Confirmed with Link: Sandin to Washington for Erik Gustafsson and 1st (BOS)

[Gilmour1996]

They better flip the Pick they got for Sandin into something more tangible for next year. Sandin even pre trade is about the best you can hope for from the 28th pick so why are they just going backwards 5 years.

This shouldn't have been a deadline deal it's a draft day deal.

Good point. Sandin would have been handy to keep around until the draft in case of injuries and poor performance by the other D. I guess they needed the cap space for Murray/Knies and they weren't thinking clearly. Kerfoot or Holl, even if you have to attach a middling prospect, might have been better players to move out at trade deadline to create cap space since they are UFA in the summer.

 

[Stephen]

Look at some of Sandin's flaws. His first 3 strides from a stop are poor. His size is disadvantage in many situations, wall battles, clearing the net front, defending the forecheck etc. A big team playing tough playoff hockey is a recipe for Sandin to get injured or exposed badly on simple cycle not boxing out someone for a rebound etc. I personally do not see much upside in Sandin. I can see him being a 30-40 point guy based on his hockey sense, deception especially.

I could see him being as good as a Tobias Enstrom+ but the key here is he wasn’t a good fit for right now based on the way we want to play, he doesn’t seem to have the patience to be a bottom pairing guy and we got value back in the first round and the freedom to pick another first rounder or make a deal in the offseason, recovering the ROR first.

 

[Stephen]

Good point. Sandin would have been handy to keep around until the draft in case of injuries and poor performance by the other D. I guess they needed the cap space for Murray/Knies and they weren't thinking clearly. Kerfoot or Holl, even if you have to attach a middling prospect, might have been better players to move out at trade deadline to create cap space since they are UFA in the summer.

The hedge might be that if Sandin didn’t make the playoff roster where they didn’t want to use him, his stock would drop like a Dermott over time…

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

The hedge might be that if Sandin didn’t make the playoff roster where they didn’t want to use him, his stock would drop like a Dermott over time…

Teams shouldn't dump quality players to hedge against ruining their development. That's not what proper organizations do. It would have been much more beneficial to trade pending UFA Holl to free room up, who has all the same concerns as Sandin at retrieving pucks against a heavy forecheck, only worse and with none of the upside to go with it

 

[ULF_55]

Teams shouldn't dump quality players to hedge against ruining their development. That's not what proper organizations do. It would have been much more beneficial to trade pending UFA Holl to free room up, who has all the same concerns as Sandin at retrieving pucks against a heavy forecheck, only worse and with none of the upside to go with it

Keefe has different rules for different players. Nylander, Liljegren, Sandin seem to have had shorter leashes.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Keefe has different rules for different players. Nylander, Liljegren, Sandin seem to have had shorter leashes.

Good point, I think EUR On to something

 

[ShaneFalco]

Keefe has different rules for different players. Nylander, Liljegren, Sandin seem to have had shorter leashes.

So true
Keefe basically apologized to AM and MM after calling them out. Or Dubas made him

 

[weems]

Good point, I think EUR On to something

So if Keefe is a terrible coach.

Does this mean Dubas made two bad decisions?

The first being actually hiring the guy who you now think is dumb and two, actually holding onto the coach this past offseason when it was a good time to make a change with some other decent coach's available.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

So if Keefe is a terrible coach.

Does this mean Dubas made two bad decisions?

The first being actually hiring the guy who you now think is dumb and two, actually holding onto the coach this past offseason when it was a good time to make a change with some other decent coach's available.

I don't really blame Dubas too much for hiring Keefe. Babcock needed to go and Keefe did a pretty good job to start. But keeping him this offseason and saying things like Keefe will be the next Trotz was ridiculous. I think Keefe being in charge as they blew a 3-1 lead to Montreal was unforgiveable, and losing again the next year just sealed it for me that he's not the guy to get them over the hump. But also in the sake of fairness, I think every coach has their biases and the vast majority of them don't like using young players in key roles. It isn't unique to Keefe

 

[weems]

I don't really blame Dubas too much for hiring Keefe. Babcock needed to go and Keefe did a pretty good job to start. But keeping him this offseason and saying things like Keefe will be the next Trotz was ridiculous. I think Keefe being in charge as they blew a 3-1 lead to Montreal was unforgiveable, and losing again the next year just sealed it for me that he's not the guy to get them over the hump. But also in the sake of fairness, I think every coach has their biases and the vast majority of them don't like using young players in key roles. It isn't unique to Keefe

That's a sensible response.

Your posts have been interesting to read lately because you previously seemed like a big Dubas supporter but it seems you're confidence in him has gone down alot this season?

 

[Dayjobdave]

I like Sandin but you could see it wasn't going to end well for him here if the Dubas/Keefe regime is in place, so assuming they are here, it was time for the team to get assets for him.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Teams shouldn't dump quality players to hedge against ruining their development. That's not what proper organizations do. It would have been much more beneficial to trade pending UFA Holl to free room up, who has all the same concerns as Sandin at retrieving pucks against a heavy forecheck, only worse and with none of the upside to go with it

I don't agree with this at all. Holl is an experienced Dman who's been a lot better for us than people think. Dumping him and going with Sandin instead in the playoffs seems awfully risky to me.

 

[Stephen]

Teams shouldn't dump quality players to hedge against ruining their development. That's not what proper organizations do. It would have been much more beneficial to trade pending UFA Holl to free room up, who has all the same concerns as Sandin at retrieving pucks against a heavy forecheck, only worse and with none of the upside to go with it

The issue I have is this:

-I don’t want Sandin on the ice in a playoff matchup where I know forecheckers will rush him on the point to strip him of the puck for an odd man rush. I don’t want teams throwing the puck in his corner and Jeannot burying him into the end boards. I think Keefe and Dubas feel the same way.

-I’m okay with stashing him in the press box, but I don’t get the sense Sandin was okay with it based on his attitude. He’s not a typical good organizational young guy as we’ve seen.

-So do you use him and possibly expose yourself to more risk on the ice which could torpedo the whole season, regime and future of the core, or do you put him in the press box, piss him off and then have the league think he’s less valuable?

Out of all the tough things Dubas has to balance here, we got a 1st round pick back and a guy to fill Sandin’s current role temporarily. With the pick we can trade up. We can trade down. We can build another package at the draft. We are okay.

 

[Stephen]

I don't agree with this at all. Holl is an experienced Dman who's been a lot better for us than people think. Dumping him and going with Sandin instead in the playoffs seems awfully risky to me.

Holl sucks too but his job is different. Between job profile, size and RD vs LD they virtually don’t overlap at all.

 

[Stephen]

That's a sensible response.

Your posts have been interesting to read lately because you previously seemed like a big Dubas supporter but it seems you're confidence in him has gone down alot this season?

I think this is an interesting philosophical issue. A lot of Dubas fans see the game in a similar way as Dubas as when he was hired but he’s also been learning on the job and changing the recipe.

So if ultimately he learns to win the conventional way vs sticking to Day One ideas, and let’s say turns into a more conventional Doug Armstrong, what will be the response if you’re a Dubas fan? Do you value the philosophy or the results.

 

[ULF_55]

I like Sandin but you could see it wasn't going to end well for him here if the Dubas/Keefe regime is in place, so assuming they are here, it was time for the team to get assets for him.

Put it this way, Sandin wouldn't have had to put up with Dubas-Keefe beyond this year one way or another.

They could have traded him next year ... if they have anything to do with the Leafs next year.

They traded him for the lowest 1st. round pick they could get, and got back a player who so far has looked like he should be in the minors.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I don't agree with this at all. Holl is an experienced Dman who's been a lot better for us than people think. Dumping him and going with Sandin instead in the playoffs seems awfully risky to me.

I agree Holl is better than people think, but making quick decisions to move the puck while under a heavy forecheck is legitimately a weakness for him. If you're okay with that from Holl, I don't see why you can't accept that from Sandin for a number of reasons

The issue I have is this:

-I don’t want Sandin on the ice in a playoff matchup where I know forecheckers will rush him on the point to strip him of the puck for an odd man rush. I don’t want teams throwing the puck in his corner and Jeannot burying him into the end boards. I think Keefe and Dubas feel the same way.

-I’m okay with stashing him in the press box, but I don’t get the sense Sandin was okay with it based on his attitude. He’s not a typical good organizational young guy as we’ve seen.

-So do you use him and possibly expose yourself to more risk on the ice which could torpedo the whole season, regime and future of the core, or do you put him in the press box, piss him off and then have the league think he’s less valuable?

Out of all the tough things Dubas has to balance here, we got a 1st round pick back and a guy to fill Sandin’s current role temporarily. With the pick we can trade up. We can trade down. We can build another package at the draft. We are okay.

I do understand why you have those concerns, but frankly every player on the Leafs defense have weaknesses that a good team can exploit and few have the same degree of upside. Many of them are more glaring than Sandin's weaknesses. If your objective is to take away the weakest link on defense, that wasn't Sandin. And even if you're 100% right about moving on from him, that still doesn't justify keeping the first round pick instead of trying to improve the offensive depth

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I think this is an interesting philosophical issue. A lot of Dubas fans see the game in a similar way as Dubas as when he was hired but he’s also been learning on the job and changing the recipe.

So if ultimately he learns to win the conventional way vs sticking to Day One ideas, and let’s say turns into a more conventional Doug Armstrong, what will be the response if you’re a Dubas fan? Do you value the philosophy or the results.

What you call learning to win, I call giving in to outside pressure. It's not like this approach of sacrificing offensive talent for grit/defensive responsibility has helped us win anything. I don't really need to use Dubas as a figure who proves that analytics have their place in hockey, as Eric Tulsky does that in Carolina but is much better at it. I just want Dubas to build the best team possible and have success here, but that simply isn't the case. This trade is the perfect example of one that flies in the face of analytics AND conventional wisdom for me. Some of the best things about Sandin is his commitment to be physical and play with emotion, and he seemed to be beloved by the team

 

[ULF_55]

Perhaps it was a request by Sandin to move him.
Some players would beg to stay, others might have had enough.

 

[Stephen]

I agree Holl is better than people think, but making quick decisions to move the puck while under a heavy forecheck is legitimately a weakness for him. If you're okay with that from Holl, I don't see why you can't accept that from Sandin for a number of reasons


I do understand why you have those concerns, but frankly every player on the Leafs defense have weaknesses that a good team can exploit and few have the same degree of upside. Many of them are more glaring than Sandin's weaknesses. If your objective is to take away the weakest link on defense, that wasn't Sandin. And even if you're 100% right about moving on from him, that still doesn't justify keeping the first round pick instead of trying to improve the offensive depth

I think the Leaf blueline is poorly designed and still is. The puzzle pieces don’t fit well, the body types are wrong, our number one is not ideal. And Sandin was part of the mismatch.

Sandin is now on a bottom 1/3 team not going to make the playoffs that has Carlson out and just moved Orlov and Gustafsson. Good that he’s scoring some points and having success but for him to get 5 points in 2 games in Toronto and play big minutes, you’d have to ship out 3 guys to make it happen.

 

[Stephen]

What you call learning to win, I call giving in to outside pressure. It's not like this approach of sacrificing offensive talent for grit/defensive responsibility has helped us win anything. I don't really need to use Dubas as a figure who proves that analytics have their place in hockey, as Eric Tulsky does that in Carolina but is much better at it. I just want Dubas to build the best team possible and have success here, but that simply isn't the case. This trade is the perfect example of one that flies in the face of analytics AND conventional wisdom for me. Some of the best things about Sandin is his commitment to be physical and play with emotion, and he seemed to be beloved by the team

Comparing Toronto to Carolina and citing skill is extremely superficial.

Their team is build on blueline strength. Leafs like they’re Justin Holl length defender and talked up Muzzin for days but they have the real deal in Slavin, Pesce as a start, and have rotated in guys like Brett Burns and Dougie Hamilton. Add all world skating Brady Skeji. None of them are smaller than Jake Muzzin. Sprinkle in your odd puck mover from year to year like Tony D, Ghost, Faulk and you have a full force on D.

Their forward group as a whole is probably lower end than Toronto but their salaries aren’t as too heavy so they’re much deeper. I’m not going to rehash the Leafs salary structure but Carolina doesn’t have a Big 4.

You say Dubas is succumbing to pressure vs learning. Well, where did his vision even come from? Emulating Pittsburgh building a cheap D and winning with Crosby and Malkin? Overskilling teams, which Tampa beat Toronto to the finish line in 2020 while having better G, D and conventional bottom 6?

If you can’t reinvent the wheel, just build a standard one well.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Comparing Toronto to Carolina and citing skill is extremely superficial.

Their team is build on blueline strength. Leafs like they’re Justin Holl length defender and talked up Muzzin for days but they have the real deal in Slavin, Pesce as a start, and have rotated in guys like Brett Burns and Dougie Hamilton. Add all world skating Brady Skeji. None of them are smaller than Jake Muzzin. Sprinkle in your odd puck mover from year to year like Tony D, Ghost, Faulk and you have a full force on D.

Their forward group as a whole is probably lower end than Toronto but their salaries aren’t as too heavy so they’re much deeper. I’m not going to rehash the Leafs salary structure but Carolina doesn’t have a Big 4.

You say Dubas is succumbing to pressure vs learning. Well, where did his vision even come from? Emulating Pittsburgh building a cheap D and winning with Crosby and Malkin? Overskilling teams, which Tampa beat Toronto to the finish line in 2020 while having better G, D and conventional bottom 6?

If you can’t reinvent the wheel, just build a standard one well.

I'm not exactly comparing Toronto to Carolina. I'm comparing Dubas to Eric Tulsky and wishing we had the latter. Dubas talks a big game about analytics and using all available information to make decisions, but I don't see much evidence that he actually lives up to that.

I can't answer your question, I have no idea where Dubas gets his vision for a team. It seems like he just wants to bet on his core players who never won anything and pray it works out, but I can't think of many examples that support that approach.

Not to turn this one trade into a discussion about Dubas, but I think it does show his shortcomings. This wasn't a good trade and doesn't help the team in the short or long term, and the justification for it is very flimsy. Why did he suddenly pivot away from an "all in" trade deadline to try to recoup a late first round pick and keep it?

 

[thusk]

You draft Sandin with a 1st round pick.

You invest & develop him for 4 years until now he is a successful NHLer playing regularly.

Then you trade Sandin for a late 1st round pick and start the process all over again.

Draft again and rinse and repeat, with no guarantee that player will be even equal to him as prospects are suspects.

PS. Giordano the player in front of him on the depth chart today will be turning 40, while Rasmus is 22.

Rielly was in front of sandin
Mccabe was in front of sandin
Gio was in front of sandin

The 2 last spot remaining for the remaining season and at least next season are as RD

Leafs could have wait until this season but at the end im not sure if the return would be really different...

I would be happy if he can shine in Washington but it would never be the case in Toronto because morgan rielly already play this role vs washington who dont have anybody like him... thats the difference for sandin

Its not because sandin is not a good player, he was not what leafs needed...
In reality the trade is mccabe vs sandin and like 2nd pick vs laferty and gustafsson. They traded a D who didn't fit with what they need for a guy who fit perfectly with the group... thats it

 

[robertmac43]

Why did he suddenly pivot away from an "all in" trade deadline to try to recoup a late first round pick and keep it?

The answer is obvious to me. Sandin was going to end up in the press box for the playoffs. May as well sell with his value up and get some assets in now. Having this first gives Dubas some options come the summer, options he wouldn't have had otherwise.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Small offensive minded D man with AHL level speed due to short stride length but great hands .. to get a MID 1st rounder for him is a freakin miracle (we got a much better pick than where we took him) .. plus we got a replacement level player who plays same game for rest of year .. and guy wanted $2M per to stick around as a 3rd pairing guy .. OMG likely da best deal Dubie did at deadline