Speculation: Sabres Roster Speculation - Pre-season 2023 Edition

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The player charts are absolutely not "just a counting stat". They are based on algorithms that compare results from different players on different teams in different roles playing in different systems and draw conclusions by assigning rankings without an ounce of context and ARE implying a narrative with their rankings.

WAR charts are designed to measure similar situations for evaluations, and they work well for sports were players' individual performances are more isolated,(pitchers, QBs, etc), but are often extremely misleading in a purely team sport like hockey where the game control is much less reliant on individuals.(the McDavids, Crosby's, and MacKinnons aside).

Cozens' lines gave up a lot of goals last season, but watching and evaluating the plays, rarely was he the primary reason the puck ended up in the back of the Sabres net.
No its not. WAR is an attempt to come up with a single number using a model that captures the total of a players value vs a replacement level player (Oversimplification). Which itself has various definitions depending on model.

Goals, assists and points are straight forward, objective and INDIVIDUAL stats. They're not trying to do anything other than measure how many goals or assists, etc a player had. As opposed to trying to encapsulate the entire value of a player like WAR is.

WAR has value. But too many think it’s an objective individual stat like goals, assists, etc. Its not But you seem to think it is based on how you’re using it.

In general I think it’s wishful thinking they will ever come up with a single stat that tells the entire value of a player. There are some in the analytics community that wonder this as well. But there is definitely value in working towards it.
I actually agree with you guys that WAR/GAR falls far short of it's intended goal. I don't think that a player who is 1 WAR/GAR above another player will literally translate to 1 more win/goal as the stat intends.

Much like I don't think xGF/xGA literally translate to how many goals a team should have scored/gave up. But I do find xGF/xGA extremely useful, especially when comparing ratios, at determining which team generally played better and created/gave up more chances/quality of those chances. Also useful at judging goalie performances.

I do think WAR, GAR and to a greater extent their underlying's of EVO, EVD, PPO, PKD are useful when you view them as what they really are, which are conglomerations, or baskets of underlying counting stats converted into a single number, by giving them all varying weights and then comparing them to the hypothetical "replacement player". (Think of them like an Index, or ETF/Mutual fund in finance).

What part of this doesn't pass the smell test for you guys? Given the context, these results all make perfect sense to me.


PlayerSeasonTeamPositionGPTOI AllEVOEVDPPOSHDTakeDrawOffDefPensGARWAR
Dylan Cozens22-23BUFC811336.28.5-4.12.4-3.21.40.410.9-7.31.85.40.9
Rasmus Dahlin22-23BUFD782010.67.74.96-0.3-21.213.74.6-0.817.53
Zemgus Girgensons22-23BUFL801038.2-6.75.10.1-1.81.10.6-6.63.31.6-1.6-0.3
Jeff Skinner22-23BUFL791374.419.6-5.92.302.11.421.9-5.93.419.53.3
Owen Power22-23BUFD791880.911.1-3-0.2-0.11.7010.9-3.11.89.61.6

Cozens
8.5 EVO excellent at even strength offense
-4.1 EVD he wasn't coached to focus on the defensive side of the puck at all, he was told to play Run n' gun, all gas no brakes offense. No surprise that he had poor results here. Similar but not as extreme results as Tage and Skinner who played the same style/system but on a different line.
PPO 2.4, he was good on the PP. No surprise here
SHD -3.2, the Sabres had one of the worst PK in the league and Cozens played a lot of minutes on it. No surprise that he'd have a poor score here.

Dahlin. Excellent at everything besides the PK and taking penalties. He's been under the microscope of the Refs ever since Matthews neck chopped him and gets called for lots of phantom bull sh*t. He also plays with an edge and has a reputation for it.

Girgs, horrific offense, excellent at even strength D. Poor on the PK, because the Sabres have one of the worst PKs in the league and he plays a lot of minutes on it.

Skinner. Outrageous at even strength offense, horrific at even strength defense, good on the pp, doesn't play the pk, great at not taking penalties and great at drawing penalties.

Power. Excellent at even strength offense, struggled at even strength d, lack luster but not bad on the pp and pk. Great at not taking penalties which makes sense as he's not a physical player, didn't draw many penalties (Refs: "gotta earn those calls 'rook!" )
 
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The problem is a lot of people don't agree with you that he is dynamic anymore. If his play on the defensive side of the puck is as bad as it has been for the last little while then he isn't dynamic, he is just a one dimensional scoring winger. We don't need more goals.

People aren't saying we couldn't use a talented, creative, dynamic winger. They are disagreeing with you that Kane fits that criteria anymore.
I’m well aware of what they’re disagreeing with. In fact I believe I mention right at the end that I understand.
 
You figure the analytics brain trust will have a position on signing Kane. Short of Pegula forcing the issue, I'd absolutely give the team the benefit of the doubt on this one. Strident opposition to the notion is curious to me.
 
How?

And I've met, talked, and skated with him. He's a cool funny kid who still works out with his old NTDP teammates in the off season in Plymouth, MI like Jack Hughes and Caufield. They love the guy. Tell me more about how he's a douche...
He skills it up
 
You figure the analytics brain trust will have a position on signing Kane. Short of Pegula forcing the issue, I'd absolutely give the team the benefit of the doubt on this one. Strident opposition to the notion is curious to me.

Based on what evidence? What additions that have been analytics home runs so far?

If anything the additions have been mostly head scratchers.
 
Will Kane sign with Buffalo ?

Skinner Thompson Tuch
Mittlestadt Cozens Kane
Peterka Savoie Olofsson (Quinn when back) Girgensons Krebs Greenway
Jost Okposo extra


Dahlin Clifton
Power Samuelsson
Jokiharju Johnson

Levi
Luukko
 
Will Kane sign with Buffalo ?

Skinner Thompson Tuch
Mittlestadt Cozens Kane
Peterka Savoie Olofsson (Quinn when back) Girgensons Krebs Greenway
Jost Okposo extra


Dahlin Clifton
Power Samuelsson
Jokiharju Johnson

Levi
Luukko
While it's a super exciting roster, they'd give back everything on the defensive side. It may go down as the least defense-friendly forward group in the NHL.
 
That makes a lot of sense and I'm not really 100% sure that my idea is the best one. I suppose that one or two more net positive lines would solve all of these issues. I think the mentality for the top 9 last season was to outshoot opponents. The first line was really the only successful line at that in the grand scheme.

I like the idea of rolling 4 lines and we have a great 4th line when you need to tilt the ice or stifle a line. They have been very predictable in that regard. So I'm just looking for a way to manufacture more net positive lines. I don't have any work to show though and I don't think they are going to play the same stylistically as last year. So it's all theoretical really but that's my thought process so it is completely reasonable to believe I'm out to lunch.
I think they can w health and D additions
 
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Will Kane sign with Buffalo ?

Skinner Thompson Tuch
Mittlestadt Cozens Kane
Peterka Savoie Olofsson (Quinn when back) Girgensons Krebs Greenway
Jost Okposo extra


Dahlin Clifton
Power Samuelsson
Jokiharju Johnson

Levi
Luukko

15 forwards. Who are you going to waive?
 
I actually agree with you guys that WAR/GAR falls far short of it's intended goal. I don't think that a player who is 1 WAR/GAR above another player will literally translate to 1 more win/goal as the stat intends.

Much like I don't think xGF/xGA literally translate to how many goals a team should have scored/gave up. But I do find xGF/xGA extremely useful, especially when comparing ratios, at determining which team generally played better and created/gave up more chances/quality of those chances. Also useful at judging goalie performances.

I do think WAR, GAR and to a greater extent their underlying's of EVO, EVD, PPO, PKD are useful when you view them as what they really are, which are conglomerations, or baskets of underlying counting stats converted into a single number, by giving them all varying weights and then comparing them to the hypothetical "replacement player". (Think of them like an Index, or ETF/Mutual fund in finance).

What part of this doesn't pass the smell test for you guys? Given the context, these results all make perfect sense to me.


[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]TOI All[/TD]
[TD]EVO[/TD]
[TD]EVD[/TD]
[TD]PPO[/TD]
[TD]SHD[/TD]
[TD]Take[/TD]
[TD]Draw[/TD]
[TD]Off[/TD]
[TD]Def[/TD]
[TD]Pens[/TD]
[TD]GAR[/TD]
[TD]WAR[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dylan Cozens[/TD]
[TD]22-23[/TD]
[TD]BUF[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]81[/TD]
[TD]1336.2[/TD]
[TD]8.5[/TD]
[TD]-4.1[/TD]
[TD]2.4[/TD]
[TD]-3.2[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[TD]10.9[/TD]
[TD]-7.3[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD]5.4[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rasmus Dahlin[/TD]
[TD]22-23[/TD]
[TD]BUF[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]78[/TD]
[TD]2010.6[/TD]
[TD]7.7[/TD]
[TD]4.9[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]-0.3[/TD]
[TD]-2[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD]13.7[/TD]
[TD]4.6[/TD]
[TD]-0.8[/TD]
[TD]17.5[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Zemgus Girgensons[/TD]
[TD]22-23[/TD]
[TD]BUF[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]80[/TD]
[TD]1038.2[/TD]
[TD]-6.7[/TD]
[TD]5.1[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]-1.8[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]-6.6[/TD]
[TD]3.3[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[TD]-1.6[/TD]
[TD]-0.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jeff Skinner[/TD]
[TD]22-23[/TD]
[TD]BUF[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]79[/TD]
[TD]1374.4[/TD]
[TD]19.6[/TD]
[TD]-5.9[/TD]
[TD]2.3[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]2.1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD]21.9[/TD]
[TD]-5.9[/TD]
[TD]3.4[/TD]
[TD]19.5[/TD]
[TD]3.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Owen Power[/TD]
[TD]22-23[/TD]
[TD]BUF[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]79[/TD]
[TD]1880.9[/TD]
[TD]11.1[/TD]
[TD]-3[/TD]
[TD]-0.2[/TD]
[TD]-0.1[/TD]
[TD]1.7[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]10.9[/TD]
[TD]-3.1[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD]9.6[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Cozens
8.5 EVO excellent at even strength offense
-4.1 EVD he wasn't coached to focus on the defensive side of the puck at all, he was told to play Run n' gun, all gas no brakes offense. No surprise that he had poor results here. Similar but not as extreme results as Tage and Skinner who played the same style/system but on a different line.
PPO 2.4, he was good on the PP. No surprise here
SHD -3.2, the Sabres had one of the worst PK in the league and Cozens played a lot of minutes on it. No surprise that he'd have a poor score here.

Dahlin. Excellent at everything besides the PK and taking penalties. He's been under the microscope of the Refs ever since Matthews neck chopped him and gets called for lots of phantom bull sh*t. He also plays with an edge and has a reputation for it.

Girgs, horrific offense, excellent at even strength D. Poor on the PK, because the Sabres have one of the worst PKs in the league and he plays a lot of minutes on it.

Skinner. Outrageous at even strength offense, horrific at even strength defense, good on the pp, doesn't play the pk, great at not taking penalties and great at drawing penalties.

Power. Excellent at even strength offense, struggled at even strength d, lack luster but not bad on the pp and pk. Great at not taking penalties which makes sense as he's not a physical player, didn't draw many penalties (Refs: "gotta earn those calls 'rook!" )
These stats are situation blind but would be helpful to see compared presented w year before next to each figure seeing improvement in system on each.
 
First I'm 100% not an insider so don't want this to come off that way but... By total chance I ran into someone in the organization last year and he seemed pretty open with what his expectations were.

He thought Savoie was going to get an extended stay and then be sent back to whl(wished he was ahl eligible) and play wjc this year.

Expected Kulich to play up and down this year. In saying that I really think it's between Rosen and Kulich to start the season in Buffalo.

Also mentioned that he loved Benson but thought there was no chance he'd be around when buff picked. So I thought it was pretty cool when we got him.

Nothing groundbreaking as it's all pretty much in line with many posters opinions but thought I'd share.

Skinner tage tuch
Peterka cozens kulich/rosen
Oloffson mittlestadt greenway
Girgensons Krebs Okposo
Jost

Is my guess until quinn comes back. If they really bring in Kane oloffson has to go.
If benson continues he gets his less than 9 . So we need someone for 30 plus games minimum. We'll see who else over next 6
 
I think they can w health and D additions
Well judging by the tiny sample of one away preseason game, they're not going to play much differently stylistically. Pushing play up ice and into the O zone with speed and bodies then rounding the boards until something opens up.

That's great but they'll still have trouble against good, fast transition teams unless the defenders are better at shutting down the odd man and transition rushes against. I hope they're talking a lot about hips/angles/leverage/positioning in the d zone because we also had a lot of trouble once teams were able to set up in our zone. There's a pretty good chunk that seems like low hanging fruit so they should be able to clean a lot of that up.
 
The Athletic has the Sabres projecting to be four points Worse and finish 22nd but they're already backtracking off that projection which comes mostly from Dom's annually skewed numbers.


Right off the bat, we’re not thrilled about this forecast. Based on the hype the Sabres started to build last season, this feels like a forecast that won’t age well. Buffalo has a very young and exciting team on the rise and projecting a four-point drop feels wrong when everyone in the hockey world expects a playoff breakthrough. We don’t necessarily disagree with that assertion and a 20 percent shot at the playoffs does feel undeservingly low. Oddsmakers see this team closer to 92 points and a 50-50 playoff team.
 
The Athletic has the Sabres projecting to be four points Worse and finish 22nd but they're already backtracking off that projection which comes mostly from Dom's annually skewed numbers.

I believe the Sabres have outperformed Dom's model's projection each of the past two seasons.

It won't be shocking if they make it three in a row.
 
The Athletic has the Sabres projecting to be four points Worse and finish 22nd but they're already backtracking off that projection which comes mostly from Dom's annually skewed numbers.

Until the Sabres have a breakout season, I think that is the safe bet based on recent history

It is my belief that this team is different but they need to prove it on the ice for an entire season Can’t lose back to backs. Need to play consistently and prove it.
 
I think we can probably shut down this thread for the time being. The only real question is do they go 8 D or 3 G?

13F:

Thompson
Cozens
Tuch
Skinner
Greenway
Peterka
Olofsson
Mittelstadt
Krebs
Jost
Okposo
Girgensons
One of Rousek/Kulich

D:
Dahlin
Power
Samuelsson
Clifton
Johnson
Joker
Stillman
Bryson

G:
Comrie
UPL
Levi

If I had to guess, they are probably going to send Bryson to the minors via waivers and run 13/7/3
 
I think we can probably shut down this thread for the time being. The only real question is do they go 8 D or 3 G?

13F:

Thompson
Cozens
Tuch
Skinner
Greenway
Peterka
Olofsson
Mittelstadt
Krebs
Jost
Okposo
Girgensons
One of Rousek/Kulich

D:
Dahlin
Power
Samuelsson
Clifton
Johnson
Joker
Stillman
Bryson

G:
Comrie
UPL
Levi

If I had to guess, they are probably going to send Bryson to the minors via waivers and run 13/7/3
I think we can not shut it down because there's still speculation and season hasn't started? Now if you feel like we need to start a Fall speculation thread, that is different.

Also yes, Bryson to Waivers is basically automatic.
 
I think we can probably shut down this thread for the time being. The only real question is do they go 8 D or 3 G?

13F:

Thompson
Cozens
Tuch
Skinner
Greenway
Peterka
Olofsson
Mittelstadt
Krebs
Jost
Okposo
Girgensons
One of Rousek/Kulich

D:
Dahlin
Power
Samuelsson
Clifton
Johnson
Joker
Stillman
Bryson

G:
Comrie
UPL
Levi

If I had to guess, they are probably going to send Bryson to the minors via waivers and run 13/7/3
Joe & Lance seemed to be guessing that they go with 8 D and 2 G and Comrie is waived or traded based off of their most recent pod.

It's still being brought down by the Ralphus
I also think Granato coaches in a pretty unique way and the model is unable to adjust to that reality.
 
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It's still being brought down by the Ralphus
1695663925191.jpeg
 
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