Toggle sidebar

Sabres Management and Coaching Thread

  • Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Status
Not open for further replies.
Jame said:
That's not tanking.
Tanking is actively working towards as bad a roster as possible with the primary goal of the season being to lose as much as possible.

Tanking is not converting current assets to future assets with the understanding that you won't be very competitive... that's rebuilding


There's a distinct difference
Click to expand...

I agree except to the extent that tanking requires losing as much as possible. It's a fine line you try to walk between getting to the top of the draft and inflicting needless wounds on yourself.

Your definition would have Murray trade ristolainen, Girgensons, never sign gionta, etc.
 
haseoke39 said:
I agree except to the extent that tanking requires losing as much as possible. It's a fine line you try to walk between getting to the top of the draft and inflicting needless wounds on yourself.

Your definition would have Murray trade ristolainen, Girgensons, never sign gionta, etc.
Click to expand...

And that's why I give Murray credit for being able to truly tank unlike anyone before him.
 
It's hard for me to look at Tim Murray's moves and say I wished he would have done things differently. Almost all of his deals had been scenarios I hoped would happen. If I had to grade him I would give a B+.

Only complaints,

Still do not like the Lehner trade, would have preferred to draft an asset with the first round pick in 2015 and trade for a journeyman goaltender like Eddie Lack. I understand why Murray made the deal but thought the price was too much for a goaltender.

2014 draft - This is an unfair criticism, but it bothers me that a GM known for his scouting prowess had such a poor draft (thus far anyways). I understand that he was new to the organization and likely hadn't imprinted his ideas and directives firmly within the scouting group as of yet, but man it would have been nice to have landed a Dvorak or Montour with one of those three 2nd round picks.

2017 Trade Deadline - Not being able to move Kulikov and Franson caught Tim off guard. It was one of the few times (other being losing the draft lottery for McJesus) I've seen Tim rattled. He played a game of chicken and at the end of the day nobody wanted to pay the asking price. I watched this happen a year prior with Jim Benning and his failure to move Vrbata and Hamhuis at the 2016 trade deadline. Sometimes you need to get out in front of things and take what you can get. Not surprisingly Benning completed his trades before deadline day this year.

2016 NHL Draft - This is more just personal preference, but I would have rather we drafted a D man with our first round pick rather than Nylander.
 
Jame said:
I don't think it's hair brained for Lafontaine to sell one approach, and then have Murray sell another.
Click to expand...

Of course not, we all agree that's what was happening. But lafontaine is just irrelevant to the conversation of what regier was trying to do, unless (as it seems you're doing) you use him as some proxy for regiers position. In reality, it's clear lafontaine never tried to push his vision for the team during the Murray hiring proces, and I'd wager he didn't when pegula brought him on either. He came in not wanting the GM job and his vision for what the team should be seems more like a bureaucratic accident than any real barometer of the regime that came before him or the ownership.
 
Jame said:
And that's why I give Murray credit for being able to truly tank unlike anyone before him.
Click to expand...

Your meaning isn't entirely clear to me, it suffice to say I agree with the gist of your definition and think mine is merely a more precise elocution of the same thing. "Lose as much as possible" is just a poorly thought through way of articulating the goal of getting to the top of the draft.
 
haseoke39 said:
Your meaning isn't entirely clear to me, it suffice to say I agree with the gist of your definition and think mine is merely a more precise elocution of the same thing. "Lose as much as possible" is just a poorly thought through way of articulating the goal of getting to the top of the draft.
Click to expand...

Murray built a roster with zero top 6 forwards, and zero (edit: one) top 4 defensemen, that appeared to have such things. That's tanking
 
Regier could've bought out Ehrhoff with no penalty (compliance buyout), and replaced his 4 million dollars with a turd. He choose not to, Murray tanked (meszaros 4 million).
 
If Buffalo and Toronto are the guinea pigs in the "rebuild vs tank" experiment, it's now looking likely that rebuild is the best way to go. The tank has taken longer and yielded much worse results. Too bad we went the wrong route -- I would've been fine with Marner and not having to have a 7 year recovery.
 
Doug Prishpreed said:
If Buffalo and Toronto are the guinea pigs in the "rebuild vs tank" experiment, it's now looking likely that rebuild is the best way to go. The tank has taken longer and yielded much worse results. Too bad we went the wrong route -- I would've been fine with Marner and not having to have a 7 year recovery.
Click to expand...

A lot more to do with the head coach than the manner of roster construction.
 
Doug Prishpreed said:
If Buffalo and Toronto are the guinea pigs in the "rebuild vs tank" experiment, it's now looking likely that rebuild is the best way to go. The tank has taken longer and yielded much worse results. Too bad we went the wrong route -- I would've been fine with Marner and not having to have a 7 year recovery.
Click to expand...

Toronto's rebuild more or less started after the 2012 season. They're comparable in length.
 
Doug Prishpreed said:
If Buffalo and Toronto are the guinea pigs in the "rebuild vs tank" experiment, it's now looking likely that rebuild is the best way to go. The tank has taken longer and yielded much worse results. Too bad we went the wrong route -- I would've been fine with Marner and not having to have a 7 year recovery.
Click to expand...

Luck helps as well...This will be unpopular, but I think the Sabres make the playoffs if they win the 2015 lottery and Draft McDavid. Conversely, I don't think the Leafs make the playoffs this year without Matthews.
 
Doug Prishpreed said:
Disagree. A coach doesn't equate to a 17 point difference in the standings. This team looks just as bad on paper as they do on ice.
Click to expand...

The teams are pretty comparable roster wise. The main differences were injuries, coaching, and Toronto having a bit more depth.
 
Do people forget Toronto won a god damn lottery?


We win a lottery in 2015 and the don't in 2016 we're probably in different positions. Connor McDavid is probably playing under Mike Babcock if we win that lottery.
 
Doug Prishpreed said:
Disagree. A coach doesn't equate to a 17 point difference in the standings. This team looks just as bad on paper as they do on ice.
Click to expand...

I do. Toronto's system doesn't have defenseman making passes they can't make. They also actively attempt to maintain possession instead of dumping it in and chasing.

Imagine Marner and Nylander flying into the corners to flag down dumps against Boychuk, Hedman, Weber, etc. Dumb strategy and a waste of their skill.

Yet that's exactly what Bylsma asks Reinhart to do. And posters on this board complain that he's regressed and throw him into trade offers.

Imagine Carrick and Polak firing stretch passes and making zone exit decisions. That's a ton of turnovers waiting to happen.

Yet that's exactly what Bylsma asks Gorges and Bogosian to do.

A different coach uses talent better. Looks at the games where Buffalo gave up leads by turtling after getting a lead. That's half the 17 right there.
 
Doug Prishpreed said:
If Buffalo and Toronto are the guinea pigs in the "rebuild vs tank" experiment, it's now looking likely that rebuild is the best way to go. The tank has taken longer and yielded much worse results. Too bad we went the wrong route -- I would've been fine with Marner and not having to have a 7 year recovery.
Click to expand...

and Marner would have been surrounded by who? Vanek, Pominville, Stafford? JT Compher I suppose and Grigorenko. That would be some team.

the Leafs were extremely lucky along with some smart management - they had some young players worth hanging onto, Kadri - JVR - Bozak, Marner at 4th was good fortune, Nylander even better fortune dropping in their lap at 8th, then they WON THE LOTTERY in a year where a generational prospect was available.

Shanahan has done a great job, bringing in a lot of management and scouting talent - Dubas and Keefe in charge of their AHL team, Mark Hunter head of their scouting operation, and finally bringing on Lamoriello capped off his most important acquisition, Babcock.

Can't blame the owner or GM for not getting Babcock, they did all they could.
 
Der Jaeger said:
I do. Toronto's system doesn't have defenseman making passes they can't make. They also actively attempt to maintain possession instead of dumping it in and chasing.

Imagine Marner and Nylander flying into the corners to flag down dumps against Boychuk, Hedman, Weber, etc. Dumb strategy and a waste of their skill.

Yet that's exactly what Bylsma asks Reinhart to do. And posters on this board complain that he's regressed and throw him into trade offers.

Imagine Carrick and Polak firing stretch passes and making zone exit decisions. That's a ton of turnovers waiting to happen.

Yet that's exactly what Bylsma asks Gorges and Bogosian to do.

A different coach uses talent better. Looks at the games where Buffalo gave up leads by turtling after getting a lead. That's half the 17 right there.
Click to expand...

Good post.
 
Jame said:
Murray built a roster with zero top 6 forwards, and zero (edit: one) top 4 defensemen, that appeared to have such things. That's tanking
Click to expand...

I agree that Murray tanked.

The funny thing is that, by your definition, he did not. Your definition says it would have been better for him to build a 44 point team, or a 24 point team, or a 0 point team.

My definition says he tanked nearly perfectly, just enough to get to the top of the draft.

And yet you come into this insisting I have a faulty definition of tanking which logically invalidates my opinions on Regier. You're twisting yourself into some incoherency trying to make what is fundamentally a matter of opinion into something objectively favoring you.

I grant you your opinion that Regier would not have tanked, and there's no way we'll ever know.
 
BiPolarBear said:
and Marner would have been surrounded by who? Vanek, Pominville, Stafford? JT Compher I suppose and Grigorenko. That would be some team.

the Leafs were extremely lucky along with some smart management - they had some young players worth hanging onto, Kadri - JVR - Bozak, Marner at 4th was good fortune, Nylander even better fortune dropping in their lap at 8th, then they WON THE LOTTERY in a year where a generational prospect was available.

Shanahan has done a great job, bringing in a lot of management and scouting talent - Dubas and Keefe in charge of their AHL team, Mark Hunter head of their scouting operation, and finally bringing on Lamoriello capped off his most important acquisition, Babcock.

Can't blame the owner or GM for not getting Babcock, they did all they could.
Click to expand...

I didn't say we shouldn't make any trades...where did I say I want any of those old players on the team?
 
Der Jaeger said:
I do. Toronto's system doesn't have defenseman making passes they can't make. They also actively attempt to maintain possession instead of dumping it in and chasing.

Imagine Marner and Nylander flying into the corners to flag down dumps against Boychuk, Hedman, Weber, etc. Dumb strategy and a waste of their skill.

Yet that's exactly what Bylsma asks Reinhart to do. And posters on this board complain that he's regressed and throw him into trade offers.

Imagine Carrick and Polak firing stretch passes and making zone exit decisions. That's a ton of turnovers waiting to happen.

Yet that's exactly what Bylsma asks Gorges and Bogosian to do.

A different coach uses talent better. Looks at the games where Buffalo gave up leads by turtling after getting a lead. That's half the 17 right there.
Click to expand...

The coach is definitely making a negative impact. Just not as much as many are implying. If Buffalo played like Toronto with our defense, we'd have the most goals against in NHL history and we'd still be losing. I'd say that AT MOST Byisma is responsible for 10 points. At most. Almost definitely less. I don't think any coach can be responsible for 17 POINT difference, that's placing way too much importance on the coach..
 
Doug Prishpreed said:
If Buffalo and Toronto are the guinea pigs in the "rebuild vs tank" experiment, it's now looking likely that rebuild is the best way to go. The tank has taken longer and yielded much worse results. Too bad we went the wrong route -- I would've been fine with Marner and not having to have a 7 year recovery.
Click to expand...

Toronto didn't tank.

Too bad we couldn't hire the right coach
 
Doug Prishpreed said:
The coach is definitely making a negative impact. Just not as much as many are implying. If Buffalo played like Toronto with our defense, we'd have the most goals against in NHL history and we'd still be losing. I'd say that AT MOST Byisma is responsible for 10 points. At most. Almost definitely less. I don't think any coach can be responsible for 17 POINT difference, that's placing way too much importance on the coach..
Click to expand...

Buffalo's defense isn't that much worse than Toronto's. They're hoping for 1-2 defensive adds as well.

Rolling Eichel, ROR, and Reinhart lines which maintained possession and played to the talent would account for more goals. Just like it has for the Leafs.
 
Doug Prishpreed said:
I didn't say we shouldn't make any trades...where did I say I want any of those old players on the team?
Click to expand...

well the Vanek, Pominville and Miller trades were part of the tank. How else would we have been bad enough to draft 2nd overall twice? I guess you're saying make those trades but for players who could have helped us immediately. Add them and maybe you end up drafting a Sam Bennett and Marner.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Top Bottom