Sergei Zubov & Petr Nedved for Ulf Samuelsson & Luc Robataille

[eco's bones]

We basically had three very different guys with different motives running the team. You had Smith as the GM, Messier as the coach, and Keenan as Keenan.

The worst was Keenan--the story was early on he wanted to trade Leetch for the grim reaper Stu Grimson. That happens---no Stanley Cup. We would have beaten up a lot of other teams though with Grimson and Kocur.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Do you forget exactly how big game Glen Anderson was in the Finals? And that Bern would have sought options consisting of future considerations and high picks from the 1993 draft?

Anderson scored 1 big goal in the Finals. He was a non factor for most of the playoffs. As much as he was a great career playoff player, he was superfluous on that '94 team.

 

[Machinehead]

To be fair, that Larmer, Matteau, Kovalev line was really effective throughout most of the playoffs when Keenan had them together.

That's true but I thought Larmer played center for them more often than not, even though he was also a natural winger. I could be misremembering.

The worst was Keenan--the story was early on he wanted to trade Leetch for the grim reaper Stu Grimson. That happens---no Stanley Cup. We would have beaten up a lot of other teams though with Grimson and Kocur.

Yeah, not even close. Leetch carried us to that Stanley Cup. Even if he was just normal Leetch instead of the best Leetch ever played, these trades might be looked at with a lot more scrutiny.

He scored at a 121 point pace in the playoffs. I put Leetch in '94 up against any Conn Smythe performance in the history of the game.

 

[DialUp]

Keenan didn't like Amonte, Gartner, James Patrick, Turcotte, Olczyk and a bunch of others. He didn't like Leetch at first either and he didn't like Neil Smith and was always going behind his back to higher ups. So that dynamic was in play too. Noonan and Matteau were good foot soldier types and Larmer was a productive, gritty and highly intelligent player---Keenan had coached them all. On the other hand was the Oilers contingent that made Messier feel better---not just Graves and Beukeboom but Lowe, Tikkanen, Anderson, MacTavish and after that season would come even a few more.

I don't know how it might have worked out if we hadn't moved Amonte, Gartner or Patrick but Keenan treated them all like shit and it's possible that somehow things would have blown up without those moves. Personally Patrick and Turcotte for Larmer wasn't bad. Larmer was getting on a bit but he was a no nonsense highly intelligent player kind of Justin Williams ++. He oozed hockey sense and leadership ability. The one I feel really got screwed over was Gartner.

Didn't Keenan clown around and claim he wanted to trade Leetch for Stu Grimson? (someone already pointed that out).

Keenan felt that the playoffs were literal war and Gartner (especially Gartner) and Amonte weren't warriors. He was kind of right though, the Devils were beasts, and got better; this was their only shot. The Devils wrecked skilled teams all throughout the 90s.

 

[Boris Zubov]

That's true but I thought Larmer played center for them more often than not, even though he was also a natural winger. I could be misremembering.

I seem to recall Kovalev taking the majority of the draws for that line. Plus it didn't really matter there was no natural C with the style they were playing...somehow they just really worked well together.

During game 2 vs Washington that line scored 2 quick goals within a minute in the 3rd period. It was one of loudest moments at MSG for that entire run. At that point, the team still hadn't lost yet in the playoffs & the energy was palpable. I remember it like it was yesterday...had chills down my spine.

 

[Edge]

I would say no.

I think they've would've been more skilled, but I don't think they would've had the right mix just with those two guys to get another cup.

I'd venture that if not traded to Pittsburgh, both guys would've went elsewhere sooner rather than later.

I think there are many reasons the Rangers didn't win more cups in the 90s:

The emergence of Philly in the east, and Detroit and Colorado in the west.

The sheer amount of young talent they traded away between 1993 and 1996.

Not necessarily getting the right guys in return. You could argue the moves they balked at are just as bad as the ones they made - including missing out on guys like Pronger, Shanahan and a few others.

I think you can make the argument that gambling on keeping Kovalev hurt them over the long haul.

But I honestly believe the turning point started in 1993 and 1994 when they moved Weight and Amonte. Those two guys were already producing for them and went on to score a nearly 2,000 points combined.

 

[SML2]

Anderson scored 1 big goal in the Finals. He was a non factor for most of the playoffs. As much as he was a great career playoff player, he was superfluous on that '94 team.

I know I am getting old but I thought he scored game winning goals in the finals.

 

[DialUp]

Noonan did score the 3rd goal in game 7 attributed to Messier. So there is that.

 

[bernmeister]

Like his kindred spirit Art Howe in baseball, Keenan was overrated as a coach, and did all kinds of short term win now moves.

A bird in hand may be worth more than 2 in the bush...
but.......
what about 3,4,5,or even 6?

From a tactical x and o standpoint, Keenan was not God's gift to hockey.

If we had alternate scenarios to get Samuelson and Larmer, that prob would have been enuf in the short run.

And longer view, we could have rode Richter and had mo betta shots for perhaps another 5 yrs

 

[bernmeister]

Do you forget exactly how big game Glen Anderson was in the Finals? And that Bern would have sought options consisting of future considerations and high picks from the 1993 draft?

Let's not jump to conclusions.

The worst was Keenan--the story was early on he wanted to trade Leetch for the grim reaper Stu Grimson. That happens---no Stanley Cup. We would have beaten up a lot of other teams though with Grimson and Kocur.

rest my case that K was overrated

 

[Machinehead]

I seem to recall Kovalev taking the majority of the draws for that line. Plus it didn't really matter there was no natural C with the style they were playing...somehow they just really worked well together.

During game 2 vs Washington that line scored 2 quick goals within a minute in the 3rd period. It was one of loudest moments at MSG for that entire run. At that point, the team still hadn't lost yet in the playoffs & the energy was palpable. I remember it like it was yesterday...had chills down my spine.

Imagine dominating in the playoffs instead of that trading 2-1 wins shit.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Didn't Keenan clown around and claim he wanted to trade Leetch for Stu Grimson?

Keenan felt that the playoffs were literal war and Gartner (especially Gartner) and Amonte weren't warriors. He was kind of right though, the Devils were beasts, and got better; this was their only shot. The Devils wrecked skilled teams all throughout the 90s.

Amonte & Gartner's speed was a main reason the Rangers had so much success against NJ during the regular season. They were able to negate the trap through the neutral zone & make the Devils play our style instead of theirs.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Imagine dominating in the playoffs instead of that trading 2-1 wins shit.

It didn't feel real then & still doesn't now. To this day I've seen very few hockey players on the level Brian Leetch played for those 2 months. It really was magical.

 

[SML2]

Didn't Keenan clown around and claim he wanted to trade Leetch for Stu Grimson? (someone already pointed that out).

Keenan felt that the playoffs were literal war and Gartner (especially Gartner) and Amonte weren't warriors. He was kind of right though, the Devils were beasts, and got better; this was their only shot. The Devils wrecked skilled teams all throughout the 90s.

I thought he wanted to trade Leetch for Chelios.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I know I am getting old but I thought he scored game winning goals in the finals.

Definitely Game 2. If he had the winner in Game 3, it was kind of a footnote as the Rangers dominated as soon as Bure got the gate for high sticking Jay Wells.

 

[Machinehead]

It didn't feel real then & still doesn't now. To this day I've seen very few hockey players on the level Brian Leetch played for those 2 months. It really was magical.

This thread has me watching some videos and it's just like "oh, there's Leetch again."

 

[Machinehead]

Anderson did get the winner in game 3, I just saw it!

 

[SML2]

It didn't feel real then & still doesn't now. To this day I've seen very few hockey players on the level Brian Leetch played for those 2 months. It really was magical.

That playoff was the best I have ever seen a player have. Just phenomenal at both ends. You hear about Orr controlling a game. I missed Orr. But for one magic spring, Brian Leetch was just amazing.

 

[SML2]

Definitely Game 2. If he had the winner in Game 3, it was kind of a footnote as the Rangers dominated as soon as Bure got the gate for high sticking Jay Wells.

Game winning goals in the Finals are no footnote, and he scored 2 for us.

 

[SML2]

Let's not jump to conclusions.




rest my case that K was overrated

I don't mean to say all Bern proposals are alike, but here's the brush I paint them with.

 

[DialUp]

I thought he wanted to trade Leetch for Chelios.

For sure that too.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Game winning goals in the Finals are no footnote, and he scored 2 for us.

I think you're overstating things, but I get your point. But honestly he really didn't have much of an effect on the series other than his mom making salmon sandwiches for the entire team when they arrived in Vancouver!

 

[bernmeister]

I don't mean to say all Bern proposals are alike, but here's the brush I paint them with.View attachment 404817

If those are your tools, master painter, Raphael and Michelangelo have no worries. For sure.

 

[pld459666]

Do you forget exactly how big game Glen Anderson was in the Finals? And that Bern would have sought options consisting of future considerations and high picks from the 1993 draft?

We moved two of the fastest players in the league. Guys that were 30 and 40 goal threats for slugs.

We became plodding and predictable and I'd say EASIER to play against.

Its all water under the bridge now, but I think the Rangers made their road to the cup harder with those trades

 

[Hitch16]

In some respects after the '94 Cup it really was Messier's team. If he didn't like somebody they were gone. In this case it was Nedved but he wasn't the only one---Ray Ferraro for instance would be another or it could be a case of an old friend of Messier's coming this way like Jari Kurri or Marty McSorley--both of whom when they got here were pretty much useless. Post Stanley Cup Messier had an influence on a lot that went on.

This was a great post. Was there an issue with Ferraro and Messier? I thought that season (95-96) Ray was a great 2C option behind Messier and that trade actually unbalanced the roster. Holding onto Laperriere and we still had Momesso and Langdon (who I believe Messier liked) as physical players.