Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Well, now what?

[Empoleon8771]

It's not too surprising Sullivan and JR aren't seeing eye to eye with Sprong, they haven't seen eye to eye with Sprong ever since Sullivan became the coach here. You'd think they'd come to some sort of middle ground, but both sides are dug into their positions IMO.

 

[Shockmaster]

It's not too surprising Sullivan and JR aren't seeing eye to eye with Sprong, they haven't seen eye to eye with Sprong ever since Sullivan became the coach here. You'd think they'd come to some sort of middle ground, but both sides are dug into their positions IMO.

It's going to hurt the team if Sullivan keeps rolling only 3 lines because of it.

 

[66-30-33]

If Oil are out by deadline I go after Klefbom and maybe Kassian. Wont need Oleksiak anymore.

Now what it will cost for those 2? no idea.

 

[PensandCaps]

If Oil are out by deadline I go after Klefbom and maybe Kassian. Wont need Oleksiak anymore.

Now what it will cost for those 2? no idea.

Kassian is nothing. Don't want him.


Klefbom is a top 3 Dman. He is their #1. He is untouchable.

 

[WayneSid9987]

JJ has been on the ice for 6GF and 10GA at ES. GF he is 3rd on Pens dmen (2 behind Letang and Dumo) but GA he's the worst by 3. That's brutal.

Pretty predictable when Olli/Schultz falter to start plus the latter goes down for months.
JJ thrust into a middle pairing shutdown role isn't the place for him. It's like he's right back with Torts in Columbus.

If i were mapping out this D core, i'd try and get as close to another Dumoulin as i can and:

Dumo-Tang
AnotherDumo-Schultz
Riiko-Rig/JJ

Is what i'd work towards.

 

[Gurglesons]

Pretty predictable when Olli/Schultz falter to start plus the latter goes down for months.
JJ thrust into a middle pairing shutdown role isn't the place for him. It's like he's right back with Torts in Columbus.

If i were mapping out this D core, i'd try and get as close to another Dumoulin as i can and:

Dumo-Tang
AnotherDumo-Schultz
Riiko-Rig/JJ

Is what i'd work towards.

Maatta for Edler +

 

[Mrs Crosby's Dryer]

Hypothetically if we did package Maatta and Simon (so combined about 4.8MM going out) would there be much interest and what D man might be a realistic target and return?

 

[Peat]

A take I think people here may be angered about: trading Sheary and thinking both to give Johnson that contract and Simon can replace him looks pretty foolish so far.

Personally, unless Sheary starts blowing up some post-seasons, trading him is never going to look foolish to me. Love the guy, but this is a team built around the play-offs and offence first forwards who don't really bring it then don't have a place here. And will pretty much always be happy with trying Simon rather than forcing an expensive trade too, regardless of how Simon turns out.

That one sucks right now - I'd be super vocal in favour of Sheary-Sheahan-Horny if he was here - but it was always the smart play.

And speaking of Sheahan, to back track to an old argument...

I'd love a position where Rust is out worst 5v5 player in the top 9 and think we should pursue that as an ideal, but sometimes I think we've got to accept that its an almost impossible ideal and making a few compromises makes you stronger. I think Sheahan could be one of them. I think, given what he has shown he can do with talent, you're going to get a stronger roster by throwing the resources at wingers than at throwing them at a guy who's not all that better.

To a certain extent he's got a bit of work to do this season to prove it wasn't all a fluke last season and that this is correct, but in general I think the principle is sound.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hypothetically if we did package Maatta and Simon (so combined about 4.8MM going out) would there be much interest and what D man might be a realistic target and return?

Edler. But, I think that is too much.

Honestly, I’d flip Maatta for Edler when Schultz shows he is healthy and flip Sprong for either a LW with some term (probably have to package a pick) or Sprong for a similar LW prospect that has less scoring pedigree but can hopefully fill Hags role.

 

[Tender Rip]

I don't really think it is super meaningful to talk trades yet, as there's still plenty of time for players to improve/acclimatize (like Johnson, Maatta, Brasssard for instance)... and for teams to have changed perspectives which will make players available/unavailable.

But in principle I think we can say what would be the main priorities for us in an idea world.

1: A D-man who can provide a real boost to the top4 (in that case we'd likely have to make room cap-wise by dealing one of Maatta, Johnson or even Schultz if the player coming back could take over that function including a secondary PP option). A guy like TJ Brodie is-could be interesting in that respect. There's a bit of Kris Letang lite to him.
2: A forward for the RW who - like Horny - helps Sid play down-low when it matters. Tenacious, quick, going to the dirty areas, with some hands. Even if he isn't with Sid all the time, this is a quality we are short of. A Brendan Gallagher or Ondrej Palat type would be dreamy to mention two guys we cannot expect to be available.

 

[Gurglesons]

I feel like Brodie would be more of a problem than a resolution to our D. And I really like Brodie.

 

[Tender Rip]

I feel like Brodie would be more of a problem than a resolution to our D. And I really like Brodie.

Could be. He can be an adventure at times for sure.
I just mention him because he was brought up yesterday who could maybe be available and has a meaningful cap-hit, while being a good enough skater to drive possession for his pairing. I think you mentioned somewhere that we should otherwise be looking for another player like Dumoulin, and whereas that would also be fine, it has to be said that Dumoulin does not drive posession at all. He only has good numbers in that regards when he is with Letang (or some spells with Schultz when Schultz was in peak form and also drove possession well).

Anyway, don't want to be caught up in names at this stage.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I think a LW should be the first target and soonish. It’ll help at lot with L3 which has a trickle down effect to other parts of our team.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think a LW should be the first target and soonish. It’ll help at lot with L3 which has a trickle down effect to other parts of our team.

Honestly, I’d prefer it to help L2. Hagelin getting knocked down to L3 really helps this team’s depth out.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Honestly, I’d prefer it to help L2. Hagelin getting knocked down to L3 really helps this team’s depth out.

I prefer Hags with Geno (if Phil or Horny are there) but either way we should be after one. Simon needs more time, he’s not up to it yet. I wouldn’t play Rust on LW unless it’s with Phil and we’d still have to monitor it because he’s not as good there.

Our depth is Jake, Hags, Simon and Cullen/Sheahan. Then Grant who’s also a C, ZAR who isn’t lighting it up. Anyone playing well in WBS right now is a RW.

JR has already tried for Domi and Skinner that we know of and I’m sure a few others.

There are a couple of ways to look at it depending on the quality of the LW

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
XXXX-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Brassard-Kessel

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist/Rust
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
XXXX-Brassard-Rust/Hornqvist

 

[Riptide]

If Oil are out by deadline I go after Klefbom and maybe Kassian. Wont need Oleksiak anymore.

Now what it will cost for those 2? no idea.

Edmonton is not trading Klefbom. The time to go after him was last season when they were really struggling, and he was doing very poorly, and even then he would have been expensive (Maatta+). Now? Yeah, that's not happening without a massive add from us - and even then it might not be possible.

 

[Riptide]

Apparently Leddy is available... I wonder why and what Lou wants for him... Maatta+ work?

Dumoulin - Letang
Leddy - Schultz
Riikola - Johnson

Oleksiak would likely have to be moved to make room (at least between now and when Schultz is expected back).

 

[66-30-33]

I'd go after Leddy, he's a very fast skating dman.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Personally, unless Sheary starts blowing up some post-seasons, trading him is never going to look foolish to me. Love the guy, but this is a team built around the play-offs and offence first forwards who don't really bring it then don't have a place here. And will pretty much always be happy with trying Simon rather than forcing an expensive trade too, regardless of how Simon turns out.

I feel like Sheary's playoff struggles are overblown, he had 17 points in 45 games in their 2 cup runs, which is perfectly solid production. He didn't produce well last year at all, but no one outside of the Crosby line did. It made sense why they traded Sheary, but what made sense about it was the thought that Rust was a LWer or that they were going to add a LWer. When their solution for replacing Sheary was just Simon while keeping Rust on RW and not bringing in a LWer, trading Sheary started making less sense. Using his money on signing Johnson to a comically long contract just added more problems.

It seems like they overrated the in-house replacements they had for Sheary, or at least Sullivan thinks much less highly of Simon and Sprong than he thought of Sheary. Now, they desperately need another top-9 LWer to push Simon to the 4th line, and they're likely going to trade Sprong to get that piece.

 

[Peat]

I feel like Sheary's playoff struggles are overblown, he had 17 points in 45 games in their 2 cup runs, which is perfectly solid production. He didn't produce well last year at all, but no one outside of the Crosby line did. It made sense why they traded Sheary, but what made sense about it was the thought that Rust was a LWer or that they were going to add a LWer. When their solution for replacing Sheary was just Simon while keeping Rust on RW and not bringing in a LWer, trading Sheary started making less sense. Using his money on signing Johnson to a comically long contract just added more problems.

It seems like they overrated the in-house replacements they had for Sheary, or at least Sullivan thinks much less highly of Simon and Sprong than he thought of Sheary. Now, they desperately need another top-9 LWer to push Simon to the 4th line, and they're likely going to trade Sprong to get that piece.

I agree that Sheary's playoff struggles are overblown - but I don't think you have to overblow them to say he didn't bring enough to stay. That 17 points in 45 games also makes him the 9th most productive forward to play both. If its solid, then solid is not enough from a 3m guy with little defence.

As for replacing him as a LW... Rutherford tried a few things, its fair to say this isn't isn't the first choice plan. But as a back up, as something to trial? I don't hate it as much as you and it still might play out as well for us. Sure, shopping looks likely for now, but even if it does come to that, I'm okay waiting 30 games to try and avoid overpaying.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I agree that Sheary's playoff struggles are overblown - but I don't think you have to overblow them to say he didn't bring enough to stay. That 17 points in 45 games also makes him the 9th most productive forward to play both. If its solid, then solid is not enough from a 3m guy with little defence.

As for replacing him as a LW... Rutherford tried a few things, its fair to say this isn't isn't the first choice plan. But as a back up, as something to trial? I don't hate it as much as you and it still might play out as well for us. Sure, shopping looks likely for now, but even if it does come to that, I'm okay waiting 30 games to try and avoid overpaying.

I don't think Sheary is overpaid at $3 million, because $3 million is pretty insignificant in today's NHL. I didn't have a problem getting 30-40 points out of Sheary, mostly at ES, for $3 million. I thought he was a really good fit with Brassard, and despite their production in the playoffs, I think those two would have been a great duo on the 3rd line this year.

In the offseason, the major thought was that Rust would slide to LW (or they'd acquire a LWer), and Simon would be more cost effective at $750k than Sheary at $3 million. The thought made sense, because you'd think that Simon should be able to provide around 30 points if he's playing in a 3rd line role all year. He's on pace for 35 points this year, so he has done that. However, his situation is the same as Sprong's, where he hasn't really played like a 35 point player, he just has 3 points in 7 games. The production likely won't continue because it seems like neither of them are showing much outside of the scoring logs. I think Simon (and Rust, for that matter) playing with Brassard this year is a huge factor for why Brassard has struggled, although that's not me excusing Brassard's substandard play.

Looking at their on ice shooting% kinda supports what I've seen from the two. You could chalk up Sheary's season last year to the entire team struggling to produce at ES, considering he only had a 7.9% on ice shooting%. Simon this year is at a 13.4% on ice shooting%, which is obscene. That supports my thought that their production isn't sustainable.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sheary's playoff struggles are overblown?

Over his 3 playoff runs here he was the 13th highest scorer on the team, and this despite playing with Crosby for a good portion of the time, and some of his competition only being here for 2 runs instead of 3:

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Keep in mind that this player is also a non-factor defensively.

Currently, Sheary has 4 points (1 at ES) in 9 games with 16:32 TOI/G (3:47 PP) playing with Eichel and Reinhart for 60% of the time at ES (Line Combinations - Frozen Tools) and 69% o-zone starts.

Sheary nostalgia is about as misplaced as latter-day Kunitz nostalgia. We're better off without both.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sheary had 1 less ES point in 2016 and 2017 combined than Hornqvist had in those 2 runs, and Hornqvist played just as much with Crosby as Sheary did. Sheary was 7th among forwards in ES points in 2016 with 9 ES points, which was the same as Malkin and Rust and 1 behind Crosby and Hornqvist. He was 9th among forwards in 2017 with 7 ES points, he was tied with Bonino and Hornqvist. The only year he struggled in the playoffs was in 2018, when everyone outside of Crosby, Guentzel and Hornqvist had 3 or less ES points. He only had 1 ES point in the playoffs last year, but Malkin and Brassard had 2 and Kessel and Rust had 3.

Yes, his "playoff struggles" are way overblown. The only difference in ES production between Malkin and Sheary in the playoffs over those 3 years comes from 2017. The only difference in ES production between Hornqvist and Sheary comes from 2018. Compared to guys like Hornqvist, Sheary just didn't have that 1 insane run that other guys had.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sheary had 1 less ES point in 2016 and 2017 combined than Hornqvist had in those 2 runs, and Hornqvist played just as much with Crosby as Sheary did. Sheary was 7th among forwards in ES points in 2016 with 9 ES points, which was the same as Malkin and Rust and 1 behind Crosby and Hornqvist. He was 9th among forwards in 2017 with 7 ES points, he was tied with Bonino and Hornqvist. The only year he struggled in the playoffs was in 2018, when everyone outside of Crosby, Guentzel and Hornqvist had 3 or less ES points. He only had 1 ES point in the playoffs last year, but Malkin and Brassard had 2 and Kessel and Rust had 3.

Yes, his "playoff struggles" are way overblown.

That he was 13th in playoff scoring on our team over 3 years here suggests otherwise. He was mediocre there even prior to last year, and that dubious performance sealed the deal.

Sheary's playoff ES numbers are underwhelming in and of themselves, but they're even more pronounced because unlike his competition, he didn't have any kind of special teams role here and never would.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That he was 13th in playoff scoring on our team over 3 years here suggests otherwise. He was mediocre there even prior to last year, and that dubious performance sealed the deal.

Sheary's playoff ES numbers are underwhelming in and of themselves, but they're even more pronounced because unlike his competition, he didn't have any kind of special teams role here and never would.

That he was 7th among forwards in ES points 2016, with the same as Malkin and Rust, and 9th in ES points 2017, with the same as Bonino and Hornqvist, suggests it is overblown. Sheary produced the same as the rest of the top-6 in 2016, produced like a fringe 2nd/3rd liner in 2017 and just as badly as everyone else minus Crosby's line in 2018. Yes, his struggles are overblown.