Semin's contract set the starting point for Kessel's?

[Damisoph]

Brooding, what brooding?

As far as I'm concerned we still need another 2 years to see what Hamilton turns into, before we can gauge the true horridity of this ill fated trade.

Brood - To focus the attention on a subject persistently and moodily;

Sounds like brooding to me man.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

How can you even try to lump Kessel in with Ryan, they are not even remotely close to the kind of player in that regard.

2009 / 2012,,,, 3 seasons Ryan has 400 hits total.

Kessel, 36 hits total in those same 3 seasons.


400>36 in 3 seasons=night and day.

Teemu, yup there is a comparable there, first ballot hall of famers tend to be given some grace to their short comings.

I love how you said Lump when you totally ignored his point totals and his other body work Not to mention Ryan being on the walls of one of the best centers in the league, in Ryan Getzlaf.

I don't have to use stats although I can do so pretty easily, I watch games and talk to those who see it from an unbiased perspective and make my assessment. Have you watched Bobby Ryan in his first season where he was running horrible defensively? While making hits? Did you see what was Selanne when he was a with the ducks and how he had to focus his two-way game and recover to becoming the Finnish Flash when he was tearing the league apart even under Carlyle but have become a calming presence? After his injuries? Still recall some claiming Carlyle's game will ruin Kessel and won't let him thrive offensively yet here we are.

Joffrey Lupul whom every is praising and believe is the replacement of Kessel, which IMO is very foolish, as one is 29 and the other is just 25. Went through the same process, he was an awkward skater in his WHL days, and horrid defensively. Yet a dynamic scorer on the wall, infact the ducks have someone very similar in their system called Emerson Etem, it's uncanny really. However he learned how to improve his game and evolve it. Semin who is producing at the same clip as Kessel, although brought into to be a sniper is atm more of a passing man, although I believe that has something to do with playing with a beauty of a player called Eric Staal got 7 million of the next few years at the age of 29. If a young winger who's offensive game is morphing, while rounding out his game even further and producing at the same clip as those players, with a center named tyler bozak at the age of 25 asking me for 7 million. I give it to him Immediately.

 

[Mess]

Would you not say tho, that it's a difficult comparable(+/-) when ones C is E Staal and the others is Bozak?

Well it would be tough at contract time for a player to argue that its his teammates that are responsible for his success and contribution and not himself.

Kessel has 10 goals in 38 games this year which puts him on pace for 21.5 (over an 82 game season). Which would be his worst as a Leaf heading into a contract renewal season.

Bozak has been a common denominator throughout, as he has centered Kessel for most of his time here. What has changed is the coach and the system, which is the greater factor effecting Kessel. IMO

If the argument remains Kessel needs better players to be better, than its also logical to suggest that better use of cap space and money would be on acquiring and spending them on those better players to benefit the team more, as simply paying Kessel more money isn't going to change anything. Good players demanding top dollars make player(s) around them better by their presence, not the other way around.

Thus the belief by some that trading Kessel for those player(s) addresses a means to better the team by using him as the asset to acquire them, should be an option worthy of consideration.

 

[Primary Assist]

it's going to be really funny to see what happens when the Leafs finally land a legit number 1 center and Kessel becomes one of the highest scoring RWs in the Eastern Conference (oh wait, he already is?) and completely changes the face of this team. My money's on a third of them shutting up, a third of them switching sides and praising him and a third who are still gonna moan and cry about every little thing he does wrong.

 

[Faltorvo]

Well it would be tough at contract time for a player to argue that its his teammates that are responsible for his success and contribution and not himself.

Kessel has 10 goals in 38 games this year which puts him on pace for 21.5 (over an 82 game season). Which would be his worst as a Leaf heading into a contract renewal season.

Bozak has been a common denominator throughout, as he has centered Kessel for most of his time here. What has changed is the coach and the system, which is the greater factor effecting Kessel. IMO

If the argument remains Kessel needs better players to be better, than its also logical to suggest that better use of cap space and money would be on acquiring and spending them on those better players to benefit the team more, as simply paying Kessel more money isn't going to change anything. Good players demanding top dollars make player(s) around them better by their presence, not the other way around.

Thus the belief by some that trading Kessel for those player(s) addresses a means to better the team by using him as the asset to acquire them, should be an option worthy of consideration.

"needs better players to be better" rings true for 99% of the league.

It's the rare super star, generational talent that can make due.

I'm torn on the debate about the coaching issue.

What i see, is over the last 2 seasons the addition of Lups/JVR as his LW winger, has changed his shoot first mentality.

Lups has a more rounded game on the O side, he can set up and bury, JVR is pretty much a finisher, hence the drop in goal totals and not so much with the helpers.

Frankly, i don't see Bozak creating anything out there, give JVR/Kess a C who can be a 15/55 type and that line would explode.

I'd be very interested in seeing what ROR could do between JVR/Kess as a 1rst/2nd line.

 

[Mess]

"needs better players to be better" rings true for 99% of the league.

It's the rare super star, generational talent that can make due.

I'm torn on the debate about the coaching issue.

What i see, is over the last 2 seasons the addition of Lups/JVR as his LW winger, has changed his shoot first mentality.

Lups has a more rounded game on the O side, he can set up and bury, JVR is pretty much a finisher, hence the drop in goal totals and not so much with the helpers.

Frankly, i don't see Bozak creating anything out there, give JVR/Kess a C who can be a 15/55 type and that line would explode.

I'd be very interested in seeing what ROR could do between JVR/Kess as a 1rst/2nd line.

I guess the biggest question remains what does Kessel bring to the table outside of his offense? Few would argue he is a gifted offensive player with great speed.

However is he the inspirational leader that carries the team on his back into a tough battle or rallies a team around him?. That doesn't have much to do with his center but rather his own abilities and contributions.

If Kadri and others are deserving of raises and you only have so much cap space\money to spend to build a team, do you invest top $$ in Kessel is the million dollar question Nonis will be facing soon?

That still doesn't address that top center in either acquisition nor cap cost that would go with that. A big factor in that need is the belief its required to make Kessel better. Well a top center playing along side JVR or Lupul or etc would make them all better as well by the same reasoning.

It basicially comes down to ones belief if Kessel is a primary or secondary player via contributions that go beyond just goals and assists when it comes to deciding how much a player is worth financially to his team. Some players make others around them better or the team better, while other(s) rely on others to do that, while their along for the ride.

The playoffs which will see tighter checking and lower scoring and greater focus on defense will be a good measuring stick how Kessel performs and contributes in them when it comes to his next contract. Will he be an instrumental leader, scoring key goals or be invisible when the going gets tough?.

 

[diceman934]

Well it would be tough at contract time for a player to argue that its his teammates that are responsible for his success and contribution and not himself.

Kessel has 10 goals in 38 games this year which puts him on pace for 21.5 (over an 82 game season). Which would be his worst as a Leaf heading into a contract renewal season.

Bozak has been a common denominator throughout, as he has centered Kessel for most of his time here. What has changed is the coach and the system, which is the greater factor effecting Kessel. IMO

If the argument remains Kessel needs better players to be better, than its also logical to suggest that better use of cap space and money would be on acquiring and spending them on those better players to benefit the team more, as simply paying Kessel more money isn't going to change anything. Good players demanding top dollars make player(s) around them better by their presence, not the other way around.

Thus the belief by some that trading Kessel for those player(s) addresses a means to better the team by using him as the asset to acquire them, should be an option worthy of consideration.

Well explained.

I'm fine with Keep Kessel, but not at 7.5 to 8 million a year....no thanks. I would think that a contract that pays him 6.5 a year for 5 years is a fair contract for what he brings to the team. If we can not sign him at a fair amount then he needs to be moved for assets that can help us moving forward.

Remember this "my contract sucks" we never need to sign a player for more money than he is worth as the contact must be trade-able, as players are assets, and good asset management means that you sign players to contract that will not prevent you from trading them in the future.

Have we learned nothing from Komi's and now Grabo's contracts.

 

[BayStreetBullies*]

Well explained.

I'm fine with Keep Kessel, but not at 7.5 to 8 million a year....no thanks. I would think that a contract that pays him 6.5 a year for 5 years is a fair contract for what he brings to the team. If we can not sign him at a fair amount then he needs to be moved for assets that can help us moving forward.

Tell us, who are these magical assets you speak of?

Remember this "my contract sucks" we never need to sign a player for more money than he is worth as the contact must be trade-able, as players are assets, and good asset management means that you sign players to contract that will not prevent you from trading them in the future.

Have we learned nothing from Komi's and now Grabo's contracts.

Because Kessel is really comparable to the likes of Luongo, Komi, and Grabo.

 

[LEAFSIN4]

7 years/47 million.. broken down like this 9 8 7 6 6 6 5 = 6.71 million average

I think both sides can do that... Kessel takes around .750 million under market value for a longer term... contract takes him until he's 33, not bad.

Semin's contract has him locked in until he's 34 at 7 million.

 

[pcruz]

This team has been plagued with one major problem for as long as I have been a fan.

First, we had a true, superstar, big, strong centre who could score, create and even help out on the back end. The team never went out and got him someone to play with to take the pressure of expectations off his back. They tried some random guys, and he turned them into pretty decent point producers, but they were just that, guys.

This guy played here until he retired. Decided he wanted to come back, was denied in Toronto and played a bit elsewhere, retired for good and a few years later enshrined in the Hockey Hall of Fame.

A few things stick out from his career numbers: Number of consecutive 20 goal seasons, number of 30 goal seasons, number of games played per season, number of points per game played and interestingly, +/-.

Now, +/- is a stupid stat to look at, but considering he played on a rather successful team towards the end of his career in Toronto, you'd expect better than +73 in 1350 games. But, I digress.

This player I'm using as an example of this team's misfortunes was always the one to be thrown under the bus when his team faltered, first to be criticized for his lack of physical game, even though he's 6'4 and 230 lb, and when listening to the radio back then, before the social media explosion we have today, the majority of the vocals wanted him not only ousted as captain, but also moved out.

Fast forward a few years and we have the missing piece to that guy's puzzle. But the puzzle is changed now and the new guy doesn't have the kind of player mentioned above.

This new guy, is not physical by any stretch, is on most nights a liability defensively, is not an outspoken, charismatic personality, but he delivers his quota offensively each and every season (this season does not count, and should not count due to the lockout, not only the 34 games missing, but the duration of the season, the lack of a training camp and the fact that AHL players had a running start as opposed to the other racers starting while finishing their lunch).

This new guy is not being thrown under the bus whenever his team falters, and in the social media scene, the vocals are calling for him to be shipped out. The interesting thing, is that the team has an up and coming centre who could potentially, if the stars align, turn into the kind of player as I first mentioned.

So, here is the question. Do we keep going in this cycle of one guy who can command some attention from the other teams, but handicapping him by not complimenting him with other guys just as scary, or do we break out of the cycle and have both?

Kadri will not do well next season. He's a good player, he can become a really, really good player. Point per game is definitely possible for him, as well as being a #1 C, but he will not be a guy who can do it all by himself without having the scoring threat on his wing or another line.

If the question comes down to spending 1 million per season more than the team would like to spend in the #1 winger position in order to keep a guy like Phil Kessel, then it is a stupid decision not to. The very best you can hope to achieve in trading him for pieces, or picks, is to get one or two players who combined can generate not only the offensive numbers, but the respect that Kessel demands from other teams.

"HAHAHA, respect you say....." - yes, respect, it's been 4 seasons and Kessel has done nothing to Boston, yet CJ still puts Chara with a leash around Kessel and has him following the guy 25 minutes a night. You'd think that after 4 years of ineptitude against a team that the guy might be forgotten, but a Stanley Cup winning coach disagrees with that sentiment.

By the way, I am not comparing Kessel to Sundin, I am comparing the situations the same organization is facing now, with that which it was facing in the early 2000's and late 90's. The cycle of great centre and no winger followed by great winger and no centre has to stop. If it costs a little more than one would like, so be it.

I would love it if the Leafs could add either a true #2 centre and try Kadri up, or, ideally, a #1 centre who could actually improve Kessel's game, instead of having Kessel improve the game of his centre and the other winger.

 

[diceman934]

Tell us, who are these magical assets you speak of?



Because Kessel is really comparable to the likes of Luongo, Komi, and Grabo.

Any assets that help our team....there is nothing magical about making trades.

If we paid Kessel what he is going to ask for then yes he will be like those players...he will also be seeking an 8 year term and that is 3 years to long in my eyes...when you pay a player more then their value they become players who become very difficult to trade.

We could have traded Komi if he was paid around 2.5 to 3 million.

If you can not understand this concept....then it should be me shaking my head.

 

[BayStreetBullies*]

If we paid Kessel what he is going to ask for then yes he will be like those players...he will also be seeking an 8 year term and that is 3 years to long in my eyes...when you pay a player more then their value they become players who become very difficult to trade.

Kessel is 25, if he signs an 8 year contract it takes him to 33-34. He would not be very difficult to trade. If you can't understand that, then I should be shaking my head again.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Kessel is 25, if he signs an 8 year contract it takes him to 33-34. He would not be very difficult to trade. If you can't understand that, then I should be shaking my head again.

Kessel will turn 26 this year when his final year of his current contract starts. When that contracts runs out and his new 8 year deal starts he will be 27 so that takes him to the age of 35 when his contract runs out.

 

[BayStreetBullies*]

Kessel will turn 26 this year when his final year of his current contract starts. When that contracts runs out and his new 8 year deal starts he will be 27 so that takes him to the age of 35 when his contract runs out.

Does that make him any less tradeable before then?

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Does that make him any less tradeable before then?

THe productive years of a sniper use to end before they turn 30. There is a lot of exceptions of course and if Kessel turns out to be one then of course he could get traded, but then again, why would we want to if that was the case?

I dont like to sign players long term who rely so heavily on just one aspect of the game, namely the offensive. Same reason I would not want to sign a defensive d-man long term either. Once they struggle they dont have anything else to offer, there is not other ways they can help the team out. Better to have them on shorter deals (max 5 years) so they at least have to push them self harder to stay competitive in hope of getting a new contract. Kessel is at his prime right now, I dont see him getting much better but slowly decline somewhat. Dont really think this season is any proof of that seeing as it is a shortened season. But I doubt he will be a point per game player any more.

Edit:
Having said that, he do develop new ways to put up points and get his team mates involved so there is hope.

 

[ULF_55]

Stajan has 23 ES Points?

 

[LEAFSIN4]

lol @ this thread. anyone looking to see what Kessel means to this team just needs to watch todays game

 

[pcruz]

lol @ this thread. anyone looking to see what Kessel means to this team just needs to watch todays game

One should never determine the monetary worth of a player based off of one game. Be it a 15 point game or a game with 0 goals/assists/shots/pim/anything else and -10.

 

[cyris]

Kessel will turn 26 this year when his final year of his current contract starts. When that contracts runs out and his new 8 year deal starts he will be 27 so that takes him to the age of 35 when his contract runs out.

In 8 years the cap will probably be over 90M. So his hit will still be fair for a player of his age and expected production.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

lol @ this thread. anyone looking to see what Kessel means to this team just needs to watch todays game

So if we revisit this thread when PK have had a bad game he is not worth anything?

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

In 8 years the cap will probably be over 90M. So his hit will still be fair for a player of his age and expected production.

Well that could be the case. Still want him signed to a 5 year deal instead of an 8 year deal even if the cap hit will turn out to be higher.

 

[Pi]

Well that could be the case. Still want him signed to a 5 year deal instead of an 8 year deal even if the cap hit will turn out to be higher.

Why would he take a 5 year deal when he can get a 7 year deal in UFA?

He's 25-26 right now...He's not going to lose his playmaking skills and his shot even when he's 32.

He'll get slower but how many times has Kessel scored a goal this season where he comes down the wing and snipes it?

He adapted his game...he knows when to put the breaks and pass the puck right up the middle for a one timer.

 

[Srsly]

I love how everyone argues against long term signings with our star players. Yes, it's ideal to offer a five year contract but the average player is human and is looking for job security in a contract. You can't keep signing 19 year olds to five year contracts and win the cup. Sometimes you need a vet or two and they're going to cost you.

Kessel is one of the top players in the league. I'm not going to argue that he stacks up againts Stamkos and Malkin in value but he is what he is. And he's earned a decent contract.

Arguing that Semin is better than him is another matter. Semin is more physical but Phil is less volatile in the dressing room. You have to remember that Semin is a guy that most gms were terrified of acquiring last year. Phil on the other hand is easy going and more desirable to have in your dressing room.

 

[LEAFSIN4]

So if we revisit this thread when PK have had a bad game he is not worth anything?

Doesn't matter what I say here, Kessel haters will do that regardless.

He is a threat to score every single time he is on the ice. Today was another indication of that.

 

[kdot222]

Kessel is a one dimensional player, that much is obvious. He is not, however, purely a sniper. He makes his linemates better as he is an exceptional passer, but he also makes every other forward on the team better by constantly facing the oppositions top defenseman. He is more important to this team then many realize, and I do not like to imagine the Leafs without him.