Post-Game Talk: Senators 3 Leafs 2

[Willchel Marlynder]

It's not the result, it's the same old sad performance from this bunch specially coming out of the gate that is an embarrassment.
As far as I'm concerned even the habs result is a loss for this team.

I hope people start to realize this. Yes a slow start here and there aren't causes to panic. However this team is notorious for it and we've seen it on the biggest stages (that this team can get to anyway). If it was three years ago yes there might be a point to be made about a slow start, but this is year 5 for the core and for two straight games they can't start on time and this is after losing a 3-1 series lead after starting slow for multiple game clinching opportunities. Leafs don't have the history to be given the same leeway as teams like Tampa, Vegas, Pittsburgh, and Montreal (pretty much every team on that list but a new expansion team lol).

No cause to panic yet but it's quite the disappointment seeing that this team is still be outplayed early.

 

[Cynical]

Tampas losing to Detroit
Montreal lost to Buffalo

welcome to the NHL? Where pros beat pros on any given night?

Montreal is not expected to make the playoffs. The Lightening have proven themselves, I think?

The Leafs look the same as they did in when they got eliminated. In fact they look worse.

This team is in for a dogfight to get into the playoffs and losing to the Sens and struggling against the Habs is not getting it done.

The worst is not the final outcome. It's the way they played. They do not look any different than the team who has lost in the first round in previous seasons.

 

[AllDay28]

Montreal is not expected to make the playoffs. The Lightening have proven themselves, I think?

The Leafs look the same as they did in when they got eliminated. In fact they look worse.

This team is in for a dogfight to get into the playoffs and losing to the Sens and struggling against the Habs is not getting it done.

The worst is not the final outcome. It's the way they played. They do not look any different than the team who has lost in the first round in previous seasons.

Damn a team without a top 3 player in the world look worse than before? Tell me more

 

[Obo]

Just gonna leave this here. Pretty useful and convenient:

https://www.hockeystatcards.com/single-game-card/13011

Genuine question: Why are the Ottawa individual scores so much higher than the Leafs' when Forsberg's expected goals is higher than the combined total of Mrazek and Campbell? How can a team have collectively played a terrible game but have more expected goals?

(And I'm just talking about these numbers here, not what actually happened on the ice. I saw the same game that everyone else did.)

 

[socko]

The worst is not the final outcome. It's the way they played. They do not look any different than the team who has lost in the first round in previous seasons.

I'd say they look worse TBH. A slow slide to mediocrity under Dubas. Wasted winning the lottery and getting a generational scoring talent.

 

[AllDay28]

I'd say they look worse TBH. A slow slide to mediocrity under Dubas. Wasted winning the lottery and getting a generational scoring talent.

This bad of an overreaction on the 2nd game of the season when they were like 5-1 in preseason?

Don’t waste your time watching. Not good for your overall health


Also spoilers: They’re going to lose 25-35 more times like most teams. Buckle up

 

[socko]

This bad of an overreaction on the 2nd game of the season when they were like 5-1 in preseason?

Don’t waste your time watching. Not good for your overall health


Also spoilers: They’re going to lose 25-35 more times like most teams. Buckle up

Not basing it on the 2 games. Dubas inherited a better team than we have today.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Not basing it on the 2 games. Dubas inherited a better team than we have today.

In what way is that even remotely true?

 

[socko]

In what way is that even remotely true?

Depth at forward.
Team speed.
Contract values.
I would give the edge to the current defense even though they've been terrible so far this year.

 

[Zack47]

I tried to post about the prospects of this team after the Habs win -- because I wanted to say it before there were losses. When you look at the muted crowd reaction on opening night, at this site, the general tone out there is not good -- and why should it be? There are many comments here about the problems on defense, and yet, I do not think that is the first problem. The first problem is the slow progressive downgrade over the last three years in the "Next 5" after the "Big 4" at forward. From Kadri, Hyman, Brown, Kapanen, and Johnsson, to..... what? Name our next best five forwards. Now compare them to that list. We have a problem, a big problem. How do you replace the potential 100 goals a year those five could score?

Why did this happen? Spillover downstream from too many high-end contracts, but especially, ones that do not sit well with the team overall -- Marner. Dregs said he doesn't care at all about what fans think when he was negotiating, but look what happened Mitch: is this what you wanted?

I hope it gets better, but... little hope really.

 

[Tak7]

Depth at forward.
Team speed.
Contract values.
I would give the edge to the current defense even though they've been terrible so far this year.

I ....... can't even disagree with this.

I do think the defense is a lot better (it doesn't just edge the previous iteration of the Leafs), but the rest of the things, you are absolutely right about.

 

[Tak7]

It's actually depressing to think about just how far away this team is from being a true contender, despite being this many years into the most skilled core we will see here for many, many years.

 

[hotpaws]

the problem isn't the loss , the problem is we have too many slow ineffective players , sure the ones who get to play on the top 2 lines will put up some points but we need more from our depth players than to just hang around the crease

giving 11m to JT is killing this team and shifting the blame to Marner isn't going to deflect away from this reality nor is pretending he's playing on some elite level going to change the fact he's way to slow to be a game changer

Muzzin losing another step that he couldn't afford to lose is going to bury our D core and Holl is a bottom pair D at best

the positive is that when Mathews gets back he and Willie/Mitch/Rielly should be enough to keep us in the playoff hunt as long as the goalies don't fall apart

 

[Jorge Garcia]

Missed the game but wtf they actually counted this?

I wonder what the pay is for their video review crew, I could probably do it so drunk that I can't remember & be considered 'elite'.

If it was a Leafs goal you would have noticed that he tried to play the puck with his stick and missed, and the puck caromed in off his skate when he turned toward the net. Distinct skating motion.

 

[hotpaws]

It's actually depressing to think about just how far away this team is from being a true contender, despite being this many years into the most skilled core we will see here for many, many years.

i agree but that's what's happens when an incompetent poser gets put in charge

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Depth at forward.
Team speed.
Contract values.
I would give the edge to the current defense even though they've been terrible so far this year.

Contract Values: Marleau alone was more overpaid than our entire current roster combined, and he was not the only overpaid player on that roster.
Team Speed: Absolutely not, even with Dubas adding guys like Ritchie and Simmonds to this lineup. The only major speed downgrade was Gardiner to Muzzin, but I would take that trade considering Muzzin is better at pretty much everything else.
Depth at forward: Our C group is better, but our wings are worse. That is the price to pay when you have to find at least 25 mill to pay Matthews/Marner/Nylander (even if we got absolute steals on them). The money had to come from somewhere.

Now let's talk about what has improved:
- Our defense went from bottom 5 in the league under Lou to top half under Dubas after only one year with Dubas in charge. It was top 5 last year, but I am not including last year for a number of reasons. Our PK is also much better under Dubas.
- We were able to replace Andersen, who completely fell off of a cliff under Dubas after effectively carrying the Leafs to the playoffs under Lou. If Andersen played like he did the past two years behind those teams in 2016-2017 and 2017-2018, we would not have been a playoff team those years.
- Our offense, while losing depth, has managed to be much more effective at ES. Admittedly, that should be somewhat expected since guys like Matthews/Marner/Nylander should have improved, but they have not played 25+ mill better than they did on their ELC's.

 

[Tak7]

i agree but that's what's happens when an incompetent poser gets put in charge

Really wanted Dubas to succeed.

Think the second he married himself to the core for this coming season, he was doomed.

I don't see any scenario where he survives this season, and sadly it'll be down to his loyalty for his guys. He deserved better.

 

[ottomaddox]

Montreal is not expected to make the playoffs. The Lightening have proven themselves, I think?

The Leafs look the same as they did in when they got eliminated. In fact they look worse.

This team is in for a dogfight to get into the playoffs and losing to the Sens and struggling against the Habs is not getting it done.

The worst is not the final outcome. It's the way they played. They do not look any different than the team who has lost in the first round in previous seasons.

Time to embrace the darkness.

 

[hamzarocks]

Contract Values: Marleau alone was more overpaid than our entire current roster combined, and he was not the only overpaid player on that roster.
Team Speed: Absolutely not, even with Dubas adding guys like Ritchie and Simmonds to this lineup. The only major speed downgrade was Gardiner to Muzzin, but I would take that trade considering Muzzin is better at pretty much everything else.
Depth at forward: Our C group is better, but our wings are worse. That is the price to pay when you have to find at least 25 mill to pay Matthews/Marner/Nylander (even if we got absolute steals on them). The money had to come from somewhere.

Now let's talk about what has improved:
- Our defense went from bottom 5 in the league under Lou to top half under Dubas after only one year with Dubas in charge. It was top 5 last year, but I am not including last year for a number of reasons. Our PK is also much better under Dubas.
- We were able to replace Andersen, who completely fell off of a cliff under Dubas after effectively carrying the Leafs to the playoffs under Lou. If Andersen played like he did the past two years behind those teams in 2016-2017 and 2017-2018, we would not have been a playoff team those years.
- Our offense, while losing depth, has managed to be much more effective at ES. Admittedly, that should be somewhat expected since guys like Matthews/Marner/Nylander should have improved, but they have not played 25+ mill better than they did on their ELC's.

The Leafs lost a bunch of depth at offense to fit in Muzzin and Brodie, fit in the big 4s contracts (which are collectively 4-5M overpaid) and deal with past 2 years of flat cap).


Kadri downgraded to Kerfoot, only good thing is Kadri gets suspended in the playoffs so not the worse thing as he's not a proven reliable guy there

We downgraded kapanen to mikheyev which especially sucks as kapanen looks to be breaking out into a quality 1st line winger while with us he was a great 3rd line 45 point guy

We lost Johnsson who was a 40+ pt 3rd line winger. This one isn't to bad with how bad AJ was in 2021 on the devils but his replacement is who? Kase? Healthy kase should be able to give 40ish points or so

We downgraded Hyman a 50-60 point 1st line winger for Bunting whose looking to prove himself in the NHL. Bunting has skill and decent tools but he's an unproven player while Hyman was great at his job during the regular season at the minimum

We also lost good wingers like Connor brown, whose completely broken out the past two years into a top 6 winger and Trevor Moore whose a quality 4th line player. Their replacement would be Ritchie and Engvall? Ritchie hasn't looked great but it's 2 games and Engvall is a constantly frustrating player who isn't good offensively and plays a lackadaisical style

The 2018-2019 leafs team was the best team we've had under the dubas era. Had the most depth and we went against the burins and outplayed them before choking due to terrible PK and not showing up to game 7

2018-2019 the team felt the closest to competing and looked primed to be a deep playoff team. 2021 the North divison gave optimism due to easy playoff matchups but we blew it. The leafs team is worse than they were in 2019. 2019 Andersen was a top 7 gone on the league, dude was elite. Mrazek is unproven and injury prone, Campbell is good but not at 2019 Andersen level yet.

 

[hotpaws]

Really wanted Dubas to succeed.

Think the second he married himself to the core for this coming season, he was doomed.

I don't see any scenario where he survives this season, and sadly it'll be down to his loyalty for his guys. He deserved better.

i've wanted every GM we've had for 5 decades to succeed , lol

and i've heard enough how poor Dubie is being betrayed by the core he showed loyalty too , that's just an excuse he and Shanny have cooked up to try to shift the blame from there incompetence onto the players

the fact is you can't spend over 30m on 3 forwards , especially when there not elite like JT

and no Dubas doesn't deserve better but the fan base does

 

[Racer88]

Damn a team without a top 3 player in the world look worse than before? Tell me more

If they have nothing left when Matthews is out what are they paying Tavares and Marner 11 million for

 

[Racer88]

I tried to post about the prospects of this team after the Habs win -- because I wanted to say it before there were losses. When you look at the muted crowd reaction on opening night, at this site, the general tone out there is not good -- and why should it be? There are many comments here about the problems on defense, and yet, I do not think that is the first problem. The first problem is the slow progressive downgrade over the last three years in the "Next 5" after the "Big 4" at forward. From Kadri, Hyman, Brown, Kapanen, and Johnsson, to..... what? Name our next best five forwards. Now compare them to that list. We have a problem, a big problem. How do you replace the potential 100 goals a year those five could score?

Why did this happen? Spillover downstream from too many high-end contracts, but especially, ones that do not sit well with the team overall -- Marner. Dregs said he doesn't care at all about what fans think when he was negotiating, but look what happened Mitch: is this what you wanted?

I hope it gets better, but... little hope really.

You are absolutely correct. Dubas has had to gut the heart and middle of this team because of the big 4 and to add insult to injury the fibulas 4 can’t get the job done.

 

[Tak7]

i've wanted every GM we've had for 5 decades to succeed , lol

and i've heard enough how poor Dubie is being betrayed by the core he showed loyalty too , that's just an excuse he and Shanny have cooked up to try to shift the blame from there incompetence onto the players

the fact is you can't spend over 30m on 3 forwards , especially when there not elite like JT

and no Dubas doesn't deserve better but the fan base does

Nah, I disagree - I think there's always room for loyalty, and if the cap went up, you could have started to surround those big contracts with other nice pieces in the same way that Pittsburgh did initially around their big 4 contracts. Once the cap stayed flat, and you realized you didn't have a winner, the plan needed to be adjusted and they didn't do it - that will be their biggest downfall

I don't think Dubas and Shanny are trying to shift blame. Nothing that either of them have said, has suggested that they have any issue taking responsibility on their own shoulders. I'm not sure why you feel they would some skirt away from the blame? Dubas often takes much of it on his own.

 

[Dreakmur]

Nah, I disagree - I think there's always room for loyalty, and if the cap went up, you could have started to surround those big contracts with other nice pieces in the same way that Pittsburgh did initially around their big 4 contracts. Once the cap stayed flat, and you realized you didn't have a winner, the plan needed to be adjusted and they didn't do it - that will be their biggest downfall

I don't think Dubas and Shanny are trying to shift blame. Nothing that either of them have said, has suggested that they have any issue taking responsibility on their own shoulders. I'm not sure why you feel they would some skirt away from the blame? Dubas often takes much of it on his own.

If the cap went up, so too would the cost of the UFAs we signed. We’d likely have the exact same team, just some would have higher cap hits.

 

[hotpaws]

Nah, I disagree - I think there's always room for loyalty, and if the cap went up, you could have started to surround those big contracts with other nice pieces in the same way that Pittsburgh did initially around their big 4 contracts. Once the cap stayed flat, and you realized you didn't have a winner, the plan needed to be adjusted and they didn't do it - that will be their biggest downfall

I don't think Dubas and Shanny are trying to shift blame. Nothing that either of them have said, has suggested that they have any issue taking responsibility on their own shoulders. I'm not sure why you feel they would some skirt away from the blame? Dubas often takes much of it on his own.

of course they're trying to shift to shift the blame to the core and away from the trash they surrounded them with , that's why they going on and on about how they believe in them

and also i believe this core can win a cup , what i have a hard time believing is this core can win a cup with the players Dubas surrounded them with