Sam Rosen was right (Historical impact of Rangers' roster moves)

[haohmaru]

First of all, what is your point? Second of all, you cannot base this on ANYTHING. This is just a straw argument to try to make some sort of point.

My point is that Callahan is an asset, as are draft picks, as is St. Louis. I can base Callahan's trade value based on other trades. Maybe, *MAYBE*, he would've brought back a 2nd and a 5th.

St. Louis is a depreciating asset. It is unreasonable to expect that IF he resigns with the Rangers that he would continue to be a top scorer when past 40. And picks are picks. Assets. Something Sather has shown he can do nothing with but squander.

Equally, you can't say "St. Louis is a depreciating asset" based on ANYTHING either. He's averaging a point a game and has for years. How do you know he won't next year and the year after that? You don't. Of course St. Louis is an "asset" to the team. Just like picks are, but in a different way.

Getting one of the top 10 forwards in the game isn't squandering. It's making your team better. There's nothing indicating St. Louis is slowing down and an argument really can't be made that Callahan is a better forward. He isn't. It's not close.

 

[haohmaru]

The only way this is a good trade is if the Rangers win the Cup. Short of that, the wasting of assets does not make for a good deal organizationally. MSG is sold out whether or not this deal is made.

Again, St. Louis is an asset that is likely to re-sign here. This isn't a rental for the short term. He's signed for another year at a better rate than Callahan would've commanded and he's the better player. If this was just for this year and there was no hope in signing him then I'd agree with you. But that's not what this is.

 

[aufheben]

Again, St. Louis is an asset that is likely to re-sign here. This isn't a rental for the short term. He's signed for another year at a better rate than Callahan would've commanded and he's the better player. If this was just for this year and there was no hope in signing him then I'd agree with you. But that's not what this is.

So, we could have gotten him for free? It IS a rental for a short-term.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Again, St. Louis is an asset that is likely to re-sign here. This isn't a rental for the short term. He's signed for another year at a better rate than Callahan would've commanded and he's the better player. If this was just for this year and there was no hope in signing him then I'd agree with you. But that's not what this is.

He'll be 40 years old.

I know. I know. He'll be great forever.

 

[haohmaru]

It's already been stated that there were much better offers on the table for Vanek, but Snow refused to retain salary and took the lesser deal. Gaborik is a better rental player? That's rich.

So it's just speculation then. I thought something was out there to prove that.

Gaborik is the better rental. No question about it.

Snow said the club feels “very fortunate” to have done the deal he did, which he insisted was the most favorable that came across his table.

“This was the best offer we received,” he said.

Speculation on your part, too, I guess.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Gaborik is the better rental. No question about it.

Snow said the club feels “very fortunate†to have done the deal he did, which he insisted was the most favorable that came across his table.

“This was the best offer we received,†he said.

Speculation on your part, too, I guess.

Gaborik? Are we stuck in a time warp.

 

[haohmaru]

He'll be 40 years old.

I know. I know. He'll be great forever.

How's Jagr doing at 42? Selanne? St. Louis compares favorably to both.

 

[haohmaru]

Gaborik? Are we stuck in a time warp.

He brought back more than Vanek did.

 

[haohmaru]

So, we could have gotten him for free? It IS a rental for a short-term.

In a year and a half? It's not a short term pending UFA rental like Vanek, Moulson, etc... This was the only place he wanted to go. It's likely he's here at least 3 1/2 years. That's not short term.

 

[aufheben]

In a year and a half? It's not a short term pending UFA rental like Vanek, Moulson, etc... This was the only place he wanted to go. It's likely he's here at least 3 1/2 years. That's not short term.

We could have gotten him for free. You're the one saying he has plenty of time left, why the rush to give up assets for him then?

We traded for 18 months of St. Louis. We were the only team he wanted to go to, safe to say he would have signed with us as UFA regardless of whether or not we traded for him.

 

[haohmaru]

We could have gotten him for free. You're the one saying he has plenty of time left, why the rush to give up assets for him then?

Right. Makes plenty of sense that if you could have a guy like, let's say Crosby, for 3 1/2 years you'd rather have him for 2 years for the sake of a draft pick or two.

Gotchya. Guess we look at that differently.

 

[aufheben]

Makes tons of sense to give up the best trade bait we've had for years for 18 months of a player we could have gotten for free.

We didn't trade for 3-4 years of St. Louis. We traded for 1-1/2 years.

Yzerman did the smart thing and traded a player who would have walked for free for assets, even though Tampa is more or less on the Rangers level.

 

[Ryan McDonut]

i don't like how people defend the trade by saying "oh well sather doesn't draft good players in the first round anyways." ok lets just get rid of all our draft picks then. incredibly shortsighted move by sather once again.

 

[Ryan McDonut]

Right. Makes plenty of sense that if you could have a guy like, let's say Crosby, for 3 1/2 years you'd rather have him for 2 years for the sake of a draft pick or two.

Gotchya. Guess we look at that differently.

st louis could start declining at any point. hes 38 years old. knowing the rangers history of aging stars that will happen sooner rather than later

 

[haohmaru]

Makes tons of sense to give up the best trade bait we've had for years for 18 months of a player we could have gotten for free.

We didn't trade for 3-4 years of St. Louis. We traded for 1-1/2 years.

Yzerman did the smart thing and traded a player who would have walked for free for assets, even though Tampa is more or less on the Rangers level.

The best trade bait? What do you think we could've gotten best case scenario? You see what other pending UFA's got Goc, Vanek, Gaborik, etc...

We get St. Louis for two playoff runs (hopefully). I'll take that.

What's your measure of success to make the St. Louis trade worth it? Finals? Cup? Do you think 3 or 4 draft picks (and 2014 is a REALLY weak draft year) would lead to better success?

The 2015 1st bothers me. I've said that all along. The Rangers typically draft 15-25 in the first round. That's not a Stamkos or Crosby. That's about a 40% chance that that draft pick plays an NHL game within two years.

 

[haohmaru]

i don't like how people defend the trade by saying "oh well sather doesn't draft good players in the first round anyways." ok lets just get rid of all our draft picks then. incredibly shortsighted move by sather once again.

I like how people place high value on picks late in the 1st round that might or might not ever be an NHL player over a proven top 10 forward in the game with no signs of slowing down.

 

[aufheben]

The best trade bait? What do you think we could've gotten best case scenario? You see what other pending UFA's got Goc, Vanek, Gaborik, etc...

We get St. Louis for two playoff runs (hopefully). I'll take that.

What's your measure of success to make the St. Louis trade worth it? Finals? Cup? Do you think 3 or 4 draft picks (and 2014 is a REALLY weak draft year) would lead to better success?

The 2015 1st bothers me. I've said that all along. The Rangers typically draft 15-25 in the first round. That's not a Stamkos or Crosby. That's about a 40% chance that that draft pick plays an NHL game within two years.

Almost all of our important players were 1st/2nd round draft picks. You need consistent young talent to compete in the salary capped NHL, i.e. hungry players on ECLs.

 

[aufheben]

I like how people place high value on picks late in the 1st round that might or might not ever be an NHL player over a proven top 10 forward in the game with no signs of slowing down.

It doesn't matter whether he is slowing down or not, his contract is up NEXT YEAR. That's what we traded for.

 

[haveandare]

They have no interest in building the best team that they can. Jackass has only one interest. The here and NOW.

Is that supposed to be a ringing endorsement?

What is this even supposed to mean? He has no interest in building the best team - he's just interested in now. One of those things is a goal and one of them is a time. What is he interested in now? I'd argue winning, and like I said, he's just misguided.

Is it supposed to be a ringing endorsement? I don't know how it could be read as an endorsement at all. This might fry some peoples brains here, but you can think the guy is trying and just not doing well. You can dislike his work without pretending you know a thing about who he is as a person or what flaws of his lead to the results we see.

This team has a great goalie, a top-notch D-core, and some good forwards, both young and old. The amount of anger that comes out about the state of this team is incredible. The list of things they need is two pieces long: 1C and a great PMD. Guess what? Most teams need those things. There aren't 30 of either.

Sather has been real, real bad when you look at this entire career. These last few years haven't been bad at all. The team thats been assembled by him or whoever else is a good one. 29 other franchises are trying to win too. Winning isn't easy.

 

[haohmaru]

It doesn't matter whether he is slowing down or not, his contract is up NEXT YEAR. That's what we traded for.

And? 1/4 reg. season + playoffs, whole regular season + playoffs and he's likely to re-sign here. I don't have a problem with that.

 

[haohmaru]

Almost all of our important players were 1st/2nd round draft picks. You need consistent young talent to compete in the salary capped NHL, i.e. hungry players on ECLs.

The Rangers have been pretty successful drafting (though, many seem to refute that). Most of their 1st round picks do make the NHL - there are the Sanguinetti's of the world out there, but, by and large the Rangers 1st rounders have all made the NHL in recent years.

I get the balance of picks vs. veterans. I do. But, if you can get a top 10 player, you do it.

 

[aufheben]

And? 1/4 reg. season + playoffs, whole regular season + playoffs and he's likely to re-sign here. I don't have a problem with that.

I don't necessarily have a problem with it either, but I have a people including anything after next year as part of the trade, (not you). It's not, nor will it ever be.

 

[haohmaru]

I don't necessarily have a problem with it either, but I have a people including anything after next year as part of the trade, (not you). It's not, nor will it ever be.

Well, the other side to this is that the NYR have a nightmare summer coming up with UFA's and RFA's. I don't think we got back as much as we could've for MDZ (in a year other than this) but we got back a dependable guy with a decent contract. Callahan at 6 x 6 would've been an anchor on the cap and we got back a better forward at a lower price and another UFA contract gone.

We've got Brassard (RFA) Boyle (UFA) Pouliot (UFA) Zooks (RFA) Moore (UFA) Carcillo (UFA) Kreider (RFA) Stralman (UFA) Diaz (UFA) Falk (RFA) J. Moore (RFA)

That's still a ****ing nightmare.

 

[Thirty One]

Well, the other side to this is that the NYR have a nightmare summer coming up with UFA's and RFA's. I don't think we got back as much as we could've for MDZ (in a year other than this) but we got back a dependable guy with a decent contract. Callahan at 6 x 6 would've been an anchor on the cap and we got back a better forward at a lower price and another UFA contract gone.

We've got Brassard (RFA) Boyle (UFA) Pouliot (UFA) Zooks (RFA) Moore (UFA) Carcillo (UFA) Kreider (RFA) Stralman (UFA) Diaz (UFA) Falk (RFA) J. Moore (RFA)

That's still a ****ing nightmare.

Is it? It seems like a pretty typical offseason to me.

 

[Trxjw]

Gaborik is the better rental. No question about it.

Snow said the club feels “very fortunate†to have done the deal he did, which he insisted was the most favorable that came across his table.

“This was the best offer we received,†he said.

Speculation on your part, too, I guess.

You obviously haven't watched him very much this year. He's a shell of what he used to be.

Actually it was McKenzie who stated the Isles had better offers from Minnesota and the Leafs, but he refused to retain salary in the deal. Sorry to burst your bubble.