Sergei Zubov & Petr Nedved for Ulf Samuelsson & Luc Robataille

[FoxyClean]

Do the Rangers win another Cup in the 90s if not for this trade?

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[Boris Zubov]

Do the Rangers win another Cup in the 90s if not for this trade?

Short answer...maybe. This was just one of a string of bad trades that started when Smith began assembling vets for young talent. Started with Weight, then Amonte, then Zubie & finally Mattias Norstrom. I wasn't a huge Nedved fan, but he wasn't given a fair shake by Messier, so there's another young guy shipped out. Didn't help that most of the vets that came back in those trades were complete flops on Broadway...Robitaille was particularly bad.

As good as Neil Smith was at assembling the roster for the first 2-3 years on the job, it seemed like he lost his touch almost overnight. The only trades that really worked out for us from 95-97 was the Pat Verbeek deal & the one for Ian Laperrier. But he even managed to screw that up by dealing Laperrier away about 2 months later.

To top it all off, Colin Campbell was an awful coach. Bottom line is, so many things went wrong after we won in '94. Really hurts to look back & wonder what if...

 

[Elliman]

Should have kept Gartner.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

I was literally just thinking about this a few nights ago because I was watching highlights from their 97 run. I don't get how trading Zubov made sense now or back then. Not even just if we won another cup in the 90's, imagine he was still around in the Jagr era with us.

 

[eco's bones]

In some respects after the '94 Cup it really was Messier's team. If he didn't like somebody they were gone. In this case it was Nedved but he wasn't the only one---Ray Ferraro for instance would be another or it could be a case of an old friend of Messier's coming this way like Jari Kurri or Marty McSorley--both of whom when they got here were pretty much useless. Post Stanley Cup Messier had an influence on a lot that went on.

Could they have won another Cup? Maybe but unless you had back then a team like the Oilers that had several superstars winning a Cup like today depends a lot on timing and a lot on luck. You need to bulk up your roster for the long run--you need to stay away from injuries to key players, you need puck bounces and referee calls at the right times. All those things often mean the difference between winning and losing. For the Rangers in '94 sweeping through the Islanders and Capitals in the first two rounds meant bringing an intact and rested team into the conference finals against the Devils. There is no doubt how instrumental Messier was in bringing that Cup to New York in '94 and we would not have gotten through the Devils without him and it's even questionable that Mike Keenan would have blown it with his own coaching if Messier and others hadn't stepped into intervene and I'm citing Barry Meisel's book on that season.

The '94 Rangers team also was a really nasty team to play against. People remember mostly Messier, Leetch, Richter and Graves but it was a team that got down and dirty all the time. It was a different era for sure but even today if you don't have size and physical players on your team in the playoffs you're not going to win no matter how much talent you have......and it's a lot harder these days to have and hold on to talent with the cap.

 

[SML2]

That trade was a direct reflection of the panic the league went into when the Legion of Doom ran through the league. Zubov in particular was physically hammered on and it looked like the guy wasn't going to make it, and Messier had a personal dislike for Needed that never was fully explained. They retooled to try to prepare for the eventual meetup with the Flyers on the road out of the East. In hindsight, you obviously don't trade Zubov. In the moment he looked like a typewriter sitting on a desk next to a laptop. You make that move everyday. You never think that the power is going to go out long term and you'd rather have the typewriter.

 

[SML2]

In some respects after the '94 Cup it really was Messier's team. If he didn't like somebody they were gone. In this case it was Nedved but he wasn't the only one---Ray Ferraro for instance would be another or it could be a case of an old friend of Messier's coming this way like Jari Kurri or Marty McSorley--both of whom when they got here were pretty much useless. Post Stanley Cup Messier had an influence on a lot that went on.

Could they have won another Cup? Maybe but unless you had back then a team like the Oilers that had several superstars winning a Cup like today depends a lot on timing and a lot on luck. You need to bulk up your roster for the long run--you need to stay away from injuries to key players, you need puck bounces and referee calls at the right times. All those things often mean the difference between winning and losing. For the Rangers in '94 sweeping through the Islanders and Capitals in the first two rounds meant bringing an intact and rested team into the conference finals against the Devils. There is no doubt how instrumental Messier was in bringing that Cup to New York in '94 and we would not have gotten through the Devils without him and it's even questionable that Mike Keenan would have blown it with his own coaching if Messier and others hadn't stepped into intervene and I'm citing Barry Meisel's book on that season.

The '94 Rangers team also was a really nasty team to play against. People remember mostly Messier, Leetch, Richter and Graves but it was a team that got down and dirty all the time. It was a different era for sure but even today if you don't have size and physical players on your team in the playoffs you're not going to win no matter how much talent you have......and it's a lot harder these days to have and hold on to talent with the cap.

The 94 team was tough not only in the way of dishing it out, but you could beat those guys with a stick all day and they weren't going to stop coming at you. Sandpaper AF. Jay Wells, Glenn Anderson, Tikkanen, Kevin Lowe, Gilbert, Larmer... The roster isn't that impressive outside the 5 guys until you put them on the ice. Then they look like one of the gangs in the opening scene of Gangs of New York. Recipe: 2 superstars in Leetch and Messier, 2 really good players in Graves and Kovalev, a goalie you can count on in Richter, a guy who wakes up in the post season with a cape on in Anderson, and a whole bucket of sand and rock salt.

 

[bernmeister]

Short answer...maybe. This was just one of a string of bad trades that started when Smith began assembling vets for young talent. Started with Weight, then Amonte, then Zubie & finally Mattias Norstrom. I wasn't a huge Nedved fan, but he wasn't given a fair shake by Messier, so there's another young guy shipped out. Didn't help that most of the vets that came back in those trades were complete flops on Broadway...Robitaille was particularly bad.

As good as Neil Smith was at assembling the roster for the first 2-3 years on the job, it seemed like he lost his touch almost overnight. The only trades that really worked out for us from 95-97 was the Pat Verbeek deal & the one for Ian Laperrier. But he even managed to screw that up by dealing Laperrier away about 2 months later.

To top it all off, Colin Campbell was an awful coach. Bottom line is, so many things went wrong after we won in '94. Really hurts to look back & wonder what if...

Should have kept Gartner.

Don't remember all the deals.
Do remember Mattias Norstrom to LA and that was short term win now disaster.
Would not have done Gartner for Andersson.
Would not have done Amonte for Noonan + Matteau (Matteau! Matteau!!)

Would have kept Zubov.
Would have tried other options to get Sammy.
Would have tried other options for grit.

 

[Hitch16]

If you have some time, give this a listen
https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/up-in...e-20-finally-winning-the-cup-feat-neil-smith/

Neil broaches a lot of what you posted above. Zubov against the Flyers was a valid factor and he acknowledges the Norstrom, Lapierriere trades.

I am going to age myself here but that trade with Kurri, McSorely, and Chara. It was 96 before iPhones and 24/7 access. I was on Spring Break during the trading deadline in Mexico. I got a quick opportunity to watch Sportscenter and they briefly showed NHL highlights and while watching, I had no idea a trade happened. All of a sudden I thought I saw Jari Kurri in a Ranger sweater skate by and without the ability to pause or rewind, I had to wonder if what I saw was real.

 

[eco's bones]

Robitaille should have been a lot better for us than he was. His two seasons with the Rangers might have been the two worst seasons he ever had. Don't know why but he just didn't click here.

 

[SML2]

Don't remember all the deals.
Do remember Mattias Norstrom to LA and that was short term win now disaster.
Would not have done Gartner for Andersson.
Would not have done Amonte for Noonan + Matteau (Matteau! Matteau!!)

Would have kept Zubov.
Would have tried other options to get Sammy.
Would have tried other options for grit.

Would have been 81 years without a cup.

 

[bernmeister]

Would have been 81 years without a cup.

I'm not so sure.
If we kept my lineup, all we would have needed was some extra grit.
Now I agree, there's grit and then there's grit.

But I find it hard to believe that we sacrificed SO much quality for a return that could not have been cheaper.

anyhoo ancient history now, but good one OP for trip down mem lane

 

[Heckler81]

I'm not so sure.
If we kept my lineup, all we would have needed was some extra grit.
Now I agree, there's grit and then there's grit.

But I find it hard to believe that we sacrificed SO much quality for a return that could not have been cheaper.

anyhoo ancient history now, but good one OP for trip down mem lane

Can’t assume that.

It is really hard to win a cup. It’s not just what names are written on paper that decides. You need luck too while being good.

A lot of the trades look bad if we didnt win the cup. The point is, we did. I wouldn’t change anything for that magical 94 run.

 

[Machinehead]

Probably.

Definitely if they undo all of the silly trades they made in '94.

The Flyers never won the Cup and went to the Finals once. We met them twice and they kicked the shit out of us anyway. 8 games to 1. We panicked for no reason.

 

[True Blue]

Do the Rangers win another Cup in the 90s if not for this trade?

In and of itself, no

 

[Blais to Win]

The King+Domi for Olczyk trade was a loss. Could have kept their grit and Olczyk provided nothing in 94, anyway.

 

[SML2]

Robitaille should have been a lot better for us than he was. His two seasons with the Rangers might have been the two worst seasons he ever had. Don't know why but he just didn't click here.

The only time Lucky Luc was unlucky was in a Rangers sweater.

 

[SML2]

The King+Domi for Olczyk trade was a loss. Could have kept their grit and Olczyk provided nothing in 94, anyway.

I don't think I was ever more pissed off about a trade.

 

[pld459666]

Would have been 81 years without a cup.

Disagree.

I think we walk the debbies in 5 and Vancouver in 4 with Amonte and Gartner.

 

[Sayba]

To make it worse we then traded Kovalev back for Nedved.

 

[Machinehead]

Lines for game 7 against the Canucks:

Graves-Messier-Anderson
Matteau-Kovalev-Larmer
Tikkanen-MacTavish-Noonan
Gilbert-Nemchinov-Kypreos

(Yes, Kovalev was playing center. We were getting full-force Keenan chicanery in game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals.)

Lines, roughly, before the trade deadline:

Graves-Messier-Gartner
Tikkanen-Larmer-Kovalev
Revolving Door-Nemchinov-Amonte
Gilbert-Hudson-Kocur

As you can see, Matteau actually made a lot of sense, but Amonte was quite a price to pay. Gartner for Anderson was a 1:1 downgrade and an old boys move.

 

[SML2]

Disagree.

I think we walk the debbies in 5 and Vancouver in 4 with Amonte and Gartner.

Do you forget exactly how big game Glen Anderson was in the Finals? And that Bern would have sought options consisting of future considerations and high picks from the 1993 draft?

 

[eco's bones]

Keenan didn't like Amonte, Gartner, James Patrick, Turcotte, Olczyk and a bunch of others. He didn't like Leetch at first either and he didn't like Neil Smith and was always going behind his back to higher ups. So that dynamic was in play too. Noonan and Matteau were good foot soldier types and Larmer was a productive, gritty and highly intelligent player---Keenan had coached them all. On the other hand was the Oilers contingent that made Messier feel better---not just Graves and Beukeboom but Lowe, Tikkanen, Anderson, MacTavish and after that season would come even a few more.

I don't know how it might have worked out if we hadn't moved Amonte, Gartner or Patrick but Keenan treated them all like shit and it's possible that somehow things would have blown up without those moves. Personally Patrick and Turcotte for Larmer wasn't bad. Larmer was getting on a bit but he was a no nonsense highly intelligent player kind of Justin Williams ++. He oozed hockey sense and leadership ability. The one I feel really got screwed over was Gartner.

 

[Machinehead]

Keenan didn't like Amonte, Gartner, James Patrick, Turcotte, Olczyk and a bunch of others. He didn't like Leetch at first either and he didn't like Neil Smith and was always going behind his back to higher ups. So that dynamic was in play too. Noonan and Matteau were good foot soldier types and Larmer was a productive, gritty and highly intelligent player---Keenan had coached them all. On the other hand was the Oilers contingent that made Messier feel better---not just Graves and Beukeboom but Lowe, Tikkanen, Anderson, MacTavish and after that season would come even a few more.

I don't know how it might have worked out if we hadn't moved Amonte, Gartner or Patrick but Keenan treated them all like shit and it's possible that somehow things would have blown up without those moves. Personally Patrick and Turcotte for Larmer wasn't bad. Larmer was getting on a bit but he was a no nonsense highly intelligent player kind of Justin Williams ++. He oozed hockey sense and leadership ability. The one I feel really got screwed over was Gartner.

We basically had three very different guys with different motives running the team. You had Smith as the GM, Messier as the coach, and Keenan as Keenan.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Lines for game 7 against the Canucks:

Graves-Messier-Anderson
Matteau-Kovalev-Larmer
Tikkanen-MacTavish-Noonan
Gilbert-Nemchinov-Kypreos

(Yes, Kovalev was playing center. We were getting full-force Keenan chicanery in game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals.)

Lines, roughly, before the trade deadline:

Graves-Messier-Gartner
Tikkanen-Larmer-Kovalev
Revolving Door-Nemchinov-Amonte
Gilbert-Hudson-Kocur

As you can see, Matteau actually made a lot of sense, but Amonte was quite a price to pay. Gartner for Anderson was a 1:1 downgrade and an old boys move.

To be fair, that Larmer, Matteau, Kovalev line was really effective throughout most of the playoffs when Keenan had them together.