Speculation: Sens, Lebreton, and the NCC part II

[topshelf15]

I'm pretty sure you have been adamant that you won't be spending a dime until EM is gone, that's a bit different, but welcoming all the same. My apologies

I also don't really agree with your financial analysis, mostly because it isn't based on anything we know for sure. There isn't much tangible evidence that the team itself runs a profit, and much of what we have heard over the years is that it doesn't. What I will say is that it is unreasonable to include non hockey related revenue into your equations. The owner is allowed to profit from owning the team, and the best way to do that without crippling a team that doesn't make a lot of money on it's own is to use non hockey related revenues. I think people should get comfortable with the idea that we shouldn't expect an owner to use non hockey related revenues to fund the team if they don't want to; that is fair I would say.

I agree that removing the debt would be great, but I think you're miss understanding the market. It doesn't generate a lot of profit at all, I don't think that can be reasonable argued using any numbers that we have at our disposal. You keep trying to add in non hockey related revenues, which I think is wrong to do when we're talking about the hockey team. At the very least that is a profit margin that ownership is entitled to.

Glad to see that you're now willing to support the team with EM as a partner.

Biggest grey area,those three little words can be turned and twisted so many ways...For me anything to do with the arena should be hockey related,as it likely never gets built without the team....But then again I could see it from the other side too....

The end all and be all here is we need to stop robbing from Peter to pay Paul all the time....Give the team access to a good slice so it can function properly,now this doesnt mean spending to the cap every year or in general being stupid with the capital...But stop with the spending of team assets to ensure a low budget,and let them take a swing at the cap ceiling sometimes

 

[Micklebot]

Oh, FWIW I ran his IP and it's Italian.

(checked with mysens before posting this information, just in case of any disclosure issues).

Won't stop some from claiming VPN, but yeah, people go on vacation, not sure why anyone would doubt somebody claiming to be in Italy.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I answered your questions with regards to the Forbes #'s.

I didn't bother with the revenue vs valuation question because multiple posters had already responded on that issue to you.

Read this article and then answer my questions you ignored.

NHL Lockout: Why do billionaires keep buying teams that lose money? (Updated)

No you didn't. You deflected and made up a bunch of nonsense instead of actually answering the questions.

You don't get to make outlandish statements and then say "Prove me wrong!"

I will answer and ask one question though.

Let's assume the numbers from 2017, their best ever year for revenue on record with Forbes. Let's say the Senators made a profit of $10 million.

The Senators have a debt load of approximately $135 million. They have secured a six year senior term debt on that number. The interest on that should be somewhere in the range of 8-9%. So just the interest on that debt load is approximately $10.5 to $12.15 million per year.

Let's safely assume that Eugene Melnyk wants to make money from a business he owns. Why would Melnyk want to continue carrying such a huge debt load, generating massive interest payments every year all while pocketing the profits of the franchise's operation?

Wouldn't it be far more beneficial to him to pay down the debt or eliminate it entirely and be able to not only pocket that $10 million per year in operating profits but also not have to pay $10.5 to $12.15 million per year in debt interest?

Why would he not want that? Under what scenarios does it make sense for him to continue paying huge amounts of interest on the debt instead of finding a way to pay it off and pocket all of that extra money?

 

[Ice-Tray]

He buries in debt to make sure it never makes money on paper ,and never has to use his own...He wants a chunk of that huge new arena deal though,even though without the team it would never be there for him to begin with...

It was us fans that brought the team to where it is right now,which is on the verge of a huge multibillion dollar downtown arena project...Yet we seem to always get the short end of the deal when it comes to getting what we want

I don't think this is a fair assessment. You seem to paint EM as a villain, and the fans as a virtuous victims. Let's be real, the team doesn't make a lot of money on it's own, there are aren't really numbers to support this. He is not a likeable character and he doesn't seem to have the cash to keep up with a doubled salary cap, but you're going too far in trying to demonize the guy and it takes away from credibility. He doesn't have to be the worst guy for us to have a reasonable discussion about where we should be headed.

Lets be honest, he doesn't want a chunk, you're making it seem like he's an add in, when the reality he is a major partner of the deal, with a massive anchor building, and a city culture giant in his possession. He's not a third man in begging for a piece, come on now.

Also, the fans are not why this deal is happening, why would you think that? Especially these days, this deal is being done in spite of dropping attendance, fan apathy, and a general dislike for the team owner. This deal is being done to improve the Senators viability in the city, and hopefully re-engage the fan base. Look, there is good reason for fan apathy, but there is no need for delusions of grandeur. The team really does have to engage in grand gestures to get back what it had, this is part of it, as is adding a partner with capital to help rebuild the brand, but let's stop short in trying to argue that the fans are actively doing anything concerning these new developments other than staying away and being hostile (again, understandably).

Looking forward you're also not really getting the short end of anything, give me a break. You have an owner that is actively looking too move the team downtown on his own dime, a partnership on the horizon to increase spending and to share debt (and to hopefully take a forefront position). The future is actually cautiously brighter than it's been in a long time.

 

[Sensung]

I'm pretty sure you have been adamant that you won't be spending a dime until EM is gone, that's a bit different, but welcoming all the same. My apologies

I also don't really agree with your financial analysis, mostly because it isn't based on anything we know for sure. There isn't much tangible evidence that the team itself runs a profit, and much of what we have heard over the years is that it doesn't. What I will say is that it is unreasonable to include non hockey related revenue into your equations. The owner is allowed to profit from owning the team, and the best way to do that without crippling a team that doesn't make a lot of money on it's own is to use non hockey related revenues. I think people should get comfortable with the idea that we shouldn't expect an owner to use non hockey related revenues to fund the team if they don't want to; that is fair I would say.

I agree that removing the debt would be great, but I think you're miss understanding the market. It doesn't generate a lot of profit at all, I don't think that can be reasonable argued using any numbers that we have at our disposal. You keep trying to add in non hockey related revenues, which I think is wrong to do when we're talking about the hockey team. At the very least that is a profit margin that ownership is entitled to.

Glad to see that you're now willing to support the team with EM as a partner.

The business needs to be viewed as a whole. Melnyk purchased it as a whole, so why does he get to separate it out now and demand that all portions show profit? (especially when considering that Melnlyk has direct control over the team's profitability) Without the Sens, the business wouldn't exist and Eugene has the ability and motivation to ensure the team suffers paper losses all while turning a profit overall.

The problem is that he uses the paper losses to justify running a budget that means the team can't compete. Other similar sized markets don't.

Fans need hope. Eugene has killed all hope in this marketplace.

If he turns over controlling interest to an owner willing to spend on the zsens to compete, then the fans will return.

As long as Eugene is in charge, the market will flounder.

 

[Ice-Tray]

The business needs to be viewed as a whole. Without the Sens it wouldn't exist and Eugene has the ability and motivation to ensure the team suffers paper losses all while turning a profit overall.

The problem is that he uses the paper losses to justify running a budget that means the team can't compete. Other similar sized markets don't.

Fans need hope. Eugene has killed all hope in this marketplace.

If he turns over controlling interest to an owner willing to spend on the zsens to compete, then the fans will return.

As long as Eugene is in charge, the market will flounder.

No, the business needs to be looked at as hockey related revenue vs non hockey related revenue. At a very simplistic level it seems fair to expect the owner to use hockey related revenues on the team to keep it viable and funded, and maybe even turn a small profit as long as the team is still successful. At the same time any ways that the owner can make a profit off the building outside of hockey related revenues should be deemed fair game for profits, but also shared for building maintenance when necessary.

You don't know any of your financial opinions are true so I'm not going to address them.

I agree that the fan base needs hope, and a new partner and a new arena look good to that end. Signing our three stars would be massive as well and is still a possibility at this point.

He doesn't have to turn over controlling interest for fans to return, this is your personal vendetta, but most people would be appeased seeing a new partner increasing spending, the organization fleshed out, and perhaps EM not being such a prominent face/voice in the media any more. Most people want to see a team on the ice they can cheer for, not an ownership split that they can really get behind.

 

[BatherSeason]

Fans need hope. Eugene has killed all hope in this marketplace.

If he turns over controlling interest to an owner willing to spend on the zsens to compete, then the fans will return.

As long as Eugene is in charge, the market will flounder.

I am really not even sure why this is even being debated? Who cares if we are good fans, bad fans, if Euge is making money or if he isn't, if we go to games or not, nothing matters, the reality is exactly what @Sensung has posted, whether his opinion, mine or mysens is right or wrong doesn't matter. The reality is, Melnyk has left a bad taste in the mouth of the majority of this fanbase and sure, he can potentially fix it, but it doesn't look like he is committed to, so until then things will continue as is and the fans will continue to not purchase tickets.

 

[JD1]

You don't seem to be addressing my point. I have no issues with stating the fact that we don't have access to the required info to determine if the team makes or loses money. I do have an issue with admonishing people for taking assumptions as facts, and then doing the exact same thing themselves one sentence later.

it's pretty widely recognized that 7 or 8 teams in the NHL make all the money. That's been true for a couple of decades. And that is not just the teams, it's the entire ownership including buildings. That's been widely reported for years and is imo common knowledge or at the least common knowledge to anyone that follows sports and has any head for numbers. that's on an operating basis and doesn't include increases in value which admittedly would put melnyk in the black should he sell.

when we get around to talking about proof, I'd say that those claiming that Melnyk makes a ton have more of an onus to prove that point of view.

the best data I can find....from forbes...shoes the teams fortunes having turned around considerably in the past few years as a result of bigger tv deals.

 

[topshelf15]

I don't think this is a fair assessment. You seem to paint EM as a villain, and the fans as a virtuous victims. Let's be real, the team doesn't make a lot of money on it's own, there are aren't really numbers to support this. He is not a likeable character and he doesn't seem to have the cash to keep up with a doubled salary cap, but you're going too far in trying to demonize the guy and it takes away from credibility. He doesn't have to be the worst guy for us to have a reasonable discussion about where we should be headed.

Lets be honest, he doesn't want a chunk, you're making it seem like he's an add in, when the reality he is a major partner of the deal, with a massive anchor building, and a city culture giant in his possession. He's not a third man in begging for a piece, come on now.

Also, the fans are not why this deal is happening, why would you think that? Especially these days, this deal is being done in spite of dropping attendance, fan apathy, and a general dislike for the team owner. This deal is being done to improve the Senators viability in the city, and hopefully re-engage the fan base. Look, there is good reason for fan apathy, but there is no need for delusions of grandeur. The team really does have to engage in grand gestures to get back what it had, this is part of it, as is adding a partner with capital to help rebuild the brand, but let's stop short in trying to argue that the fans are actively doing anything concerning these new developments other than staying away and being hostile (again, understandably).

Looking forward you're also not really getting the short end of anything, give me a break. You have an owner that is actively looking too move the team downtown on his own dime, a partnership on the horizon to increase spending and to share debt (and to hopefully take a forefront position). The future is actually cautiously brighter than it's been in a long time.

Ok ,this just seems to slanted the other way...So EM is just going to do this out the kindness of his heart now??

Us fans do deserve something more than excuses of why we cant compete...The arena old and new one along with the team is a pipedream without us...Fans demanding more for their dollar isnt anything new... Fans in this market have heard the same line since the team was brought here to begin with...Its been almost 30 seasons of the same damn message..... we are a budget team ,we cant spend...blah blah blah

Yet EM and some fans are surprised by the huge backlash???Come the f*** on this shit has been brewing for almost 3 decades,he has had all the time in the world to make good on his promises and has punked out on every single one of them...So excuse me if I dont TWO f***S about poor EM feelings,we want and deserve a cup winner here...

 

[Ice-Tray]

Interestingly it would seem, at least superficially, that TV deals are growing as bodies in the arena are declining. With the TV setups that people have at home now it's no wonder really. A new arena downtown is a must because they need to create an evening out atmosphere and a certain excitement about going to a game, otherwise the best seats in the house are arguable in your own house.

 

[topshelf15]

Interestingly it would seem, at least superficially, that TV deals are growing as bodies in the arena are declining. With the TV setups that people have at home now it's no wonder really. A new arena downtown is a must because they need to create an evening out atmosphere and a certain excitement about going to a game, otherwise the best seats in the house are arguable in your own house.

The downtown arena like it did for a pile of rocks that we now call Kanata,will be a huge boon to the city...The investors in this mega deal also stand to make boatloads of dollars...But what about the fans of the team ???Do we still get to watch our team trade away draft picks to save dollars??

 

[Sensung]

No you didn't. You deflected and made up a bunch of nonsense instead of actually answering the questions.

You don't get to make outlandish statements and then say "Prove me wrong!"

Feel free to point out where I did this specifically. I see answers to the questions you raised about the Forbes numbers.

I will answer and ask one question though.

That would be a pleasant change. Perhaps when you are done, you could get around to the rest of the questions I raised.

Let's assume the numbers from 2017, their best ever year for revenue on record with Forbes. Let's say the Senators made a profit of $10 million.

The Senators have a debt load of approximately $135 million. They have secured a six year senior term debt on that number. The interest on that should be somewhere in the range of 8-9%. So just the interest on that debt load is approximately $10.5 to $12.15 million per year.

Let's safely assume that Eugene Melnyk wants to make money from a business he owns. Why would Melnyk want to continue carrying such a huge debt load, generating massive interest payments every year all while pocketing the profits of the franchise's operation?

Wouldn't it be far more beneficial to him to pay down the debt or eliminate it entirely and be able to not only pocket that $10 million per year in operating profits but also not have to pay $10.5 to $12.15 million per year in debt interest?

Why would he not want that? Under what scenarios does it make sense for him to continue paying huge amounts of interest on the debt instead of finding a way to pay it off and pocket all of that extra money?

Who chose to load the Sens with debt?
Are fans responsible to make sure that all of Melnyk's businesses make money regardless of the debt load that HE chose for each enterprise?

 

[topshelf15]

Feel free to point out where I did this specifically. I see answers to the questions you raised about the Forbes numbers.



That would be a pleasant change. Perhaps when you are done, you could get around to the rest of the questions I raised.


Who chose to load the Sens with debt?
Are fans responsible to make sure that all of Melnyk's businesses make money regardless of the debt load that HE chose for each enterprise?

We are just supposed to surrender our dollars to him and never question his judgement, nor to ever ask for more than he is willing to give.....In a nutshell Sens brass since the beginning

 

[Micklebot]

it's pretty widely recognized that 7 or 8 teams in the NHL make all the money. That's been true for a couple of decades. And that is not just the teams, it's the entire ownership including buildings. That's been widely reported for years and is imo common knowledge or at the least common knowledge to anyone that follows sports and has any head for numbers. that's on an operating basis and doesn't include increases in value which admittedly would put melnyk in the black should he sell.

when we get around to talking about proof, I'd say that those claiming that Melnyk makes a ton have more of an onus to prove that point of view.

the best data I can find....from forbes...shoes the teams fortunes having turned around considerably in the past few years as a result of bigger tv deals.

Ok, what does this have to do with my contention? He demanded proof of Melnyk making money (a fair request imo, albeit somewhat difficult to provide) then turned around and claimed in a matter of fact tone that the team would be valued at 50% of what it currently is in a vacuum, an entirely unverifiable claim. That's what started all this. I'm not suggesting he should prove that they lose money, or even that they don't make gobs of money, my contention is with the claim that the team would only be worth ~250 mil in a vacuum while simultaneously admonishing those assuming that there are ulterior revenues and hidden profits not captured by Forbes based on the known interest in other buyers, and his unwillingness to even consider (at least publicly) selling.

 

[BloodRedArmy]

Papered. Freebies.

So many excuses...

So what do you want? What exactly are you getting at? What's your point? Ottawa sucks?

 

[Sensung]

No, the business needs to be looked at as hockey related revenue vs non hockey related revenue. At a very simplistic level it seems fair to expect the owner to use hockey related revenues on the team to keep it viable and funded, and maybe even turn a small profit as long as the team is still successful. At the same time any ways that the owner can make a profit off the building outside of hockey related revenues should be deemed fair game for profits, but also shared for building maintenance when necessary.

You don't know any of your financial opinions are true so I'm not going to address them.

I agree that the fan base needs hope, and a new partner and a new arena look good to that end. Signing our three stars would be massive as well and is still a possibility at this point.

He doesn't have to turn over controlling interest for fans to return, this is your personal vendetta, but most people would be appeased seeing a new partner increasing spending, the organization fleshed out, and perhaps EM not being such a prominent face/voice in the media any more. Most people want to see a team on the ice they can cheer for, not an ownership split that they can really get behind.

Did Melnyk purchase the team or the team and the arena?
If his operations as a whole generate money and the valuation for that purchase has gone through the roof, why should fans accept him refusing to spend on the roster or hockey operations?

You are severely underestimating how toxic Melnyk is to this marketplace. Until he is no longer in control, the fans will stay away.

 

[Sensung]

it's pretty widely recognized that 7 or 8 teams in the NHL make all the money. That's been true for a couple of decades. And that is not just the teams, it's the entire ownership including buildings. That's been widely reported for years and is imo common knowledge or at the least common knowledge to anyone that follows sports and has any head for numbers. that's on an operating basis and doesn't include increases in value which admittedly would put melnyk in the black should he sell.

when we get around to talking about proof, I'd say that those claiming that Melnyk makes a ton have more of an onus to prove that point of view.

the best data I can find....from forbes...shoes the teams fortunes having turned around considerably in the past few years as a result of bigger tv deals.

The best data we can find on the business model of the NHL is the lineup of billionaires willing to plunk down hundreds of millions of dollars to join the club.

The best data we can find on the business model of the Ottawa market is the lineup of billionaires willing to plunk down hundreds of millions of dollars to purchase the club.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Come on man, I never said anything about the goodness of his heart. He's doing it to make money, and at a very base level to save the franchise that he owns. It serves no purpose to put these kinds of statements on me and force me to address them when no one thinks this.

We don't deserve anything, but if fans are expected to shell out an increasing amount of money on entertainment we're going to need to be woed. You need to stop behaving like a victim and look at it like a service business. Companies compete for our entertainment dollars and the Sens have been doing a poor job of late. Especially when Samsung can get a one time payment from us, TSN can get a subscription from us, and we can watch our beloved Sens from the comfort of our couches.

I honestly would't "blah blah blah" the budget because that's not going to change anytime soon. The roster spending is likely to continue to reflect the market spending, and there is no reason to expect otherwise. The best we can hope for is a partner that perhaps eliminates the debt in order to increase the ability to spend directly on the team, and a renewed effort to market excitement for the team, and of course the dollars to flesh out the organization from a staffing perspective. Non of these are unreasonable to expect from a fan perspective except maybe the debt pay off.

No one is surprised by the backlash, it's understandable, but it's not going to get much lip service in a level headed discussion. I mean your ranting about 3 decades when the team hasn't been around that long, you're talking about broken promises when the owner spent to the cap for years trying to build a winner, and we made it to the cup finals. The reality looks like the cap doubled while EM took a lot of personal hits and now looks like he and the market alone can't sustain a cap hit while being profitable, for whatever reason. This is what needs to be fixed somehow.

As for your last bit, again, no one is feeling sorry for EM, it's more that folks are tired of senseless rants in here about the issue. That time has passed and common sense can now be applied. This market need help and yelling pointing fingers serves no purpose anymore.

Finally, give me a single reason why this market "deserves" a cup over any other market. This sentiment makes no sense. The team deserves a cup when it wins one, and we as fans get to bask in the enjoyment of victory, but as a fanbase we have done exactly zero to "deserve" a cup. Even looking at it comparatively, we pay a lot less to watch our team than many other cities, many have had a lot longer droughts than us too, do they not "deserve" a cup more than us? This sentiment makes no sense.

It looks like positive change is coming, this is good news for us.

 

[coladin]

So let me get this straight:
1. Ottawa never supported the Sens, when we they were one of the top attendance teams in the league it’s because they were giving away tickets
2. Fans in Ottawa are too cheap period.
3. Fans in Ottawa are not “true” fans because they won’t blindly support Melnyk and whatever he says.
4. It’s the Fans fault the playoff game didn’t sell out despite the fact it’s been happening to other teams since and will definitely be a continuing trend IMO.
5. Melnyk has been losing money constantly yet he doesn’t want to sell an asset that supposedly loses money year after year.
6. Potential new minority partners won’t spend either because of the above reasons yet they’re still interested in investing in this money losing venture.

Sounds to me like the Sens should just move to Seattle and get it over with.

It isn't about supporting Melnyk, it is about supporting the players, the team. If people around here can get over their feelings from their perches, then this team will have a chance to compete with others and the fans cheer and support the Senators. Not you per se, but in general.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Did Melnyk purchase the team or the team and the arena?
If his operations as a whole generate money and the valuation for that purchase has gone through the roof, why should fans accept him refusing to spend on the roster or hockey operations?

You are severely underestimating how toxic Melnyk is to this marketplace. Until he is no longer in control, the fans will stay away.

We shall see I suppose. Many in here just want to see a proper organization, staffed and run professionally as well as a commitment to keeping our stars. Most people aren't bogged by personal feelings toward a guy they don't even know.

In my opinion I think it is you who will be surprised by how fast fans are willing to return to the team.

 

[Micklebot]

The best data we can find on the business model of the NHL is the lineup of billionaires willing to plunk down hundreds of millions of dollars to join the club.

The best data we can find on the business model of the Ottawa market is the lineup of billionaires willing to plunk down hundreds of millions of dollars to purchase the club.

idk, rich people plunk down gobs of cash for all sorts of things that don't intrinsically hold value; sometimes it's not about the return on investment, it's about having a status symbol.

 

[coladin]

Ottawa supports the Sens. Just not as much as bigger cities that many people here try to compare us to. We've always sold about 16,000 seats proper. The rest were usually given away in many of the different promotions around the city.

Fans aren't really all that cheap, they just want value for their money. Right now people won't go out of their way to spend on the Sens because they feel Melnyk isn't doing anything to improve the team at all and just pocketing their money.

I don't know why it has to be so black/white with so many people. Melnyk needs to go because he is causing some serious damage to our already fragile fanbase, but let's not pretend that as soon as ownership changes we are going to be selling out every night either.

According to many here, ownership change will bring them back. No it won't. They will find another excuse not to go. Too far , probably.

There is no value in professional sports. None. And there never will be save junior hockey, AHL, AAA baseball. CFL. The rest of the big leagues require a significant financial commitment. I have never hidden the fact that people have to live within their means and if the cost is prohibitive, well, who is anyone to judge?

But many choose not to go, and it isn't for financial reasons (or so they say). That is what hurts the franchise, hurts the ability of the franchise to compete to the level that we deserve.

I agree, everything is very black or white. It is like Civil War here. There seems to be no common ground because no one wants to give an inch.

 

[topshelf15]

Come on man, I never said anything about the goodness of his heart. He's doing it to make money, and at a very base level to save the franchise that he owns. It serves no purpose to put these kinds of statements on me and force me to address them when no one thinks this.

We don't deserve anything, but if fans are expected to shell out an increasing amount of money on entertainment we're going to need to be woed. You need to stop behaving like a victim and look at it like a service business. Companies compete for our entertainment dollars and the Sens have been doing a poor job of late. Especially when Samsung can get a one time payment from us, TSN can get a subscription from us, and we can watch our beloved Sens from the comfort of our couches.

I honestly would't "blah blah blah" the budget because that's not going to change anytime soon. The roster spending is likely to continue to reflect the market spending, and there is no reason to expect otherwise. The best we can hope for is a partner that perhaps eliminates the debt in order to increase the ability to spend directly on the team, and a renewed effort to market excitement for the team, and of course the dollars to flesh out the organization from a staffing perspective. Non of these are unreasonable to expect from a fan perspective except maybe the debt pay off.

No one is surprised by the backlash, it's understandable, but it's not going to get much lip service in a level headed discussion. I mean your ranting about 3 decades when the team hasn't been around that long, you're talking about broken promises when the owner spent to the cap for years trying to build a winner, and we made it to the cup finals. The reality looks like the cap doubled while EM took a lot of personal hits and now looks like he and the market alone can't sustain a cap hit while being profitable, for whatever reason. This is what needs to be fixed somehow.

As for your last bit, again, no one is feeling sorry for EM, it's more that folks are tired of senseless rants in here about the issue. That time has passed and common sense can now be applied. This market need help and yelling pointing fingers serves no purpose anymore.

Finally, give me a single reason why this market "deserves" a cup over any other market. This sentiment makes no sense. The team deserves a cup when it wins one, and we as fans get to bask in the enjoyment of victory, but as a fanbase we have done exactly zero to "deserve" a cup. Even looking at it comparatively, we pay a lot less to watch our team than many other cities, many have had a lot longer droughts than us too, do they not "deserve" a cup more than us? This sentiment makes no sense.

It looks like positive change is coming, this is good news for us.

Iam not ranting, iam stating the truth in a blunt matter...LOL ...The message and actions of this team need to change to affect more than just the play on the ice...It needs to change to facilitate growth with young fans ,and by appeasing the existing fans the team can ensure healthy stable ST sales...

Its been almost 3 decades of the same message,yet some still seemed surprised as to why the market is still considered small...The money has always been there,the ownership just wants it to walk over to them

 

[coladin]

Melnyk is not losing money.

Not making enough to spend to a competitive level...Feel better now?

 

[topshelf15]

According to many here, ownership change will bring them back. No it won't. They will find another excuse not to go. Too far , probably.

There is no value in professional sports. None. And there never will be save junior hockey, AHL, AAA baseball. CFL. The rest of the big leagues require a significant financial commitment. I have never hidden the fact that people have to live within their means and if the cost is prohibitive, well, who is anyone to judge?

But many choose not to go, and it isn't for financial reasons (or so they say). That is what hurts the franchise, hurts the ability of the franchise to compete to the level that we deserve.

I agree, everything is very black or white. It is like Civil War here. There seems to be no common ground because no one wants to give an inch.

Message has been quite clear from ownership for a long time ,he has had time to change what the answer would have been