Scoring Depth Issues

[TheDoldrums]

The worst part is we won't draft our Bergeron for years thanks to Dubas.

Yeah we would have definitely drafted the best defensive forward ever if only we had a different GM

 

[notDatsyuk]

I don't think anyone is taking what I suspect Pittsburgh to have done seriously. And if the Leafs let this go without an investigation, they are asking for future talent to get poached.

You have no idea what happened, you have no idea if anything untoward happened, and you have no idea whether their has been an investigation.

It's foolish to get upset about something you know nothing about.

 

[keonsbitterness]

The only investigation in that situation should have been psychiatrists monitoring Dubas' mental break at his surreal press conference.

 

[Jojalu]

I will choose to believe the recent scoring drought from all depth players will turn into a scoring surge come playpff time.

BOOK IT

 

[Drytoast]

You have no idea what happened, you have no idea if anything untoward happened, and you have no idea whether their has been an investigation.

It's foolish to get upset about something you know nothing about.

If there were an investigation, it most certainly would have been reported.

We do know what happened. (well if you believe Shanahan's interpretations of the events) Shanny very thoroughly detailed all the main events leading up to Dubas' dismissal or contract retraction. His interpretation of the events lead up to what was being reported leading up to the breakdown of talks.

 

[notDatsyuk]

If there were an investigation, it most certainly would have been reported.

We do know what happened. (well if you believe Shanahan's interpretations of the events) Shanny very thoroughly detailed all the main events leading up to Dubas' dismissal or contract retraction. His interpretation of the events lead up to what was being reported leading up to the breakdown of talks.

Did Shanahan say that Pittsburgh illegally tampered?

 

[Drytoast]

Did Shanahan say that Pittsburgh illegally tampered?

No he did not. But everything he detailed points towards an invisible motivation that suddenly had Dubas reject a contract which was tailored around all of Dubas's asking points and then drastically demand so much more that it would obviously be rejected.

Again...IF I agree with what Shanahan detailed. Which I do.

 

[notDatsyuk]

No he did not. But everything he detailed points towards an invisible motivation that suddenly had Dubas reject a contract which was tailored around all of Dubas's asking points and then drastically demand so much more that it would obviously be rejected.

Again...IF I agree with what Shanahan detailed. Which I do.

So you know what happened based on what Shanahan said, although he didn't say what you say you know is true, but you know it because he didn't say it?

If you think he knew that there was something going on and it would have been to the Leafs' advantage to report it, why do you think he didn't?

 

[Drytoast]

So you know what happened based on what Shanahan said, although he didn't say what you say you know is true, but you know it because he didn't say it?

If you think he knew that there was something going on and it would have been to the Leafs' advantage to report it, why do you think he didn't?

Based on what Shanahan had said, Dubas and his agent laid out their demands before the playoffs. Those demands were met. And everything was looking towards an easy announcement of a Dubas extension until Dubas changed his demands last minute to something so beyond the contract that there was no way it would be agreed on.

That doesn't just happen without some kind of outside influence. And I would investigate that outside influence and I'm suspicious about Pittsburgh seeing as that's where he landed and they were looking for a GM/President to fill that roll when Dubas was negotiating that contract.

So ya. It's suspect. Which is why I would want it to be investigated.

 

[NinjaKick]

the trade deadline is around the corner and our depth obviously needs a boost. going to be interesting.

 

[Confucius]

I will choose to believe the recent scoring drought from all depth players will turn into a scoring surge come playpff time.

BOOK IT

Well there are some who advocate for taking it easy during the regular season only to bring it during the playoffs. I hope that isn’t the plan but who knows.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Based on what Shanahan had said, Dubas and his agent laid out their demands before the playoffs. Those demands were met. And everything was looking towards an easy announcement of a Dubas extension until Dubas changed his demands last minute to something so beyond the contract that there was no way it would be agreed on.

That doesn't just happen without some kind of outside influence. And I would investigate that outside influence and I'm suspicious about Pittsburgh seeing as that's where he landed and they were looking for a GM/President to fill that roll when Dubas was negotiating that contract.

So ya. It's suspect. Which is why I would want it to be investigated.

So you're speculating on what you think happened, based on limited information?

And you didn't answer my question:

If you think Shanahan knew that there was something going on and it would have been to the Leafs' advantage to report it, why do you think he didn't?

 

[Arzak]

Yeah we would have definitely drafted the best defensive forward ever if only we had a different GM

who knew I'd use it so soon?

Anyway, you can pick Marchand in the second round, you can pick Krejci who will lead your team in scoring when you win the Cup etc.

Here's the promised picture of what happened when you read my post. Courtesy of HFboards.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

who knew I'd use it so soon?

Anyway, you can pick Marchand in the second round, you can pick Krejci who will lead your team in scoring when you win the Cup etc.

Here's the promised picture of what happened when you read my post. Courtesy of HFboards.

View attachment 810381

You said the Leafs won't be able to draft our own Bergeron for years thanks to Dubas, seems pretty reasonable to interpret that as you blaming him

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I was pointing it out around the 15 - 20 game mark as a concern (though willing to give it some time as game 20 onward is where the sample sizes start meaning something) but we are now over half way and are MORE dependent on the Big 4 to score than ever. 52.5% last year versus 59.5% this year.

 

[thewave]

the trade deadline is around the corner and our depth obviously needs a boost. going to be interesting.

What's interesting about it? We are fighting for a playoff spot. Not really a contender and have to mortgage the future for a shot at winning the first round?

 

[keonsbitterness]

What's interesting about it? We are fighting for a playoff spot. Not really a contender and have to mortgage the future for a shot at winning the first round?

What else do teams in a playoff spot at the deadline do other than try to buy?

 

[Stephen]

The problem is the Dubas situation left Shanahan in a pickle of having to hire an experienced GM in a short amount of time to negotiate the Matthews contract.

I'm feeling fairly certain that Dubas was approached illegally by Pittsburgh and offered a deal that caused Dubas to suddenly demand for more. (if we go with Shanahan's telling of the story, which I do). So the Leafs should be investigating the Penguins for that bullshit.

I'm not overly fond of Dubas, just pointing out that he helped put us in this situation of having to hire a Treliving.

We are f***ed. Both short term and long term. Treliving isn't the guy. And Keefe isn't the coach. Tavares certainly isn't the captain. And as for Shanahan? I liked what he had done when he first got here. But he's part of the problem with his need to meddle in the affairs of the GM.

Yeah, Real Kyper actually reported the Fenway Group maybe having interest in Dubas back in January or something, so that tampering must have been out there already. I remember laying out the reasons why there's no way Dubas would rationally go there to be a GM with their terrible roster situation, with Toronto being a better situation, but maybe Ottawa being the more attractive ready made destination if he had to go anyway.

Not that I care about losing Dubas too much, but it would be nice to throw some tampering allegations out there and get some compensation.

Treliving kind of reminds me of a Dave Nonis... Just a seasoned, unremarkable GM, more importantly a company guy. That doesn't mean he's going to have the terrible track record of a Nonis, since he's not starting at zero with no foundation. But he seems like a business as usual, steady as she goes, cut around the edges kind of guy.

 

[thewave]

What else do teams in a playoff spot at the deadline do other than try to buy?

This team should take a step back and try to sell. We locked Nylander and Matthews. It's time to fix that D. Unfortunately the G situation is just going to remain dicey for the whole window.

 

[Arzak]

You said the Leafs won't be able to draft our own Bergeron for years thanks to Dubas, seems pretty reasonable to interpret that as you blaming him

Well, Yes I'm, we don't have 2nd round pick and won't for a while. Why pretend you don't understand what I said?

I said we won't pick our Bergeron, it means any quality player in the second round .

The point was you have 0 % chance of picking Bergeron if you trade all your pick away -like Dubas.

Why make it a strawman ? Going "Oh so we would pick the best defensive forward in the game if it wasn't for Dubas?" I never said that. The point wasn't Bergeron but a bergeron. Got it now? Don't waste pick for nothing. There are Bergerons of the world in the 2nd round.




Dubas faithfuls are funny .


edit: Unclear why you call it blaming Dubas, he traded all the second-round picks, stating we won't be picking in the second round is a fact, it should offend no one, including Dubas faithful.

 

[Drytoast]

So you're speculating on what you think happened, based on limited information?

And you didn't answer my question:

If you think Shanahan knew that there was something going on and it would have been to the Leafs' advantage to report it, why do you think he didn't?

I don't know maybe there's some gentlemen's agreement not to investigate that s*** to just let it go behind the scenes who knows? Or maybe Shanahan's just that f****** stupid that's a very real possibility you know?

All we know is that dubus was about to get everything he asked for, and suddenly last minute he changed his mind and extended his demands to something unrealistic and unsignable.

And if I were Shanahan I would try to figure out what the hell caused him to change his mind.

Yeah, Real Kyper actually reported the Fenway Group maybe having interest in Dubas back in January or something, so that tampering must have been out there already. I remember laying out the reasons why there's no way Dubas would rationally go there to be a GM with their terrible roster situation, with Toronto being a better situation, but maybe Ottawa being the more attractive ready made destination if he had to go anyway.

Not that I care about losing Dubas too much, but it would be nice to throw some tampering allegations out there and get some compensation.

Treliving kind of reminds me of a Dave Nonis... Just a seasoned, unremarkable GM, more importantly a company guy. That doesn't mean he's going to have the terrible track record of a Nonis, since he's not starting at zero with no foundation. But he seems like a business as usual, steady as she goes, cut around the edges kind of guy.

That's exactly what I'm saying the way it played out is incredibly suspicious. Dubas was about to get everything he asked for through his agent and then suddenly changed his mind last minute to something that he knew Shanahan was going to reject.


I don't think many contract negotiations go down that way I could be wrong but it seems like we were taking advantage of.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The point was you have 0 % chance of picking Bergeron if you trade all your pick away -like Dubas.

Dubas drafted 35 times, out of the default 35 times. He didn't trade all the picks away, and had 35 chances to draft a Bergeron.
And of course, while you don't actually know whether he did or not yet, it's most likely that no GM in the league drafted one of the best defensive forwards ever.
What we did draft was a bunch of quality prospects and players currently contributing in the NHL; improving the scoring depth that this thread is concerned about.

All we know is that dubus was about to get everything he asked for, and suddenly last minute he changed his mind and extended his demands to something unrealistic and unsignable.

Actually, Shanahan was trying to get what he wanted, and then at the proper negotiating time after the season, Dubas tried to get the reasonable things he wanted.
And then Shanahan blew everything up for no reason. There's no evidence of this conspiracy. Just a President making a bad decision.

 

[Maple Leaf]

best fix is to get new pres and gm and coach

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Well, Yes I'm, we don't have 2nd round pick and won't for a while. Why pretend you don't understand what I said?

I said we won't pick our Bergeron, it means any quality player in the second round .

The point was you have 0 % chance of picking Bergeron if you trade all your pick away -like Dubas.

Why make it a strawman ? Going "Oh so we would pick the best defensive forward in the game if it wasn't for Dubas?" I never said that. The point wasn't Bergeron but a bergeron. Got it now? Don't waste pick for nothing. There are Bergerons of the world in the 2nd round.




Dubas faithfuls are funny .


edit: Unclear why you call it blaming Dubas, he traded all the second-round picks, stating we won't be picking in the second round is a fact, it should offend no one, including Dubas faithful.

Your point was nonsensical and not well made unfortunately.

For starters, the value of a 2nd round pick is significantly less than a Patrice Bergeron. That's just the best case scenario and the chances of picking up a prospect who even plays in the NHL one day are fairly low. I doubt you'd hail Dubas as a hero who brought us Henrik Zetterberg if he acquired a 7th round pick.

Secondly, nothing is stopping Treliving from just getting a 2nd round pick from some other team if you're so sure that the next Bergeron is upcoming draft just waiting to get drafted by us

 

[Warden of the North]

How does it compare league wide?