ing show up on game days and you better not make others have to compensate for your off-ice choices. Some of us are a decade older than you, and our bodies are giving out on us. You have no excuse."

In fairness to Zubov, in today's world I think we'd probably understand that he was having some mental health challenges as well. But it was 1995 and that just wasn't on too many radars then.

well, didn’t Brian Leetch have a few too many drinks and fell out of a cab in 93?

 

[Edge]

well, didn’t Brian Leetch have a few too many drinks and fell out of a cab in 93?

He did. I'd say the key difference was that Leetch worked his ass off on the ice and had the trust of his teammates.

When your teammates don't trust you, it doesn't matter how talented you are --- your days are probably numbered in that locker room.

Which we're seeing right now.

 

[NYSPORTS]

He did. I'd say the key difference was that Leetch worked his ass off on the ice and had the trust of his teammates.

When your teammates don't trust you, it doesn't matter how talented you are --- your days are probably numbered in that locker room.

Which we're seeing right now.

i get it.

Let’s hope the Rangers don’t repeat history with this group b/c this is best potential rebuild i’ve ever seen the Rangers make.

Thankful NYC is still pretty closed up.

 

[Edge]

i get it.

Let’s hope the Rangers don’t repeat history with this group b/c this is best potential rebuild i’ve ever seen the Rangers make.

Thankful NYC is still pretty closed up.

Best organizational depth I've seen since 1991.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Best organizational depth I've seen since 1991.

oh, it’s deeper than that IMO. It had better be. A lot of names out there. Although Center is light.

 

[SML2]

Those late trades were the hallmark of a GM trying to save his skin. It's like watching some restaurant swirl the drain while they advertise $3.99 spaghetti and meatballs like it's going to magically turn everything about their shitty place around.
It was the beginning of a long painful end. The days when every off-season we brought in whatever mercenary decided to leave his teammates behind in search of a paycheck. Those teams didn't even like each other. As the saying went, "20 limos show up before the game, then 20 limos leave after" God Damn it was hard to be a fan of this team back then.

 

[Hitch16]

oh, it’s deeper than that IMO. It had better be. A lot of names out there. Although Center is light.

Any thoughts on how we use our depth to balance the center position? I am asking because I am not plugged in on what young centers could be available. You guys always have great suggestions.

On edit: I am probably off topic so apologies.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Didn't Keenan clown around and claim he wanted to trade Leetch for Stu Grimson? (someone already pointed that out).

Keenan felt that the playoffs were literal war and Gartner (especially Gartner) and Amonte weren't warriors. He was kind of right though, the Devils were beasts, and got better; this was their only shot. The Devils wrecked skilled teams all throughout the 90s.

Your broader point still stands, but just to be pedantic, the bolded isn't strictly true. The Devils won the cup in 95, but then missed the playoffs (96), lost to the Rangers in rd2 (97), lost to the senators in rd1 (98), and lost to the Penguins in rd1 (99) to close out the 90s.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Any thoughts on how we use our depth to balance the center position? I am asking because I am not plugged in on what young centers could be available. You guys always have great suggestions.

On edit: I am probably off topic so apologies.

nope, i can only guess.