Second impressions of Marty St. Louis (Mod warning in OP)

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Based on what we gave up and what we received. Could wind up being a disaster.

I think disaster is a massive exaggeration. The only way it turns out to be a disaster is if they players TB picks turn out to be all stars. Even then, it wouldn't be a guarantee that we would've taken the same players, but I think that's the only way the trade turns into a disaster.

The thing with picks is that they are still an unknown. They could get the next Getzlaf with a mid to later first round pick from us or they could get the next nobody who never cracks an NHL roster.

It's not like we traded a Ryan McDonagh like prospect along with Cally. Though he was just a prospect, he was an actual player in the trade and Montreal fans see the guy who they had in their system come to our team and flourish. The picks could become valuable players but they are unknown entities right not, lottery tickets as people refer to them.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I'll explain. Sather had a coveted rental for the first time in a very long time, and somehow he is one of the few GMs in history to not only use it to get older and smaller, but to somehow lose picks as well.

The rental market was extremely diluted this year. Did you miss the fact that Vanek went for a conditional second and a mid level prospect?

 

[ltrangerfan]

If St louis has a good playoff and the Rangers don't win the cup then the trade was a failure.

If St. LOuis continues to struggle and the Rangers don't win the cup the trade is a failure.

If St louis has a great run and the Rangers win 1 cup then the trade is a failure if 1 or the two draft choices becomes a major star with great longevity?

If St Louis does nothing but the two picks both become major stars then the trade was a bust and Cally should have been signed and Nash should have been traded away?

If the two prospects fail to be more than average picks, St Louis is a major bust, then LUndy should have been traded for picks. One or more of the high picks could turn into a superstar?

It's too late at night for me to deal with this.

 

[Leonardo87]

Rangers have been winning, I mean they have only been facing really bubble teams and bottom dwellers since the trade, and one game they got lucky when Phoenix's Starting goalie got hurt in the last couple of mins and they scored against the back up.

St Louis' performance has not been a major issue, more of a eyebrow raising question, but it has not been put him at the stake or fans wanting him to hang....well not yet, because the Rangers are winning. St Louis is going to learn or maybe is learning already how bitter the NY media and the fans can be, and are ready to attack a player who falls into a slump like a rabid dog.

 

[Cake or Death]

Rangers have been winning, I mean they have only been facing really bubble teams and bottom dwellers since the trade, and one game they got lucky when Phoenix's Starting goalie got hurt in the last couple of mins and they scored against the back up.

St Louis' performance has not been a major issue, more of a eyebrow raising question, but it has not been put him at the stake or fans wanting him to hang....well not yet, because the Rangers are winning. St Louis is going to learn or maybe is learning already how bitter the NY media and the fans can be, and are ready to attack a player who falls into a slump like a rabid dog.

For sure. As annoying and uncharacteristic as the slump is, winning def helps buy time to get though it. I'm pretty patient and laid back and in looking a bit more long-range would like to see us sign Diaz and see what the PP looks like next season with him and St Louis.

 

[bishop12]

look at the ice time he gets.. it's crazy.

Just another victim of the Rangers big name curse. Add him to the graveyard.

 

[True Blue]

To me MSL falls into that select category of special players.

Sure, but remember, he is a depreciating asset. The reality is the chances of his overall performance declining next year is almost 100%. After all, how many players had better years at the age of 39, than 38? So the time line is rather short.

The guy screams credible to me. Legit. So, if he really just craters... then we really do know, once and for all....that things truly are different here.

I get it. I understand that trading for MSL screams differently than trading for Bure or Lindros. But we have seen over and over and over again, that in Rangerland draining your already barren system of much needed assets for aging star players hardly ever works. In that aspect, thins are not really all that different here.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Based on what we gave up and what we received. Could wind up being a disaster.

Well, so could the Nash trade, since he hasn't brought what was expected of him either.

 

[True Blue]

I don't think anyone realistically expects this team to win the Cup.

So then why give away draft picks?

 

[True Blue]

The thing with picks is that they are still an unknown. They could get the next Getzlaf with a mid to later first round pick from us or they could get the next nobody who never cracks an NHL roster.

That may be true, but do you know what you get when you have no picks? Nothing.

The rental market was extremely diluted this year. Did you miss the fact that Vanek went for a conditional second and a mid level prospect?

That does not mean that you have to overpay for a rental of your own.

 

[True Blue]

Well, so could the Nash trade, since he hasn't brought what was expected of him either.

This has also been covered ad nauseum and has its share of detractors.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

That may be true, but do you know what you get when you have no picks? Nothing.

That does not mean that you have to overpay for a rental of your own.

Well, to be fair MSL isn't a retail, he's under contract for next season.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

If we win the Cup and MSL does nothing that will not make the trade a good deal. However, I will not complain since the win NOW trade happened in the win NOW window.

There is nothing inconsistent about my barometer. TO me, this trade is only successful if the Cup is brought here.

I just don't understand. I don't think any result will make you feel like this was a good trade. I guess that's my question. What has to happen for you to say, okay, that was a good trade.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Well, so could the Nash trade, since he hasn't brought what was expected of him either.

TOTALLY agree.

That said, you cannot compare what Rick Nash has contributed to the Rangers to what St Louis has contributed. Not even close. PLUS, Nash is 29 and St Louis is 38.

And you can plead 'small sample size' for St Louis all you want, but the truth is we sacrificed a first and a second for a relatively small sample size for St Louis to begin with, one year plus 20 games, so the clock is ticking much faster on the return in this trade that it is for Nash.

PLUS by all accounts the 2015 draft is considered one of the best draft classes in a long, long time, which means even in our customary 11-20 drafting slot the potential exists, more than in other years, of getting a very good player. Now other teams could be getting very good players, even outside the top 10...but, of course, not us.

 

[True Blue]

Well, to be fair MSL isn't a retail, he's under contract for next season.

Sure, but 1.25 years is still short term.

 

[True Blue]

What has to happen for you to say, okay, that was a good trade.

Win the Cup and have MSL be a contributor.

This can still be a poor trade if he does nothing and they still win the Cup, but winning Cups mutes out flaws.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

TOTALLY agree.

That said, you cannot compare what Rick Nash has contributed to the Rangers to what St Louis has contributed. Not even close. PLUS, Nash is 29 and St Louis is 38.

And you can plead 'small sample size' for St Louis all you want, but the truth is we sacrificed a first and a second for a relatively small sample size for St Louis to begin with, one year plus 20 games, so the clock is ticking much faster on the return in that trade that it is for Nash.

PLUS by all accounts the 2015 draft is considered one of the best draft classes in a long, long time, which means even in our customary 11-20 drafting slot the potential exists, more than in other years, of getting a very good player. Now other teams could be getting very good players, even outside the top 10...but, of course, not us.

1. That draft is more than a year away. We have no idea where we'll be picking in that draft, and we have no idea whether we will have a 1st round pick.

2. I have a question. If we win the Cup, and don't answer this with "we won't win the Cup," but I'm curious - if we win the cup, will you still be mad about the 1st round pick?

I'm just trying to figure out what will make Rangers' fans happy. I don't think fans of this team will ever be happy unless we're stockpiling draft picks and winning Cups.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Win the Cup and have MSL be a contributor.

This can still be a poor trade if he does nothing and they still win the Cup, but winning Cups mutes out flaws.

Okay. So when you say "win a cup or this trade is a failure," you mean "MSL has to carry us to a Cup or this trade is a failure." You're entitled to feel that way, at least I understand now.

 

[Jersey Girl]

1. That draft is more than a year away. We have no idea where we'll be picking in that draft, and we have no idea whether we will have a 1st round pick.

Perhaps Sather can find a GM to trade us a first rounder in 2015 for St Louis. Ya think?

2. I have a question. If we win the Cup, and don't answer this with "we won't win the Cup," but I'm curious - if we win the cup, will you still be mad about the 1st round pick?

Well if St Louis carries us to a Stanley Cup and wins a Conn Smythe, of course in retrospect I will be absolutely thrilled to say I was wrong. If we have playoff success with St Louis continuing his torrid no goals and three points every 14 games pace, I will be just as thrilled, but that would not make me wrong.

I'm just trying to figure out what will make Rangers' fans happy. I don't think fans of this team will ever be happy unless we're stockpiling draft picks and winning Cups.

Some people talk about building a Stanley Cup contender (a true contender, not a team that is fighting for the last couple of playoff spots most every year) while not sacrificing so much of your future like it's some ridiculous concept or something.

 

[True Blue]

Okay. So when you say "win a cup or this trade is a failure," you mean "MSL has to carry us to a Cup or this trade is a failure." You're entitled to feel that way, at least I understand now.

A "win now" trade that is made by a team that is serious contender and is a "one player away" type of team that does not work is understandable. A "win now" trade that is done by a team that is far from being considered a serious contender/one player away type of team is not.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

If St louis has a good playoff and the Rangers don't win the cup then the trade was a failure.

How? If they made the Cup finals, the trade would be a fine trade. Even if they make the ECF.

If St. LOuis continues to struggle and the Rangers don't win the cup the trade is a failure.

It would depend on how he is next season, then.

If St louis has a great run and the Rangers win 1 cup then the trade is a failure if 1 or the two draft choices becomes a major star with great longevity?

How could it be a failure if we win a Cup?

If St Louis does nothing but the two picks both become major stars then the trade was a bust and Cally should have been signed and Nash should have been traded away?

What?

If the two prospects fail to be more than average picks, St Louis is a major bust, then LUndy should have been traded for picks. One or more of the high picks could turn into a superstar?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

But we have seen over and over and over again, that in Rangerland draining your already barren system of much needed assets for aging star players hardly ever works. In that aspect, thins are not really all that different here.

There's a huge difference if you are trading away draft picks with no young players already in the NHL versus what we have (plenty of young guys on our team). The two are completely different scenarios.

 

[Jersey Girl]

How? If they made the Cup finals, the trade would be a fine trade. Even if they make the ECF.

You can make the argument losing in the ECF is in some ways the WORST case scenario, since the cost of acquiring St Louis then jumps to TWO first round draft picks.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

You can make the argument losing in the ECF is in some ways the WORST case scenario, since the cost of acquiring St Louis then jumps to TWO first round draft picks.

Who cares? I'd rather them get to the ECF and lose it than miss out on the ECF.

We don't have future vision so we won't know if they'd win or lose in the ECF. I'd like to see them take their chances rather than lose before it.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Who cares? I'd rather them get to the ECF and lose it than miss out on the ECF.

We don't have future vision so we won't know if they'd win or lose in the ECF. I'd like to see them take their chances rather than lose before it.

I don't disagree, as the goal is to win the Stanley Cup and to do that you have to make the ECF first. Just pointing out making the ECF ups the cost of St Louis, which will hopefully will result in a better return BY St Louis.

Talking too far in advance anyway, we have to get through the Flyers and Penguins before we can even begin thinking about that. Tall order.