Sabres Management and Coaching Thread

[Dingo44]

While it certainly could be spun that way, nothing in the OP actually says anything about Bylsma or his coaching. Just as it could be spun to blame the players, or Murray.

The thread is really just about the question of, which situation are you more confident in the team. Which was apparently more one sided than I realized (granted I posted it on the night where they staged a pretty nifty comeback ).

Every thread can be turned into a "I hate Tim Murray" thread if you want it enough.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Every thread can be turned into a "I hate Tim Murray" thread if you want it enough.

I like Murray, he is just bad at his job.

 

[joshjull]

I like Murray, he is just bad at his job.

Reading your posts is a supremely frustrating endeavor. You're convinced coaching isn't the issue its the talent Murray assembled. Yet you've shown ,and even admitted, that you know next to nothing about coaching strategy/tactics and coaching in generally really. How you come to the conclusion that the coach isn't the issue while simultaneously admitting you next to nothing about coaching is beyond me.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Its all the same conversation. This thread is about Bylsma stinks as a coach. I try to put the focus where it should be, Tim Murray. Some people are afraid to criticize him. Want to believe Murray has nothing to do with Bylsma and Murray is being forced to keep Bylsma and his terrible system. Poor Murray.

no offense, but your logic in this thread quickly collides with itself.

 

[joshjull]

In the regular season yes.

Tell that to the Sens this season among others

 

[Dirty Dog]

Reading your posts is a supremely frustrating endeavor. You're convinced coaching isn't the issue its the talent Murray assembled. Yet you've shown ,and even admitted, that you know next to nothing about coaching strategy/tactics and coaching in generally really. How you come to the conclusion that the coach isn't the issue while simultaneously admitting you next to nothing about coaching is beyond me.

He also believes coaching doesn't matter in the regular season, and only in the playoffs. Yet states Bylsma has got the job done before as a coach under this same logic.


If we had a goldfish thread I wouldn't go in it pretending to be an expert on goldfish as I don't know anything about the, But you better believe 10 people would be in there explaining why Murray can't feed the goldfish right.

 

[joshjull]

There are a lot of reasons Lindy is getting fired in Dallas that are unrelated to the goaltending. Sabres fans need to move on, it's been several years now.

Outside of goaltending and injuries, what are the issues?


I'm not clamoring for Lindt btw but those are the two reasons I hear as the prime downfall of his team.

 

[joshjull]

He also believes coaching doesn't matter in the regular season, and only in the playoffs. Yet states Bylsma has got the job done before as a coach under this same logic.


If we had a goldfish thread I wouldn't go in it pretending to be an expert on goldfish as I don't know anything about the, But you better believe 10 people would be in there explaining why Murray can't feed the goldfish right.

Which is ridiculous. Coaching can have a bigger impact in the playoffs because of the nature of the single team matchups. Over a 7 game series between two teams that don't have big gaps in skill (as opposed to the weaker teams out of the playoffs) it can come down to the adjustments that get made game to game (and in game as well) by the coaches. But coaching without question impacts a team and how it plays during the regular season. It sets the basic template for the team and its the coach that helps them get back to that when they veer away from it during the grind of the season. Or tweaks the template if its needed. The key to getting all that to work during the season is buy in from the players. That seems to be the biggest issue for Disco at the moment.

 

[Zman5778]

Outside of goaltending and injuries, what are the issues?


I'm not clamoring for Lindt btw but those are the two reasons I hear as the prime downfall of his team.

I'd imagine the Nuke thing is an issue -- be it real or imagined.

 

[OkimLom]

I know that doesn't support my point, or the point that Bylsma is costing us wins. The talent is costing us wins.

I dont post to be right, I post for conversation. No one that says Bylsma is the reason we lose makes any sense. So he does the same things that got him fired in Pittsburgh? Were they the same things that made him win the most games in the NHL and a cup?

His questionable decisions, his terrible transitional game are of course being brought front and center because we don't have the talent to hide his flaws. Pittsburgh's talent did. But of course, Pittsburgh was in the middle of their first contendership window with the core 5 (Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury, & Letang). They already went through the trials and tribulations with Eddie Olczyk. They lost in the first round in Therrien's first full season and lost in the finals in his 2nd full season. Comparing the talent and point in each organization's rebuild timeline is dumb IMO to defend Bylsma.

Murray needed a coach that was able to make up for the flaws in our team like Babcock is doing in Toronto. Bylsma is far from doing this. When his plans and systems are thrown out the door, that's when the team is at their most effective. But instead of seeing this and tweaking the team's game to a more simple approach, he keeps going back to his old complicated ways, because for some reason he wants to tell himself his line of thinking is what works and he's not letting his talent dictate the game for some reason. This is a young team, just let them play and learn from their mistakes, don't give them a laundry list of options of certain scenarios that they have to go through mentally while playing, while they are still trying to break into the league. It slows down their reactions and makes them overthink.

The roster surely needs an upgrade in talent, but that will come naturally as time progresses in the timeline of the rebuild. The importance of coaching is needed now while they are young, and we needed a coach who was able to make up for the flaws on this team. Bylsma's shortcomings in how he approaches the coaching position are more apparent than ever, and instead of being covered up by a Stanley Cup Contender roster, he's being exposed by a rebuilding talent roster.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Reading your posts is a supremely frustrating endeavor. You're convinced coaching isn't the issue its the talent Murray assembled. Yet you've shown ,and even admitted, that you know next to nothing about coaching strategy/tactics and coaching in generally really. How you come to the conclusion that the coach isn't the issue while simultaneously admitting you next to nothing about coaching is beyond me.

Well I never said. What I did say was I don't see tactics live during games. That's beside the point. Tim Murray employs a guy you think knows nothing about the game. Think about that for a minute. You guys don't understand at all how ridiculous you sound. Everyday I say the same stuff and everyday people get all worked up over it.

How can the same people support Tim Murray when he supports Bylsma? If you cant see my agenda by now then you will never see it. All I read is people calling Bylsma names on here and at the same time defending Murray? How does that make any sense at all.

Does coaching matter? I dont know. There are many things that make me think no. One of them is people saying Bylsma is a doofus, yet no coach had more wins than him during his time in Pittsburgh. Whenever I say that people tell me he had talent, well which is it?

 

[dkollidas]

Well I never said. What I did say was I don't see tactics live during games. That's beside the point. Tim Murray employs a guy you think knows nothing about the game. Think about that for a minute. You guys don't understand at all how ridiculous you sound. Everyday I say the same stuff and everyday people get all worked up over it.

How can the same people support Tim Murray when he supports Bylsma? If you cant see my agenda by now then you will never see it. All I read is people calling Bylsma names on here and at the same time defending Murray? How does that make any sense at all.

Does coaching matter? I dont know. There are many things that make me think no. One of them is people saying Bylsma is a doofus, yet no coach had more wins than him during his time in Pittsburgh. Whenever I say that people tell me he had talent, well which is it?

Well... there's a few reasons...

1. We really don't know how much input Murray had in hiring Bylsma. Yes, he's the GM, but ownership has heavy Pittsburgh and PA connections, and after seeing the Rex hire, we see they like to make "big money" hires with their coaches, and sign them to lucrative deals, in what looks like an attempt to get big names to come to Buffalo.

2. Murray while on WGR has discussed on multiple occasions not liking everything the coaching staff does, specifically citing their gap control, and stretch passing.

3. Murray most recently spent hours with the staff after the loss before the break (I think Colorado? But it could've been Arizona).

4. None of this has to be static. Just because almost two years ago, Murray might've thought Bylsma was a good idea, there's no reason he could now be saying to himself "we gotta change this up".

Lastly, my own point aside from anything we've seen or heard from the Buffalo brass... coaching changes seem to make a difference in this league, especially where you have 80+games per season. Florida got healthy, but has played better since replacing Gallant.
Boston has been much better since Claude was let go. And Claude seems to be doing a decent job in Montreal as well. The evidence exists that mid-season coaching changes make a difference in the overall psyche of a locker room.

I really think if they go into next season with Bylsma the players will be extremely deflated, come out flat, and he'll end up gone by November anyways.

 

[OkimLom]

Well I never said. What I did say was I don't see tactics live during games. That's beside the point. Tim Murray employs a guy you think knows nothing about the game. Think about that for a minute. You guys don't understand at all how ridiculous you sound. Everyday I say the same stuff and everyday people get all worked up over it.

How can the same people support Tim Murray when he supports Bylsma? If you cant see my agenda by now then you will never see it. All I read is people calling Bylsma names on here and at the same time defending Murray? How does that make any sense at all.

Does coaching matter? I dont know. There are many things that make me think no. One of them is people saying Bylsma is a doofus, yet no coach had more wins than him during his time in Pittsburgh. Whenever I say that people tell me he had talent, well which is it?

I can't speak for everyone else, but I support Murray because I understand there's more to Murray's job than just hiring a coach, and more for Murray to focus on than just the main roster. Yes, hiring the coach is part of his job, and I'm not thrilled with that part but I also understand that it would be bad practice to fire your rebuilding coach 1 year or 1 and 1/2 years into his contract, especially . For the main roster, I think it depends on what you expected up to this point and where we should be at this point in the rebuild.

I'm not going to be overly worried about this roster makeup until we see the results from Murray's draft picks start filtering in in the the pro aspect of this team(AHL or NHL). This is why I didn't have any issues with Rochester this year and not throwing in the towel of the rebuild. I'm thinking you're going to see a large influx of talent in the next season. Guys like Petersen, Estephan, Stephens, Hurley(?), Borgen, Guhle, Pu and possibly Johansson are going to be a big part of Rochester, to go along with Nylander, Baptiste, Fasching, Schneider.

 

[Zip15]

Outside of goaltending and injuries, what are the issues?


I'm not clamoring for Lindt btw but those are the two reasons I hear as the prime downfall of his team.

A lot of Stars fans say similar things to what Sabres fans say about Bylsma:

-System sucks.
-In December, their posters were saying he lost the room.
-Too many odd-man rushes against.
-I've seen their analytics bloggers on Twitter bemoaning his usage.
-Mishandling young defensemen - they would go crazy that Jordie Benn would be in the lineup over guys like Johns and Nemeth earlier this season.
-Many have blamed him for Klingberg's regression. Specifically, that Ruff wants him to be a two-way horse rather than allowing him to play to his strengths. (Some may say it's Myers-esque.)

I'm not crapping on Lindy, and I've watched the Stars maybe five times this season, but these are the complaints - in addition to goaltending. Lindy's a good guy, but beyond nostalgia, I don't see any reason to bring him back.

 

[Aladyyn]

Who amended the title to "Bylsma vs Murray"? Doesn't that suggest that it's one or the other who's the problem, but not aspects of both that have us where we are?



A lot of Stars fans say similar things to what Sabres fans say about Bylsma:

-System sucks.
-In December, their posters were saying he lost the room.
-Too many odd-man rushes against.
-I've seen their analytics bloggers on Twitter bemoaning his usage.
-Mishandling young defensemen - they would go crazy that Jordie Benn would be in the lineup over guys like Johns and Nemeth earlier this season.
-Many have blamed him for Klingberg's regression. Specifically, that Ruff wants him to be a two-way horse rather than allowing him to play to his strengths. (Some may say it's Myers-esque.)

I'm not crapping on Lindy, and I've watched the Stars maybe five times this season, but these are the complaints - in addition to goaltending. Lindy's a good guy, but beyond nostalgia, I don't see any reason to bring him back.

Ristolainen-esque, even?

 

[Havok89]

Well I never said. What I did say was I don't see tactics live during games. That's beside the point. Tim Murray employs a guy you think knows nothing about the game. Think about that for a minute. You guys don't understand at all how ridiculous you sound. Everyday I say the same stuff and everyday people get all worked up over it.

How can the same people support Tim Murray when he supports Bylsma? If you cant see my agenda by now then you will never see it. All I read is people calling Bylsma names on here and at the same time defending Murray? How does that make any sense at all.

Does coaching matter? I dont know. There are many things that make me think no. One of them is people saying Bylsma is a doofus, yet no coach had more wins than him during his time in Pittsburgh. Whenever I say that people tell me he had talent, well which is it?

At the end of the day, Bylsma is going to be the guy to take the fall, it won't be Tim Murray. Murray will get another opportunity with a different coach before he's fired, unless of course Bylsma really is his guy.

Is the talent a problem? Absolutely. But let's not forget, Tim Murray inherited a historically bad team. Yet some people are demanding he should be fired for not getting to the playoffs in Eichel's second season.

 

[ZZamboni]

I think it's 80% coaching/20% talent.

There's always a want with any team ... to get more talent.

 

[AustonsNostrils]

Ristolainen-esque, even?

Ristolainen hasn't been mishandled other than being elevated to #1D at a very young age for a dman. He loves it though, Risto isn't Myers. Myers didn't have Risto's confidence, both emotionally and physically and obviously not as physically strong.

 

[Myllz]

How can the same people support Tim Murray when he supports Bylsma? If you cant see my agenda by now then you will never see it. All I read is people calling Bylsma names on here and at the same time defending Murray? How does that make any sense at all.

There have been multiple people (myself included) who have said we will begin to lose support for Murray if he doesn't fire Bylsma. Hiring Dan didn't work out and he should be let go, and that's a correction Murray still has time to make. Nobody's giving Murray a pass for Bylsma, but most people also aren't ready to fire him simply for making the hire, either. If Dan is still coaching this team next season, you'll start seeing Murray have far less supporters.

 

[ZZamboni]

There have been multiple people (myself included) who have said we will begin to lose support for Murray if he doesn't fire Bylsma. Hiring Dan didn't work out and he should be let go, and that's a correction Murray still has time to make. Nobody's giving Murray a pass for Bylsma, but most people also aren't ready to fire him simply for making the hire, either. If Dan is still coaching this team next season, you'll start seeing Murray have far less supporters.

And that's a very reasonable patient approach with Murray. Nothing wrong with that.

Those that want Murray fired going back a month ago and still now, are illogical, impatient fans who want a constant revolving door of hires and fires at the first sign of trouble or rough roads.

I have no doubt IF we landed Babcock instead ... and our record was similar ... we'd have some of those same illogical, impatient fans wanting Babcock fired. And by extension Murray fired too.

I wonder if some handle their own lives like they handle the sports teams they follow.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The thing people don't get with the sabres rebuild is the team completely gutted itself a few years ago. That is rarely done and it takes a long time to build it back up. Sorry, but Toronto or edmonton never gutted their teams like that. Edmonton toiled in ****tiness for awhile and Toronto got just bad enough at the right time and drafted some great players. But the sabres rebuild isn't comparable in any way to those teams, so its annoying to see them brought up and its the lack of patience is annoying as well. Murray has not been building this team up for very long.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

Sabres had their #1 D in place prior to Murray getting here along with the ammo required to trade for RoR. He's been on the job for over 3 years and this is his 4th upcoming draft. He's had plenty of time. Unlike other teams he also works for an owner who is willing to spend unlimited amounts of money. Imagine if Murray didn't have Pegula bucks working for him.

And does anyone else realize that Murrays first draft here is one of the absolute worst we've had in recent history? Outside of our #2 pick in Sam Reinhart (which gets zero credit since it's a no brainer type pick) we will almost assuredly get ZERO NHL regulars out of it. We had 6 picks in the top 74. He drafted Reinhart (no brainer). At 31 he made a massive blunder drafting someone who refused to sign for us, and besides that passed up on Barbashev, Hawryluk and Demko. At least we used Lemieux in the Kane trade. But then he drafts Cornel and Karabacek with early/mid 2nd rounders who are almost definitely not going to be NHL regulars. He drafts Johansson with 61 who is still in Sweden and doesn't look to be breaking in with the Sabres any time soon if at all. If he was willing to draft a goalie at 61, why not draft Demko at 31?? The best goalie prospect in the draft and one who is currently one of the best goalie prospects in the league. Drafting Demko most likely prevents Murray from pissing away a 1st in one of the best drafts of the last 20 years in the 2015 draft for Lehner. He capped it off drafting Martin who is currently in the ECHL and not even good enough to play for a god awful Rochester team.

I get that the draft is a crapshoot past the 1st round but to have 6 players drafted in the top 74 and only get one surefire NHLer and one more who will likely be a bottom 6er is just atrocious. 2014 will be compared to the 2007,2010 and 2011 drafts for us where we only get one full time NHLer out of it. When Murray took over we had one of if not the best prospect pools in the leagues along with a treasure chest of high picks. Murray squandered it all. Murray is like a 16 year old left home alone for the weekend with his parents credit card and their Mercedes in the garage. He gave up 2 3rds for Bylsma and Vesey. This is Murrays last chance. No playoffs next year and he should get fired the day after the season ends. With an unlimited bankroll, the amount of picks and prospects he inherited there should be no reason it takes more then 4 and a half seasons to make the playoffs. When we started the rebuild in earnest in 2012 we thought by 2016/2017 or so we'd have a cup contender in place. Well as of now we aren't anywhere close to even having a playoff team in place. He squandered having 2 high end top 6 players on ELCs. The defense is an absolute wreck. He inherited a franchise that had Risto, Myers,McCabe, Zadorov, Pysyk and McNabb on the blue line. Today it's one of the worst in the league.

If Murray is staying then we might as well keep Bylsma one more year. They should be attached to each other, one should not survive the others firing. The Lehner trade will haunt the Sabres for years. The 2015 draft is the best since 2003. Yeah you know the draft that had several top liners and top pairing dman throughout the entire first and even some in the second round. Konecny, White or Samsonov would be incredible to have instead of Lehner. You can get Lehner type production from a goalie as a UFA or trading a mid round pick for one.

 

[Sabre Dance]

There have been multiple people (myself included) who have said we will begin to lose support for Murray if he doesn't fire Bylsma. Hiring Dan didn't work out and he should be let go, and that's a correction Murray still has time to make. Nobody's giving Murray a pass for Bylsma, but most people also aren't ready to fire him simply for making the hire, either. If Dan is still coaching this team next season, you'll start seeing Murray have far less supporters.

To me the biggest issue is defense. Until we can honestly say the roster is complete I don't think it's fair to get on the coach. The young players seem to be developing well. As much as Eichel dislikes Bylsma he is becoming a complete hockey player under him.

All the talk about systems and is Bylsma the right guy to lead them to a cup should come when the roster is complete. Right now it's all about developing the young players. I don't hear much complaining about the development of our young players.

 

[Aladyyn]

To me the biggest issue is defense. Until we can honestly say the roster is complete I don't think it's fair to get on the coach. The young players seem to be developing well. As much as Eichel dislikes Bylsma he is becoming a complete hockey player under him.

All the talk about systems and is Bylsma the right guy to lead them to a cup should come when the roster is complete. Right now it's all about developing the young players. I don't hear much complaining about the development of our young players.

Players routinely look lost on the ice...

And people complain about the development of our players all the time, did you miss all the outrage about Reinhart playing wing in the past 2 seasons? Do you not care that he's squandering Risto's offensive talent? Do you not care about Girgensons' lacking offensive game?

Crediting Bylsma with Eichel becoming a more complete player? Eichel never said Bylsma helped him in that regard but on numerous occasions pointed out how much he's learning from ROR. So why does Bylsma get the credit when it's one of the reasons ROR was brought in in the first place?

 

[Havok89]

Sabres had their #1 D in place prior to Murray getting here along with the ammo required to trade for RoR. He's been on the job for over 3 years and this is his 4th upcoming draft. He's had plenty of time. Unlike other teams he also works for an owner who is willing to spend unlimited amounts of money. Imagine if Murray didn't have Pegula bucks working for him.

And does anyone else realize that Murrays first draft here is one of the absolute worst we've had in recent history? Outside of our #2 pick in Sam Reinhart (which gets zero credit since it's a no brainer type pick) we will almost assuredly get ZERO NHL regulars out of it. We had 6 picks in the top 74. He drafted Reinhart (no brainer). At 31 he made a massive blunder drafting someone who refused to sign for us, and besides that passed up on Barbashev, Hawryluk and Demko. At least we used Lemieux in the Kane trade. But then he drafts Cornel and Karabacek with early/mid 2nd rounders who are almost definitely not going to be NHL regulars. He drafts Johansson with 61 who is still in Sweden and doesn't look to be breaking in with the Sabres any time soon if at all. If he was willing to draft a goalie at 61, why not draft Demko at 31?? The best goalie prospect in the draft and one who is currently one of the best goalie prospects in the league. Drafting Demko most likely prevents Murray from pissing away a 1st in one of the best drafts of the last 20 years in the 2015 draft for Lehner. He capped it off drafting Martin who is currently in the ECHL and not even good enough to play for a god awful Rochester team.

I get that the draft is a crapshoot past the 1st round but to have 6 players drafted in the top 74 and only get one surefire NHLer and one more who will likely be a bottom 6er is just atrocious. 2014 will be compared to the 2007,2010 and 2011 drafts for us where we only get one full time NHLer out of it. When Murray took over we had one of if not the best prospect pools in the leagues along with a treasure chest of high picks. Murray squandered it all. Murray is like a 16 year old left home alone for the weekend with his parents credit card and their Mercedes in the garage. He gave up 2 3rds for Bylsma and Vesey. This is Murrays last chance. No playoffs next year and he should get fired the day after the season ends. With an unlimited bankroll, the amount of picks and prospects he inherited there should be no reason it takes more then 4 and a half seasons to make the playoffs. When we started the rebuild in earnest in 2012 we thought by 2016/2017 or so we'd have a cup contender in place. Well as of now we aren't anywhere close to even having a playoff team in place. He squandered having 2 high end top 6 players on ELCs. The defense is an absolute wreck. He inherited a franchise that had Risto, Myers,McCabe, Zadorov, Pysyk and McNabb on the blue line. Today it's one of the worst in the league.

If Murray is staying then we might as well keep Bylsma one more year. They should be attached to each other, one should not survive the others firing. The Lehner trade will haunt the Sabres for years. The 2015 draft is the best since 2003. Yeah you know the draft that had several top liners and top pairing dman throughout the entire first and even some in the second round. Konecny, White or Samsonov would be incredible to have instead of Lehner. You can get Lehner type production from a goalie as a UFA or trading a mid round pick for one.

What the ****?