Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Yeah, I got nuthin' ....

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Kronwall's knee could be done, Witkowski was signed to play as a forward.

DeKeyser - Daley
Ericsson - Green
Ouellet - Jensen <-- Pouliot
Sproul

Pouliot challenges Jensen and Ouellet for a spot.

That's a fair ranking. But I see a ton of Wings games and I feel like Jensen is going to be a fairly decent player (if they don't wreck him). I'd swap DP for Jensen right now, but unsure if Det would

 

[Empoleon8771]

It seems like the narrative has changed from Bones not being good enough or worth extending to calling his production great. If it was great, why wasn't he worth extending?

4MM for a 40ish point center is fine. Bozak makes 5MM. The term is a fair concern, but Bones doesn't have a NTC so you could move him later if needed.

Those aren't related things. No one has ever said Bonino's overall production wasn't great for a 3C. People had issues with his inconsistency and people didn't think he was worth $4.1 million to the Penguins, since the Penguins will have such good wing depth that they can afford to have a cheaper 3C. He can have overall great 3C production while being annoyingly inconsistent and not being worth the contract he got.

Bonino is really only overpaid by about $600k per year and has a year too long on his deal. He's not overpaid by that much, but it's enough that the Penguins shouldn't have given him that contract.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It seems like the narrative has changed from Bones not being good enough or worth extending to calling his production great. If it was great, why wasn't he worth extending?

4MM for a 40ish point center is fine. Bozak makes 5MM. The term is a fair concern, but Bones doesn't have a NTC so you could move him later if needed.

It's always been the combination for me. I don't see Bones as worth what he costs. He's good enough to be 3C and he's not more expensive than we could make work at 3C, but if we're going to spend too much I'd rather get a legit 2C like Bozak. Though in general I prefer the cheaper option over both.

 

[Pens x]

It seems like the narrative has changed from Bones not being good enough or worth extending to calling his production great. If it was great, why wasn't he worth extending?

4MM for a 40ish point center is fine. Bozak makes 5MM. The term is a fair concern, but Bones doesn't have a NTC so you could move him later if needed.

I was just thinking the same thing. People haven't been bashing him as of late saying we can get a better and more cost effective third line center. No more hatred or criticism of his inconsistent production.

Now the narrative has changes to we were lucky to have such a good third line center, we can't expect the Penguins to replicate his production on the third line.

So strange...

 

[Ogrezilla]

I was just thinking the same thing. People haven't been bashing him as of late saying we can get a better and more cost effective third line center. No more hatred or criticism of his inconsistent production.

Now the narrative has changes to we were lucky to have such a good third line center, we can't expect the Penguins to replicate his production on the third line.

So strange...

when you look at his totals, his production is fine. But he definitely went through stretches of playing like a 4C production-wise. They were then countered by stretches of playing like a 2C. That's still a criticism, but it doesn't really reflect in his totals. And the totals are what we're discussing right now. 37 points is good 3C production. The 25 point pace he put up in the playoffs, not so much. Obviously the 60 point pace the playoffs before are ridiculously good. But for 4M, I don't want a guy who regularly dips to that 25 point pace.

 

[Gurglesons]

I was just thinking the same thing. People haven't been bashing him as of late saying we can get a better and more cost effective third line center. No more hatred or criticism of his inconsistent production.

Now the narrative has changes to we were lucky to have such a good third line center, we can't expect the Penguins to replicate his production on the third line.

So strange...

Almost like people are grasping our "summer of wanting to jump off a cliff" was more that we were going to end up giving assets for a mediocre 3C which is all you, Shady and I have been saying.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Trading Pouliot for any NHL caliber player is a steal.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Almost like people are grasping our "summer of wanting to jump off a cliff" was more that we were going to end up giving assets for a mediocre 3C which is all you, Shady and I have been saying.

plenty of us have agreed that we'd likely be doing that the whole time. We just also think it's the right way to go.

 

[Gurglesons]

plenty of us have agreed that we'd likely be doing that the whole time. We just also think it's the right way to go.

Guess we will figure that out when we get our 3C that JR has "picked out and can trade for right now".

 

[Ogrezilla]

Guess we will figure that out when we get our 3C that JR has "picked out and can trade for right now".

it will take quite a while longer than that. And it's something we will never really know who was right because we have no idea what would have happened in any scenario but the one that actually happens.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Speaking of the Sheahan situation, it just seems a little weird at this point. It just seems a little weird because for how strongly he's been talking, you would imagine the deal would have been done by now. It is dependent on AA re-signing, so that's probably what's holding it up, but I expected it to be done by now with the way he was talking last week. I get not wanting to not have either Sheahan or Athanasiou, but you would imagine that if they thought they were close to signing him, they would have signed off on the trade by now.

I also think it's a kinda crappy move by both organizations to hold their players in limbo, but I imagine that actually happens relatively often.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Speaking of the Sheahan situation, it just seems a little weird at this point. It just seems a little weird because for how strongly he's been talking, you would imagine the deal would have been done by now. It is dependent on AA re-signing, so that's probably what's holding it up, but I expected it to be done by now with the way he was talking last week. I get not wanting to not have either Sheahan or Athanasiou, but you would imagine that if they thought they were close to signing him, they would have signed off on the trade by now.

I also think it's a kinda crappy move by both organizations to hold their players in limbo, but I imagine that actually happens relatively often.

Really? It makes perfect sense to wait until they are 100% sure they have AA re-signed before making the trade. They have pretty much nothing at all to gain by making the move before then.

 

[Gurglesons]

Speaking of the Sheahan situation, it just seems a little weird at this point. It just seems a little weird because for how strongly he's been talking, you would imagine the deal would have been done by now. It is dependent on AA re-signing, so that's probably what's holding it up, but I expected it to be done by now with the way he was talking last week. I get not wanting to not have either Sheahan or Athanasiou, but you would imagine that if they thought they were close to signing him, they would have signed off on the trade by now.

I also think it's a kinda crappy move by both organizations to hold their players in limbo, but I imagine that actually happens relatively often.

I think the main part of it is Mackey is a hack.

 

[steelcityassault]

Trading Pouliot for any NHL caliber player is a steal.

Pouliot for Anthony Duclair.. bust for bust

 

[Empoleon8771]

Really? It makes perfect sense to wait until they are 100% sure they have AA re-signed before making the trade. They have pretty much nothing at all to gain by making the move before then.

I get that, but I still feel like the trade would be done by now if it was this close. I really can't see trades being held aside for super long when they wait for 1 team to figure out their ****. I can understand not wanting to have neither AA or Sheahan, but you would think they'd make the trade if they thought they were close to re-signing AA.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I get that, but I still feel like the trade would be done by now if it was this close. I really can't see trades being held aside for super long when they wait for 1 team to figure out their ****. I can understand not wanting to have neither AA or Sheahan, but you would think they'd make the trade if they thought they were close to re-signing AA.

why though? Until they've signed him, there's no reason at all to take the risk.

 

[Peat]

Kronwall's knee could be done, Witkowski was signed to play as a forward.

DeKeyser - Daley
Ericsson - Green
Ouellet - Jensen <-- Pouliot
Sproul

Pouliot challenges Jensen and Ouellet for a spot.

If Witkowski is gonna play forward that changes a lot, although its still not like they really need him. Rumours about Sproul on LTIR weren't there?

It seems like the narrative has changed from Bones not being good enough or worth extending to calling his production great. If it was great, why wasn't he worth extending?

4MM for a 40ish point center is fine. Bozak makes 5MM. The term is a fair concern, but Bones doesn't have a NTC so you could move him later if needed.

*shrugs* I'd have been fine with extending him. 4m is a bit pricy for what he did for us but okay.

But there we go, Rutherford thought otherwise and there's plenty of potential reasons imo.

Almost like people are grasping our "summer of wanting to jump off a cliff" was more that we were going to end up giving assets for a mediocre 3C which is all you, Shady and I have been saying.

Most of us ae okay with giving up assets for a mediocre 3C if its not an overpayment and the team works well with it.

 

[Shady Machine]

Those aren't related things. No one has ever said Bonino's overall production wasn't great for a 3C. People had issues with his inconsistency and people didn't think he was worth $4.1 million to the Penguins, since the Penguins will have such good wing depth that they can afford to have a cheaper 3C. He can have overall great 3C production while being annoyingly inconsistent and not being worth the contract he got.

Bonino is really only overpaid by about $600k per year and has a year too long on his deal. He's not overpaid by that much, but it's enough that the Penguins shouldn't have given him that contract.

Actually people have complained about his production and not just the inconsistency of it. I don't want to bicker about it though.

I can agree he's "overpaid" but I would have pushed harder to sign him. I could be wrong, but I don't get the impression that JR really tried to re-sign him. As I recall, it was more of "hey go figure out what's out there and if you to circle back with us, go ahead". I would have liked to see JR go in with a 3-4 year 3.5MM per and see what happens. Maybe he did and Bones turned it down, but I haven't seen anything to suggest JR tried all that hard. Personally, I would have signed him to anything in the 3.5-3.8MM range. Anything higher is tough, but I'd still be okay with it.

 

[Shady Machine]

when you look at his totals, his production is fine. But he definitely went through stretches of playing like a 4C production-wise. They were then countered by stretches of playing like a 2C. That's still a criticism, but it doesn't really reflect in his totals. And the totals are what we're discussing right now. 37 points is good 3C production. The 25 point pace he put up in the playoffs, not so much. Obviously the 60 point pace the playoffs before are ridiculously good. But for 4M, I don't want a guy who regularly dips to that 25 point pace.

Without doing an in depth analysis, I bet you could say the same thing about many 3C's. That's what makes them 3C's and not 2 or 1C's in a lot of cases.

 

[Shady Machine]

plenty of us have agreed that we'd likely be doing that the whole time. We just also think it's the right way to go.

The targets have changed and so have the expectations as we are getting closer here. Sheahan was a worst case / settle solution earlier in the off season. Now he seems to be moving up in people's minds. What happened to all the Haula talk? He was the main go to option earlier this summer when we moved on from Bones. Now there seems to be a recognition that a player like that is going to be too expensive (something Pixies and I were saying at the time).

Look, I'm not trying to toot my horn here because I've said some hyperbolic things and probably worried too much about this issue, but I have high expectations for this roster and I also believe I have realistic expectations about the cost of centers. We will see how it plays out, but I find it curious that many of the posters I've been debating all summer in the "calm down JR has plenty of time and options" conversations have gradually moved the goal posts and lowered their expectations while pretending I'm crazy.

 

[Shady Machine]

I get that, but I still feel like the trade would be done by now if it was this close. I really can't see trades being held aside for super long when they wait for 1 team to figure out their ****. I can understand not wanting to have neither AA or Sheahan, but you would think they'd make the trade if they thought they were close to re-signing AA.

Who other than Mackey has been reporting it? I wonder if Mackey is relying too much on 1 source that may or may not be right. He's mostly pushing it in radio or chat avenues and not in his official reporting, so I'm not convinced it's as done of a deal as he makes it seem in his free form communication.

 

[Peat]

Actually people have complained about his production and not just the inconsistency of it. I don't want to bicker about it though.

I can agree he's "overpaid" but I would have pushed harder to sign him. I could be wrong, but I don't get the impression that JR really tried to re-sign him. As I recall, it was more of "hey go figure out what's out there and if you to circle back with us, go ahead". I would have liked to see JR go in with a 3-4 year 3.5MM per and see what happens. Maybe he did and Bones turned it down, but I haven't seen anything to suggest JR tried all that hard. Personally, I would have signed him to anything in the 3.5-3.8MM range. Anything higher is tough, but I'd still be okay with it.

I complained. I still think what he did seems inadequate given how much time he had with Phil Kessel; it certainly falls short of what we know to be his top end level of talent.

I also think his production was good for a 3C though, and that I wouldn't have complained about giving him 4m and not paying out assets for someone else. Although equally if we're paying out for a top of the end centre, I need a guy who can play with our top end wingers, and Bonino has such a mixed record there.

Possibly a rather inconsistent answer, but then its very hard to provide definitives about such an inconsistent player. I might go look up other players in Bonino's production range and see if they were as inconsistent.

As for Rutherford trying to get him - I think Bonino said that Rutherford wouldn't discuss 4 years of term. To what extent it was really the 4th year and to what extent he was just being polite about not really wanting him, I don't know.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The targets have changed and so have the expectations as we are getting closer here. Sheahan was a worst case / settle solution earlier in the off season. Now he seems to be moving up in people's minds. What happened to all the Haula talk? He was the main go to option earlier this summer when we moved on from Bones. Now there seems to be a recognition that a player like that is going to be too expensive (something Pixies and I were saying at the time).

Look, I'm not trying to toot my horn here because I've said some hyperbolic things and probably worried too much about this issue, but I have high expectations for this roster and I also believe I have realistic expectations about the cost of centers. We will see how it plays out, but I find it curious that many of the posters I've been debating all summer in the "calm down JR has plenty of time and options" conversations have gradually moved the goal posts and lowered their expectations while pretending I'm crazy.

I dunno about what everyone is saying. I just know this is pretty much in line with the kind of move I expected this summer. Either we'd go big, or we'd go with a guy with potential who is cheap enough to allow for another 3C move if we think we need it. I'm sure I'm guilty of it too, but a LOT of conversations on this site turn in to binary two sided debates where both sides act like everyone who disagrees with them has one big collective opinion. I still understand your side of all of this.

I don't think you have some crazy ideas about what we should have done. I think we'd be a contender had we gone the way you'd have liked us to go. I just prefer going with someone like Sheahan for now over overpaying a guy like Bones. If Bones doesn't work out, we've got an overpaid guy for four years getting in the way of the moves we should actually be making. If Sheahan doesn't work out, we bump him to 4C or move him and try again.

 

[Shady Machine]

I complained. I still think what he did seems inadequate given how much time he had with Phil Kessel; it certainly falls short of what we know to be his top end level of talent.

I also think his production was good for a 3C though, and that I wouldn't have complained about giving him 4m and not paying out assets for someone else. Although equally if we're paying out for a top of the end centre, I need a guy who can play with our top end wingers, and Bonino has such a mixed record there.

Possibly a rather inconsistent answer, but then its very hard to provide definitives about such an inconsistent player. I might go look up other players in Bonino's production range and see if they were as inconsistent.

As for Rutherford trying to get him - I think Bonino said that Rutherford wouldn't discuss 4 years of term. To what extent it was really the 4th year and to what extent he was just being polite about not really wanting him, I don't know.

Totally reasonable post. I think fair minds can disagree on the Bones issue and at the time, I was okay with JR moving on and honestly I still am to some degree. I just don't agree with moving on if the alternative is Riley Sheahan. I'll let the experiment have some time to run it's course and cheer the hell out of Sheahan and hope I'm wrong. I'll probably still complain though

 

[The GM]

Who other than Mackey has been reporting it? I wonder if Mackey is relying too much on 1 source that may or may not be right. He's mostly pushing it in radio or chat avenues and not in his official reporting, so I'm not convinced it's as done of a deal as he makes it seem in his free form communication.

Does someone have Aaron Ward's phone number? He's the only true insider I'd trust.