I'm not misrepresenting anything, which just proves you have no idea what a straw-man argument is. I merely pointed out the double standards which exist on HFboards. Which leads me to believe that you're guilty of using such standards, otherwise you wouldn't have been so offended by what I said.
Semin's contract set the starting point for Kessel's?
- Thread starter Jeebs
- Start date
I'm not misrepresenting anything, which just proves you have no idea what a straw-man argument is. I merely pointed out the double standards which exist on HFboards. Which leads me to believe that you're guilty of using such standards, otherwise you wouldn't have been so offended by what I said.
Garbs
Registered User
I'm cherry picking by taking the entirety of this year and last? I don't think you understand the term. Obviously I'm going to start at the point where he established himself as a elite talent in the NHL.
Those are some names on your spreadsheet, thanks for sharing. Was that supposed to be a counter? Good one.
I think the irony is that he cherry picked stats to make Kessel look as bad as possible, but was still left arguing that Kessel was "only" as good as guys like St. Louis and Ovechkin.
VO5
Registered User
Its okay to pay elite talent top end money. We just need to stay away from the Komi, Finger, Armstrong inflated ufa contracts.
We all know kessel is a streaky scorer. And there in lies the problem. When the puck goes in like it has been for the past handful of games, everything is great. But 7 million for a streaky goal scorer is scary.
I noticed him once tonight, and that was on the goal. For that kind of cash, I want that player to grab the team by the horns and make something happen.
No question it's a tough debate. Smarter men then me get paid a lot more than me to make these kinds of decisions.
I noticed him once tonight, and that was on the goal. For that kind of cash, I want that player to grab the team by the horns and make something happen.
No question it's a tough debate. Smarter men then me get paid a lot more than me to make these kinds of decisions.
SpeakerForTheDead
Registered User
Streaky? Well if that's your definition of streaky.
Do a little search and find out what is the longest streak Kessel has gone over the last two seasons without a point. It might just shock you.
Also, can anyone find out the % of games Kessel and Lupul got points in last season, at one point just before Lupul got injured, I believe they hadn't gotten points in as little as 5 games.
Want one other way of looking at it. Kessel has gotten no less than 30 goals each season with the Leafs other than this season, you know, the shortened season. Over that stretch (4 years), how many multiple goal games has he gotten, how many 3 goal + games, and how many single goal games?
I mean, if a 35 goal guy gets 10 hat tricks, then he's only scored in 15 games max. If that same guy gets 8 2-goal games, then that bumps up his games scored to 27 games. If he doesn't get any multi goal games, then he's scored in 35 games.
I'm too lazy to look these things up, but if anyone knows where to find out this information, it would really be helpful in the "Kessel is streaky" debate.
anderson3133
Registered User
Kessel is now the goal scorer for 16.67% of our team's wins this season.
People are scared of giving him $7,000,000 despite his current game-winning goals being worth $10,500,000 (16.67% x next year's cap of $63,000,000).
People are scared of giving him $7,000,000 despite his current game-winning goals being worth $10,500,000 (16.67% x next year's cap of $63,000,000).
Apparently it's easy to copy the game logs for the season from nhl.com right to excel and with some simple logic statements get some numbers.
Say we compare Kessel's numbers last season with someone else, someone not streaky, Stamkos. What do their number of games with a goal totals look like:
Kessel - 50 games without a goal, 44 games without an assist, 25 games without a point.
Stamkos - 37 games without a goal, 50 games without an assist, 22 games without a point.
For a guy who is consistent as a scorer, got 60 goals last season, Stamkos isn't much more consistent than Phil "streaky" Kessel.
It's late, tomorrow I'll do some more of these little calculations. Just thought I'd give you guys some food for thought.
Say we compare Kessel's numbers last season with someone else, someone not streaky, Stamkos. What do their number of games with a goal totals look like:
Kessel - 50 games without a goal, 44 games without an assist, 25 games without a point.
Stamkos - 37 games without a goal, 50 games without an assist, 22 games without a point.
For a guy who is consistent as a scorer, got 60 goals last season, Stamkos isn't much more consistent than Phil "streaky" Kessel.
It's late, tomorrow I'll do some more of these little calculations. Just thought I'd give you guys some food for thought.
My Sweet Shadow
Registered User
It all depends on what direction Nonis wants the team to go. If he wants Kessel to be one of the pillars that this team's future is built on, then I'm perfectly fine with 7M for Kessel; it's more than fair considering what his market value would be. It will just limit us from going after some of the bigger free agents going forward.
RealisticLeaf55
Win it clean for J.T
With the Leafs closer to a you-know-what spot, you have to think our big guys like Phaneuf/Kessel will want to be a part of this team. I guess Neuf gets a similar contract to what he has now and Kessel goes for 6.75-7.25 for 5-6 years?
P.S: Not this off-season but others to come, if we maintain this style of compete you have to think we garnish interest by soon to be good free agents?
P.S: Not this off-season but others to come, if we maintain this style of compete you have to think we garnish interest by soon to be good free agents?
I'm hoping he accepts 7. He can get 8 but if he does people will ask why no home town discount, is he overpaid blah blah blah. At 6.9 million he is a bargain though. At 7.25 million it's probably fair. At 7.5 it's reasonable but don't want to go any higher. At 8 he will suddenly be perceived as overpaid, whether he is or isn't. 7.5 with term is what he should get.
Yikes. I don't know, 7 million a bargain? Kid has talent in one phase of the game. That's a whole lot of cake for a one dimensional player. And when he goes cold in that one dimension...
I said earlier, smarter people then me will make that decision but from where I sit, I wouldn't put my eggs in that basket.
I said earlier, smarter people then me will make that decision but from where I sit, I wouldn't put my eggs in that basket.
firstemperor
Registered User
- May 25, 2011
- 8,755
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Anything more than 7 makes him have an albatross type value. If we can't get him for 7mil, I'd look to move him. I don't think he's as key to our success as many here believe. He's certainly not worth 8, even in today's market.
Good thing you aren't the one making decisions for the team then lol. The one dimensional player argument has been beaten to death around here even though Kessel continues to prove it wrong with every going game. Kessel is on pace for 50+ assists and a positive +/-, both stats have improved every year hes been on the leafs. So he's proven he can contribute when not scoring and that he's not a complete defensive liability. We done? Give the guy under 7 - 7.5 and get it over with asap because he is by far the best player the leafs have had in over a decade who is not replaceable without giving the same assets we used to get him in the first place.
hotpaws
Registered User
- Nov 21, 2009
- 21,594
- 6,897
One dimensional means he's an offensive player , it doesn't mean he's only a goal scorer . He's a dynamic offensive player but he may be the softest player in the league and a liability in our end .
Judging by his last contract negotiations he's going to want every last penny he thinks he can get . He'll probably ask for at least 7.5 x 8 and if he signs for anything less it should be considered a job well done by Nonis .
If we could a 2nd overall this year and another 1st i'll drive him to the airport myself .
It might not seem like it, but 37 and 50 games is a huge difference.
Kessel has impressed me this year, his vision and improved defensive effort especially. I still think his kryptonite is physical play, it's one thing that he isn't physical, but it's another that he can be taken out of a game with physicality.
6.5-7 million seems fair. You can't spend more than that on a player unless he shows he can produce against all types of opposition.
I Know what your saying but if you read the post I was replying to it seemed like he was referring to Kessel not contributing when not scoring. However, playmaking and scoring are both IMO two different dimensions of being a forward. Kessel might not be willing to be a physical player, but his main role on this team is production. He wasn't brought in for his physicality or defensive awareness. As long as he isn't a complete defensive liability on the ice, he's playing the role he was brought in to accomplish. So far it seems like Phil does enjoy being in Toronto, and now that the teams winning he should be comfortable remaining part of the team if we are willing to give him between 7 - 7.5.
As for the thought of a trade, were past that part in our rebuild like it or not. This draft is so deep no one in the top 5 will even think about it. You have to hope to resign Kessel and only if that's not do-able do you look at moving him.
He is the definition of a one demensional player. Offensively talented and that is it.
Don't get me wrong, he's a nice player with a nice skill set. My argument is handcuffing yourself to an unmovable contract for a player who doesn't participate in other areas of the game.
I make the same argument for semin. Nice player, horrid contract. Believe me, I would love to bump this thread in June and look foolish cause 81 just carried the team to a 1st round playoff victory. If he proves his doubters wrong, pay the 7+ mill speculated. I have a bad feeling a round won will be more in spite of him rather than because of him.
RealisticLeaf55
Win it clean for J.T
As the years have gone by, Kessel has developed his game into something better. Is he still a bit soft? Hell yes. But now he stops breakaways and has gone into the boards from time to time to make a play or to keep the play in the attacking zone.
We get rid of Kessel we will feel the Zach Parise Effect. Your best forward goes, your team will falter. Like it or not, Kessel helps make this team HIGHLY competitive and his playmaking abilities has benefitted every player that has played on his line.
hotpaws
Registered User
- Nov 21, 2009
- 21,594
- 6,897
There's no need to try to split hairs to boost up PK's value as a player , he's proved he's a dynamic offensive player .
No ones asking him to be a physical player but his complete aversion to any contact is what drives people nuts .
We'll see this summer what his intensions are in regards to his contract . I want to either sign him to a reasonable contract or trade him , i don't want these negotiations to drag into the season .
I certainly wouldnt want to have him walk for nothing. I have know idea what his value would be, but the idea of moving him rather than overpay him has to be considered.
RealisticLeaf55
Win it clean for J.T
I couldn't agree more, however: I have no doubt that if the Leafs keep this type of play up, you have to think that this will sway players such as PK and DP to re-sign long-term.
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