OT: Sens Lounge -The four seasons edition

[jbeck5]

I think part of it is the demographic that loves ports cars also loves the roar of the engine, which is notably absent from EVs...
Also, you probably don't get to tinker with an EV as much, can't change out the air intake to take out an extra 20 HP or whatever.

I get that for sure. That is definitely a factor.

But there are still plenty of enthusiasts that keep the car stock. Especially on any new car since it can affect the warranties.

Like my uncle got a new Corvette a couple years ago. The first year they switched over to mid engine (2022?). My buddy from highschool saved up until he bought a used Porsche 911 for like 60 grand and hasn't done anything other than rims to it.

Those enthusiasts are still wanting sportscars and aren't into all that tuning.

What are they going to get if they want electric? A family car? They don't want all that extra space and weight when they're always driving it alone.

 

[Micklebot]

I get that for sure. That is definitely a factor.

But there are still plenty of enthusiasts that keep the car stock. Especially on any new car since it can affect the warranties.

Like my uncle got a new Corvette a couple years ago. The first year they switched over to mid engine (2022?). My buddy from highschool saved up until he bought a used Porsche 911 for like 60 grand and hasn't done anything other than rims to it.

Those enthusiasts are still wanting sportscars and aren't into all that tuning.

What are they going to get if they want electric? A family car? They don't want all that extra space and weight when they're always driving it alone.

Right, but those enthusiasts aren't looking for a car for 10k,

Porsche offers the Taycan, BMW the i4, Kia replaced the stinger in it's lineup with the EV6 Gt, Acura has the new zdx coming in spring, but a lot of these are more sports crossovers, like the Mustang

I suspect that with EVs already being a bit of a niche market, few manufacturers want to double down for niche within a niche

Edit, Toyota looks like they'll be releasing the FT-SE in a few years and it seems to be right in the wheelhouse, but the price point will likely be stupid and start at the top end of what a C8 Vette costs

Speaking of the C8, there's a hybrid version called the e-ray, probably means a full electric version will eventually come....just checked, it's already confirmed for 2025

 

[jbeck5]

Right, but those enthusiasts aren't looking for a car for 10k,

Porsche offers the Taycan, BMW the i4, Kia replaced the stinger in it's lineup with the EV6 Gt, Acura has the new zdx coming in spring, but a lot of these are more sports crossovers, like the Mustang

I suspect that with EVs already being a bit of a niche market, few manufacturers want to double down for niche within a niche

Edit, Toyota looks like they'll be releasing the FT-SE in a few years and it seems to be right in the wheelhouse, but the price point will likely be stupid and start at the top end of what a C8 Vette costs

Speaking of the C8, there's a hybrid version called the e-ray, probably means a full electric version will eventually come....

The 10k part was how there was no affordable sportscars in the used market.

Then I made an additional point that there isn't any affordable new ones, giving an example that there are people who want new sportscars.

Everything you listed is a 4 door family sedan/crossover/SUV.

Not one option was a 2 door RWD sportscar.

So to recap there's points:

1) no affordable/cheap used market similar to ice. My prediction is it will be more than 30 years before there's cheap electric low mileage RWD cars on the used market

2) there aren't even any affordable new RWD 2 door fully eclectic sportscar. Any under 100k?

 

[Micklebot]

The 10k part was how there was no affordable sportscars in the used market.

Then I made an additional point that there isn't any affordable new ones, giving an example that there are people who want new sportscars.

Everything you listed is a 4 door family sedan/crossover/SUV.

Not one option was a 2 door RWD sportscar.

C8 and FT-SE are definitely not family sedans, and porshe has apparently been considering a coupe variant of the Taycan

I think the bigger problem is two door vehicles are dwindling in numbers across the board,

Miata is apparently getting an EV next year, but it's not clear if it will be a Bev, or hybrid.

 

[jbeck5]

C8 and FT-SE are definitely not family sedans, and porshe has apparently been considering a coupe variant of the Taycan

I think the bigger problem is two door vehicles are dwindling in numbers across the board,

Miata is apparently getting an EV next year, but it's not clear if it will be a Bev, or hybrid.

Sorry, I noticed the first few and probably got lazy with my reading, but those are still concepts...and the corvette e ray comes with 6.2 V8.

The market is shrinking but I feel like a lot of that is due to lack of options.

I feel like with so many people having multiple cars, and one of them being an AWD SUV, it makes more sense than ever to have a fun and light car to make the drives more enjoyable. Especially considering the majority of cars on the road only have 1 person in them.

The Miata is interesting. I've never been a convertible guy so I would go hard top.

If they can deliver a fun little nimble lightweight car with quick acceleration and an affordable price tag, I'm all in.

Not if they make it like 10k more expensive and add like 500 pounds or whatever...but still better than no options.

 

[Micklebot]

Sorry, I noticed the first few and probably got lazy with my reading, but those are still concepts...and the corvette e ray comes with 6.2 V8.

The market is shrinking but I feel like a lot of that is due to lack of options.

I feel like with so many people having multiple cars, and one of them being an AWD SUV, it makes more sense than ever to have a fun and light car to make the drives more enjoyable. Especially considering the majority of cars on the road only have 1 person in them.

The Miata is interesting. I've never been a convertible guy so I would go hard top.

If they can deliver a fun little nimble lightweight car with quick acceleration and an affordable price tag, I'm all in.

Not if they make it like 10k more expensive and add like 500 pounds or whatever...but still better than no options.

The C8 will be available in full EV this year, so probably Jul when the new models come out. It all comes down to demand imo, chinese market seems to be adapting EVs like crazy, and they just came out with a pretty affordable (relatively speaking) EV supercar with 1000 HP for 150k (probably usd, but still),

BYD releases Yangwang U9, a $150K luxury EV supercar

Automaker BYD (BYDDY, 1211.HK) will release its EV luxury supercar, the Yangwang U9, at a staggering price tag of $150,000. The automaker had surpassed Tesla (TSLA) as the largest EV maker in terms of overall sales and looks to continue its global dominance. Yahoo Finance Reporter Pras...

finance.yahoo.com

 

[jbeck5]

The C8 will be available in full EV this year, so probably Jul when the new models come out. It all comes down to demand imo, chinese market seems to be adapting EVs like crazy, and they just came out with a pretty affordable (relatively speaking) EV supercar with 1000 HP for 150k (probably usd, but still),

BYD releases Yangwang U9, a $150K luxury EV supercar

Automaker BYD (BYDDY, 1211.HK) will release its EV luxury supercar, the Yangwang U9, at a staggering price tag of $150,000. The automaker had surpassed Tesla (TSLA) as the largest EV maker in terms of overall sales and looks to continue its global dominance. Yahoo Finance Reporter Pras...

finance.yahoo.com

Interesting. Thanks for that information.

Would be sweet to get some mid end sportscars...like Nissan Z, Toyota Supra performance and pricing but in electric...then I can get a 4-8 year old used one for cash saved up. Let's hope that's in the next 20 years.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I’ll wait for the next tech, electric cars are shoulder tech. Expensive shoulder tech.

 

[Micklebot]

I’ll wait for the next tech, electric cars are shoulder tech. Expensive shoulder tech.

I doubt it. Battery technology is driving pretty much everything these days, everybody is trying to improve it for your laptop, your phone, and your cars, as it gets lighter and more energy dense, it will only make EVs more and more viable.

Beyond that, motors are lighter, smaller and provide instant torque, they provide unique design possibilities that will continue to push the limits.

Beyond that, even currently EVs are less expensive when looking at the full lifecycle, with lower cost to run and maintain. Typically you break even after 5 to 6 years, after which your saving money even factoring in the upfront costs and difference in depreciation.

 

[mysens]

I have three separate colleagues who had purchased the F150 Lightning and all three are trying to get out of them. The Ford dealers are offering a terribly low price to buy them back as they said they do not want them. For context, all three guys have range anxiety. The said they have never got what the manufacture said for range. One of them also said that they would never ever take them on a road trip as he did for his kid's soccer tournament in Toronto. His 4-5 hour drive turned into over 7 hours. Every ONroute stop was always occupied and finally, on his third ONroute he had to wait 45 minutes to get to the charger as there was a line up and then another 45 minutes to charge. Then arriving at the Hotel, all the chargers were occupied. So the next day during his son's soccer game, he had to drive around to find a charging station. Brutal. He sold it upon return to Ottawa.
No thanks.

 

[Micklebot]

I have three separate colleagues who had purchased the F150 Lightning and all three are trying to get out of them. The Ford dealers are offering a terribly low price to buy them back as they said they do not want them. For context, all three guys have range anxiety. The said they have never got what the manufacture said for range. One of them also said that they would never ever take them on a road trip as he did for his kid's soccer tournament in Toronto. His 4-5 hour drive turned into over 7 hours. Every ONroute stop was always occupied and finally, on his third ONroute he had to wait 45 minutes to get to the charger as there was a line up and then another 45 minutes to charge. Then arriving at the Hotel, all the chargers were occupied. So the next day during his son's soccer game, he had to drive around to find a charging station. Brutal. He sold it upon return to Ottawa.
No thanks.

I don't think BEVs are ready for the road trip use case, so if that's the reason they want out, it makes sense to me.

Where BEV make sense is in town use, I'm driving across the city every day I'm in the office, but even on an extremely heavy day of driving, I'd hit maybe 100-150km; even if the range is only 80% of manufacture claims, and cold weather bites off another 40% I could go two days without a charge, but it will be plugged in my garage so no chance of that happening.

If you want a vehicle for road trips as well as in town, a hybrid makes more sense than a full BEV, at least until charging stations become as ubiquitous as gas stations. 45 mins to charge at the midpoint of a 500km road trip is fine, grab a bit to eat, but if charging stations are intermittent and often not working, you have a problem.

It will get better, but there are going to o be growing pains. For example, manufactures are now using the Tesla standard so the supercharger stations are an option, problem is those were designed to accommodate a fleet of cars that all have the charge port in the same spot, trying to charge a lightning there can be problematic since the cable might not reach, or if your charge point is on the passenger side instead of the driver side, you might have to park in the spot for one supercharger while using the charger next to it, so the app will tell people it's free to use but in reality it's unusable

 

[Mingus Dew]

I have three separate colleagues who had purchased the F150 Lightning and all three are trying to get out of them. The Ford dealers are offering a terribly low price to buy them back as they said they do not want them. For context, all three guys have range anxiety. The said they have never got what the manufacture said for range. One of them also said that they would never ever take them on a road trip as he did for his kid's soccer tournament in Toronto. His 4-5 hour drive turned into over 7 hours. Every ONroute stop was always occupied and finally, on his third ONroute he had to wait 45 minutes to get to the charger as there was a line up and then another 45 minutes to charge. Then arriving at the Hotel, all the chargers were occupied. So the next day during his son's soccer game, he had to drive around to find a charging station. Brutal. He sold it upon return to Ottawa.
No thanks.

You will never get the advertised range on any EV. Especially in Canada because cold weather completely handcuffs your range. Trucks are also the worst offenders because the moment you try to tow something you cut your range by 50%. Honestly the fact that dealerships were charging $100,000+ for those Lightnings is criminal.

My wife drives the Mustang Mach E and really likes it. We installed a level 2 charger at the house so local driving (basically anything within 100 miles) is never an issue.

Road trips remain tricky because infrastructure is insufficient. A level 3 charger can charge most new EVs to 80% in about 30 minutes. Unfortunately, they are not that common and half of them are not working and always in need of repair. Couple that with increased demand and it makes for a really tough experience.

Luckily Tesla is opening up their supercharger network to more EVs now which should help. But we have a long way to go.

 

[jbeck5]

I doubt it. Battery technology is driving pretty much everything these days, everybody is trying to improve it for your laptop, your phone, and your cars, as it gets lighter and more energy dense, it will only make EVs more and more viable.

Beyond that, motors are lighter, smaller and provide instant torque, they provide unique design possibilities that will continue to push the limits.

Beyond that, even currently EVs are less expensive when looking at the full lifecycle, with lower cost to run and maintain. Typically you break even after 5 to 6 years, after which your saving money even factoring in the upfront costs and difference in depreciation.

Interesting point you make about motors being lighter and smaller.

I definitely notice this in things like chain saws.

But in cars, it seems to be the opposite. Electric cars seem to be like 500 pounds heavier than an ICE vehicle of the same size.

Whenever a car model becomes electric, it becomes heavier.

For example, a ford f150 weighs 1850-2275 kg while the f150 lightning weighs 2,728-3,127kg depending on trims.

Also disagree with you about saving over the life if the vehicle. It really depends how much you drive.

Like I showed, it would take 70 years for me break even comparing my car to if I got a tesla 3 performance.

No one is keeping a car for 70 years.

 

[Micklebot]

You will never get the advertised range on any EV. Especially in Canada because cold weather completely handcuffs your range. Trucks are also the worst offenders because the moment you try to tow something you cut your range by 50%. Honestly the fact that dealerships were charging $100,000+ for those Lightnings is criminal.

My wife drives the Mustang Mach E and really likes it. We installed a level 2 charger at the house so local driving (basically anything within 100 miles) is never an issue.

Road trips remain tricky because infrastructure is insufficient. A level 3 charger can charge most new EVs to 80% in about 30 minutes. Unfortunately, they are not that common and half of them are not working and always in need of repair. Couple that with increased demand and it makes for a really tough experience.

Luckily Tesla is opening up their supercharger network to more EVs now which should help. But we have a long way to go.

It feels odd to me how many of the non Tesla charge stations are offline or not working to spec. Apparently 55% of failures are connectivity to the network for authentication, the network relies on cell networks and apparently has issues, which is, well wow. Maybe hard wire your connection...

 

[Micklebot]

Interesting point you make about motors being lighter and smaller.

I definitely notice this in things like chain saws.

But in cars, it seems to be the opposite. Electric cars seem to be like 500 pounds heavier than an ICE vehicle of the same size.

Whenever a car model becomes electric, it becomes heavier.

For example, a ford f150 weighs 1850-2275 kg while the f150 lightning weighs 2,728-3,127kg depending on trims.

Also disagree with you about saving over the life if the vehicle. It really depends how much you drive.

Like I showed, it would take 70 years for me break even comparing my car to if I got a tesla 3 performance.

No one is keeping a car for 70 years.

Battery is the heavy part, but they are getting lighter. Problem is range anxiety means that any gains in lighter battery tech typically gets offset by increase in size to increase range rather than decrease weight

Cost comparison is of two new vehicles of the same trim with typical driving habits, your example is not even remotely apples to apples

Where you get the potential for advancement is things like kia and Hyundai's uni wheel, where the motor is integrated in the wheel, no driveshaft , differential or transmission needed.

Edit, uni wheel isn't in commercially available vechles, it's just a concept thing so far to my understanding.

 

[jbeck5]

Battery is the heavy part, but they are getting lighter. Problem is range anxiety means that any gains in lighter battery tech typically gets offset by increase in size to increase range rather than decrease weight

Cost comparison is of two new vehicles of the same trim with typical driving habits, your example is not even remotely apples to apples

Where you get the potential for advancement is things like kia and Hyundai's uni wheel, where the motor is integrated in the wheel, no driveshaft , differential or transmission needed.

Ah, of course. But then I guess it shouldn't be motor weight vs motor weight, but rather motor weight + gas tank vs motor weight + battery...and then the EVs still have a ways to go.

I understand that, but we should compare all options available to someone who needs a car. Like, what are the pros and cons of getting new vs used, gas vs electric, and so on. Compare them all in one big pot as they are all options to someone looking for a vehicle.

But I do see your point about comparing a new electric vs new gas, and wondering how long it would take to break even.

Take the Kona for example. The gas version starts at 27k while the electric version starts at 39k.

If I'm using $100 in gas vs $20 electricity, I'm saving $80 a month.

12,000/80= 150 months ..or 12 and a half years.

I understand I drive less than average. I believe average is 15,000km a year whereas I'm about half that.

So your average person will break even in a little over 6 years.

I just wonder if the average mileage is going down with so many people working from home or doing hybrid work.

Those averages must be lower than a few years ago, before COVID.

In conclusion: if you drive a lot or more than average. It's probably worth it.

If you drive average, it's worth it if you plan to keep the car but maybe not if you plan on just trading it in for another electric...might be a wash.

If you drive less than average, then it's probably not worth it.

 

[Micklebot]

Ah, of course. But then I guess it shouldn't be motor weight vs motor weight, but rather motor weight + gas tank vs motor weight + battery...and then the EVs still have a ways to go.

I understand that, but we should compare all options available to someone who needs a car. Like, what are the pros and cons of getting new vs used, gas vs electric, and so on. Compare them all in one big pot as they are all options to someone looking for a vehicle.

But I do see your point about comparing a new electric vs new gas, and wondering how long it would take to break even.

Take the Kona for example. The gas version starts at 27k while the electric version starts at 39k.

If I'm using $100 in gas vs $20 electricity, I'm saving $80 a month.

12,000/80= 150 months ..or 12 and a half years.

I understand I drive less than average. I believe average is 15,000km a year whereas I'm about half that.

So your average person will break even in a little over 6 years.

I just wonder if the average mileage is going down with so many people working from home or doing hybrid work.

Those averages must be lower than a few years ago, before COVID.

Even with the Kona example, you need to make sure you are comparing the same trim. Manufacturers are putting out trims that's sole existence is to be able to advertise a low price, but nobody actually buys that. I believe the EV option for the Kona is available only in the top two trims. There's still going to be a gap though.

Good point about people driving less these days, that will impact the calculation for sure. It also matters whether you're charging at home vs at charge stations and what the govt rebate du jour is. I think fed is up to 5k, Ontario used to get a really big one, but I think it's nothing now, Quebec I think adds another 7k

 

[jbeck5]

Even with the Kona example, you need to make sure you are comparing the same trim. Manufacturers are putting out trims that's sole existence is to be able to advertise a low price, but nobody actually buys that. I believe the EV option for the Kona is available only in the top two trims. There's still going to be a gap though.

Good point about people driving less these days, that will impact the calculation for sure. It also matters whether you're charging at home vs at charge stations and what the govt rebate du jour is. I think fed is up to 5k, Ontario used to get a really big one, but I think it's nothing now, Quebec I think adds another 7k

See, this is making me want electric more, but then the issue is still lack of options.

I like the sportscar look and the low to the ground sitting position, and the smaller feel.

If there was a RWD electric coupe for 40k new with about 300hp, I would totally look for a used version for like 30k.

I don't do roadtrips. Everything is local. It's driving around Orleans or to downtown or Orleans to luskville. Rarely am I in my car for more than 45 mins so range anxiety wouldn't be a thing. I'd plug in my garage.

 

[Alex1234]

You can buy a new car and have it modified by dealership approved modifier that won't cancel the warranty

At least Nissan does approve some for GTRs

 

[Micklebot]

See, this is making me want electric more, but then the issue is still lack of options.

I like the sportscar look and the low to the ground sitting position, and the smaller feel.

If there was a RWD electric coupe for 40k new with about 300hp, I would totally look for a used version for like 30k.

I don't do roadtrips. Everything is local. It's driving around Orleans or to downtown or Orleans to luskville. Rarely am I in my car for more than 45 mins so range anxiety wouldn't be a thing. I'd plug in my garage.

You're definitely an underserved market, I think the battery size and weight makes nimble sports cars tough to deliver at a reasonable price still, Wich is why the current offerings for more sporty EVs are in the performance cuv market,

The miada sounds promising, estimates it will sell for 33k USD when it launches mid 2025. Not my favourite sportscar, and I'd want a hardtop if available but it's a start.

 

[jbeck5]

You can buy a new car and have it modified by dealership approved modifier that won't cancel the warranty

At least Nissan does approve some for GTRs

Who's Nissan's approved modifier? My gf just got a Nissan in October with a turbo...wonder what kind of gains we could make under warranty.

I was talking to the salesman about my genesis and my potential interest in the Z and never heard anything about a licensed deal with a tuner shop.

 

[Alex1234]

Who's Nissan's approved modifier?
Switzer with Hunt club Nissan

@jbeck5

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I’ll wait for the next tech, electric cars are shoulder tech. Expensive shoulder tech.

And in most cases, to expensive to repair….. Plus knowing this, you’ll be paying much more for insurance….BEVs are not the future.

[URLunfurl="true"]https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42709679/tesla-insurance-fixes-expense/[/URL]

 

[jbeck5]

Who's Nissan's approved modifier?
Switzer with Hunt club Nissan

@jbeck5

So if you bring any Nissan under warranty to get custom performance work there, it will be covered under warranty?

 

[Mingus Dew]

It feels odd to me how many of the non Tesla charge stations are offline or not working to spec. Apparently 55% of failures are connectivity to the network for authentication, the network relies on cell networks and apparently has issues, which is, well wow. Maybe hard wire your connection...

Well Electrify America is one of the major networks down here. If I recall correctly it's a Volkswagen subsidiary and they were basically forced to establish it after they got smacked down for emissions fraud.

So as you can imagine it's not a high priority for them. They made the initial investment and now they're letting it languish.