Player Discussion Ryan Spooner Part V

[RedeyeRocketeer]

He completely misused Spooner, playing him on the wing or on the 4th line. He belongs at center; this is where his talents ( speed and playmaking) are best served. Just because he is weak at faceoffs, dosen't mean he can't play center. Julien's treatment of him and some of our other talented young players was shameful at times compared to the lifetime of free passes he would give to the vets.

Disagree entirely. If he was half-competent in his own zone and could be trusted to check other team's 1-2-3's down the middle of the ice, then ok, I'm willing to shrug off the low FO%. But if he does not have that tool in his tool box, he's got to be able to win a faceoff. Think about actual in game situations. You're hemmed in and already outmatched on an icing. Your line is already at a disadvantage defensively. What is the most useful thing you can do to get yourself out of that jam? WIN A FACEOFF.

The game has far too much parity and the good teams have far too good 1-2-3's for us to be able to survive with a line that can't defend or win a faceoff. In the playoffs in 90 minute wars that will be exposed.

Is problem.

 

[BNHL]

Disagree entirely. If he was half-competent in his own zone and could be trusted to check other team's 1-2-3's down the middle of the ice, then ok, I'm willing to shrug off the low FO%. But if he does not have that tool in his tool box, he's got to be able to win a faceoff. Think about actual in game situations. You're hemmed in and already outmatched on an icing. Your line is already at a disadvantage defensively. What is the most useful thing you can do to get yourself out of that jam? WIN A FACEOFF.

The game has far too much parity and the good teams have far too good 1-2-3's for us to be able to survive with a line that can't defend or win a faceoff. In the playoffs in 90 minute wars that will be exposed.

Is problem.

Faceoff importance is grossly exaggerated with relationship to wins,losses and goals. Something like 1 in every 1000 faceoffs is directly related to a goal within 20 seconds. A team takes about 5000 a season.

 

[Tampbear]

I think Spooner was perhaps pushed a little too much to fit Julien's system, his production under Cassidy shows this. I also believe Spooner is a better player today because of lessons learned under Claude. I don't think Spooner is a finished product either. Spooner is a great secondary scorer for us, and has the ability to become more. I don't see any kids on the cusp of making it nearly as skilled as Spooner, and the folks ahead of him are much older. Spooner provides something on this team we are lacking in offensive creativity in our bottom 6 and it would be nice if he could atleast be appreciated for that. Spooner isn't perfect certainly, he would be a 1st line player if he was strong on the puck and good in his own end, as it is he makes our pp dangerous and helps provide us with 3 scoring lines.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Faceoff importance is grossly exaggerated with relationship to wins,losses and goals. Something like 1 in every 1000 faceoffs is directly related to a goal within 20 seconds. A team takes about 5000 a season.

at the same time where theres around 3600 seconds in a game and only around 5 goals... that means a goal only happens around once every 700 seconds to begin with

suddenly a small tilt in the likelihood that a goal might be scored in the next 20 seconds becomes a big deal

and its not so crazy that real nhl coaches consider this extremely important strategy... assign icetime... call timeouts...

theres been quite a few guys over the years that earned million dollar paychecks as 4th line centers with almost no other skill other than winning faceoffs.

I doubt that its grossly exaggerated. I am not an analytic person and have no idea where you got your numbers... but I sort of think that the analytics shows how important faceoffs are

now if you wanted to debate with me how centers get all the blame/credit when really the teams wingers can play a major influence then I would probably be on your side.

there are some center that just get beat clean all the time... but most centers are able to tie up the face off half the time and if their wingers are effective they can win around half their draws with the help

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Disagree entirely. If he was half-competent in his own zone and could be trusted to check other team's 1-2-3's down the middle of the ice, then ok, I'm willing to shrug off the low FO%. But if he does not have that tool in his tool box, he's got to be able to win a faceoff. Think about actual in game situations. You're hemmed in and already outmatched on an icing. Your line is already at a disadvantage defensively. What is the most useful thing you can do to get yourself out of that jam? WIN A FACEOFF.

The game has far too much parity and the good teams have far too good 1-2-3's for us to be able to survive with a line that can't defend or win a faceoff. In the playoffs in 90 minute wars that will be exposed.

Is problem.

I'm reminded of a favorite ron Wilson quote from his time managing phil kessel in Toronto. at the time Toronto needed a number 1 center in the worst way. the reporter asks ron what about phil? ron says he talked to phil about it and phil told him he didn't want to play the defense required to be a center.

loved the interview because of how brutally honest it was throwing phil under the bus... but it just goes to show even when Toronto was desperate for a center and even when phil is much much much more skilled than spooner and even when Toronto had no chance to make the playoffs anyhow... a coach still doesn't put a guy in at center unless he can and will play defense

 

[SPLBRUIN]

awful on the dot and struggles with responsibilities that come with being a centerman in his own zone, that hasn`t changed under Cassidy.

Yet Cassidy deems that Spooner's assets outweigh his negatives. I'm sure that Spooner's confidence over the years with CJ has taken a pretty big hit, glad that Cassidy is showing Spoons the love.

 

[PlayMakers]

I think the Bruins have scored at least 16 goals off faceoff plays this year. They're very good at it.

That's 10% of their offense, and pro-rates to 21 goals on the season.

That doesn't have value?

...

With regard to Spooner... Fwiw, I like him, always have, but I think the criticisms of him are fair. I also don't think Spooner is getting any more rope under Cassidy. He played 11:27 the other night (he was averaging almost 15 before). And Cassidy has started using Hayes to take draws.

 

[BNHL]

]I think the Bruins have scored at least 16 goals off faceoff plays this year. They're very good at it.[/B]

That's 10% of their offense, and pro-rates to 21 goals on the season.

That doesn't have value?

...

With regard to Spooner... Fwiw, I like him, always have, but I think the criticisms of him are fair. I also don't think Spooner is getting any more rope under Cassidy. He played 11:27 the other night (he was averaging almost 15 before). And Cassidy has started using Hayes to take draws.

One study that looked at every faceoff for 3 years showed a max of 12 goals within 20 secs of a faceoff. That would account for about 3 wins. Most faceoff/goal relationships are weak at best,especially since most teams are about the 50% mark. It's an old belief that statistical analysis is now casting lots of doubt upon.

 

[BNHL]

at the same time where theres around 3600 seconds in a game and only around 5 goals... that means a goal only happens around once every 700 seconds to begin with

suddenly a small tilt in the likelihood that a goal might be scored in the next 20 seconds becomes a big deal

and its not so crazy that real nhl coaches consider this extremely important strategy... assign icetime... call timeouts...

theres been quite a few guys over the years that earned million dollar paychecks as 4th line centers with almost no other skill other than winning faceoffs.

I doubt that its grossly exaggerated. I am not an analytic person and have no idea where you got your numbers... but I sort of think that the analytics shows how important faceoffs are

now if you wanted to debate with me how centers get all the blame/credit when really the teams wingers can play a major influence then I would probably be on your side.

there are some center that just get beat clean all the time... but most centers are able to tie up the face off half the time and if their wingers are effective they can win around half their draws with the help

Just google it,there are several studies,peruse them. No more need to repeat what we think. I would add that I would handpick who took my faceoffs in the defensive zone,but it's no reason to add or subtract a player,the numbers just don't support it.

 

[BNHL]

Here's one link . http://statsportsconsulting.com/main/wp-content/uploads/FaceoffAnalysis12-12.pdf

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Faceoff importance is grossly exaggerated with relationship to wins,losses and goals. Something like 1 in every 1000 faceoffs is directly related to a goal within 20 seconds. A team takes about 5000 a season.

Faceoff wins lead to possession. More possession, better chance to win.

Most turnovers don't result in goals either, doesn't mean they aren't important.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm reminded of a favorite ron Wilson quote from his time managing phil kessel in Toronto. at the time Toronto needed a number 1 center in the worst way. the reporter asks ron what about phil? ron says he talked to phil about it and phil told him he didn't want to play the defense required to be a center.

loved the interview because of how brutally honest it was throwing phil under the bus... but it just goes to show even when Toronto was desperate for a center and even when phil is much much much more skilled than spooner and even when Toronto had no chance to make the playoffs anyhow... a coach still doesn't put a guy in at center unless he can and will play defense

Yep, the days of Gretzky & Mario are long gone.

 

[BNHL]

Top 10 faceoffs

Anaheim
Colorado
Boston
Detroit
Carolina
Minnesota
Van
Philly
Ottawa
LA

Bottom 10
Tampa
Chi
Arizona
Columbus
SJ
NYR
Fla
Pitts
Winn
Edm

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Top 10 faceoffs

Anaheim
Colorado
Boston
Detroit
Carolina
Minnesota
Van
Philly
Ottawa
LA

Bottom 10
Tampa
Chi
Arizona
Columbus
SJ
NYR
Fla
Pitts
Winn
Edm

Its an outlier season for faceoff success.

 

[BNHL]

Its an outlier season for faceoff success.

You should look at last year for 2.

Actually,one study could only find a weak relationship between possession and wins. You need opportunistic goal scoring.

 

[since76]

Spooner is -4 , backes 6 millions man is -6
Use all bla bla bla stats and % faceoff as you want it mean nothing in real life
Backes is more lot more a problem than Sponner

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You should look at last year for 2.

Actually,one study could only find a weak relationship between possession and wins. You need opportunistic goal scoring.

Correct, I should have.

When one assumes.....

 

[BNHL]

Correct, I should have.

When one assumes.....

For me,it means way too much criticism of Spooner based on ES faceoffs that are now being shown to be largely meaningless.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

For me,it means way too much criticism of Spooner based on ES faceoffs that are now being shown to be largely meaningless.

I don't think anyone involved in the game (at that level) considers faceoffs meaningless. However, in terms of Spooner criticism, perhaps you have something.

 

[Blowfish]

Top 10 faceoffs

Anaheim
Colorado
Boston
Detroit
Carolina
Minnesota
Van
Philly
Ottawa
LA

Bottom 10
Tampa
Chi
Arizona
Columbus
SJ
NYR
Fla
Pitts
Winn
Edm

"Yikes that can't be right" - Claude Julien

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Faceoff importance is grossly exaggerated with relationship to wins,losses and goals. Something like 1 in every 1000 faceoffs is directly related to a goal within 20 seconds. A team takes about 5000 a season.

I disagree. Faceoffs has alot to do with puck posession, therefore with game momentum. Ask CJ in Montreal if he misses Bergeron and DK? If something... faceoffs will not everything is underrated on most panels.

 

[PlayMakers]

One study that looked at every faceoff for 3 years showed a max of 12 goals within 20 secs of a faceoff. That would account for about 3 wins. Most faceoff/goal relationships are weak at best,especially since most teams are about the 50% mark. It's an old belief that statistical analysis is now casting lots of doubt upon.

I don't think that article (or other like it) casts much doubt on the value of faceoffs with actual hockey people.

Coaches, from the NHL to NCAA still place a premium on winning draws. They go out of their way to get the right matchups and their best FO guys on the ice in certain situations. They spend valuable practice time working on set plays they can run... And the Bruins this year have shown tremendous success at scoring off face-off plays. As do the Rangers and Pens.

Personally, I've read a few of those articles and I always come away feeling like there are holes in the argument. For example, a draw won by Marchand, Bergeron and Pastrnak has a much higher chance of generating a goal than a draw won by the Moore/Nash line. But that data doesn't distinguish between the two, they lump them together and the results kind of wash each other out.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Spooner is -4 , backes 6 millions man is -6
Use all bla bla bla stats and % faceoff as you want it mean nothing in real life
Backes is more lot more a problem than Sponner

Don't know which one between Backes and Spooner or what exactly could be Bruins biggest problem But Base on +- DK at 7millions is more a problem than Spooner!,, based on your comment.

 

[LSCII]

Man, the Stockholm syndrome here runs deep. All these overstated beliefs about face off winning percentages and having to be a 200 foot player just to get on the ice. Claude is gone guys. You can actually be okay rooting for a guy that's main focus is an offensive game. Not everyone has to be a grinding, defensive minded player. It's okay.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Man, the Stockholm syndrome here runs deep. All these overstated beliefs about face off winning percentages and having to be a 200 foot player just to get on the ice. Claude is gone guys. You can actually be okay rooting for a guy that's main focus is an offensive game. Not everyone has to be a grinding, defensive minded player. It's okay.

??

Well if you are only good offensively you will need someone to grind the puck out of d zone. If your are only good at defense, you will need a guy to help put the puck in the net. So yes a player capable of playing from one end to another is helpful.... with or without Julien, like it or not.