Player Discussion Ryan Reaves and Calle Jarnkrok

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Could be, but outside his FOTY against Rempe, for what that's worth, I only recall him getting beat up by the heavyweights.

Wouldn't wager money against Reavo, *Looch, MacD, Ross Boss, DLo, Mcllrath, Wilson, Marcus F, Schenn, Lowry, Big Z, Seeler,. Maybe Jackeye, Middleton, McCabe, Gud, Manson, Jeannot?

But you never know.

Lowry and Seeler are underrated for sure. Both good fighters. Lucic is done unfortunately. All he is good for now is domestic violence. The rest are the next tier below. Jennot is another one who who doesn't protect himself enough when he fights. He learns how to do that he will be better fighter.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

Honestly I don't see it that way at all. A new coaching staff coming in will want to establish it's own system and identity. Now I know what many people are going to say is that is exactly why it will be an open competition which is wrong. In fact it will be the exact opposite. Tre would have removed any player he did not want the new coaching staff to work with( Robertson being the exception). After that there would have been discussions about all the returning players like Jarnkok and Reaves and thier roles moving forward. Some players will have short leashes but it will not be pre-season short unless it's a deal that Tre cannot pass up. I say this as a Fix it manger for almost 30 years. This was always how it starts. Now that's not saying some guy like Jarnkok completely rejects what Berube is installing and wants out (highly unlikely) but this is how it works. Especially if you are changing culture which the Leafs are trying to do.

The only player I see having a true shot at making it on the roster out of camp is Cowan if he shows he can be a 2PK foward and a 3rd line winger. This is only because of Robertson's asking for a trade and contract status being up in the air. IF Robertson had been signed by now then Cowan has no shot. The bottom 6 will be as follows if Domi is on the wing.

McMann- Holmberg-Jarnkok
Dewar- Kampf-Reaves

13th forward Robertson or Cowan to fill in on the 3rd line with Reaves sitting.

For everyone sleeping on Dewar he did score 12 goals last year as a 4th liner and he was the 2nd best foward on the PK. Behind Goodrow. So he is not going anywhere.

Now this is the opening day roster not the playoff roster. I can see just like everyone else that the bottom 6 is too light to be effective in the playoffs so I see at least 2 trades happening to make the bottom 6 heavier. Maybe it is trades to bring in bottom 6 players or its trades to push down a player in the top 6. That is hard to predict before the regular season as we have to see who is selling.

Well put. I haven't been this excited to follow a training camp since the Carlyle Days.

 

[BlackAdam]

Lol at people thinking a coaching change is gonna suddenly change ryan reaves. The guy is turning 38.
But seriously is there not 25 other better forwards in the Leafs organization that can play over Reaves in the lineup?

 

[Funk21]

I would prefer Domi in the top 6 too, but if you put him there then who is your #3 center?

That's why I think you see McMann start in the top 6.

I move Domi to 3RW with Minten as the C. Have McMann on LW to add some more defensive prowess. Domi can swap in and out of the draw if needed as he has proven he is good at it. Domi is pretty creative player too.

My three lines would be this provided both Minten and Cowan make the team:

Knies AM Marner
Cowan JT Nylander
McMann Minten Domi

 

[Stephen]

Lol at people thinking a coaching change is gonna suddenly change ryan reaves. The guy is turning 38.
But seriously is there not 25 other better forwards in the Leafs organization that can play over Reaves in the lineup?

Reaves is terrible at playing hockey but brings a specialized toolset 25 other Leafs can’t bring and creates a positive impact when he does his job in a way that a generic 4th liner like Aston-Reese, Aube-Kubel, Gregor can’t. So it’s a trade off.

 

[IPS]

Reaves is terrible at playing hockey but brings a specialized toolset 25 other Leafs can’t bring and creates a positive impact when he does his job in a way that a generic 4th liner like Aston-Reese, Aube-Kubel, Gregor can’t. So it’s a trade off.

Reaves isn't brought in to be good at hockey, he's brought in to make the opposing teams scared of being injured when he's on the ice. His game undoubtedly brings a positive impact in the playoffs as much as people don't want to acknowledge it.

How come the Bruins weren't so willing to engage in the dirty warfare they did in 2018 and 2019 this go around? Try that against the Leafs last series and next shift Reaves is gonna be out there trying to decapitate one of your players.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I move Domi to 3RW with Minten as the C. Have McMann on LW to add some more defensive prowess. Domi can swap in and out of the draw if needed as he has proven he is good at it. Domi is pretty creative player too.

My three lines would be this provided both Minten and Cowan make the team:

Knies AM Marner
Cowan JT Nylander
McMann Minten Domi

Cowan in the top 6 right away? I'm not sure about that, but no question that would solve a lot.

 

[Stephen]

Reaves isn't brought in to be good at hockey, he's brought in to make the opposing teams scared of being injured when he's on the ice. His game undoubtedly brings a positive impact in the playoffs as much as people don't want to acknowledge it.

How come the Bruins weren't so willing to engage in the dirty warfare they did in 2018 and 2019 this go around? Try that against the Leafs last series and next shift Reaves is gonna be out there trying to decapitate one of your players.

Yeah exactly. He makes an impact via intimidation and physical pain. Which is more of a factor than a replacement level shift by a generic replacement level player. But he can also have a bad stretch like last October where he was just unplayable. He’s a specialized skillset like I said.

 

[notbias]

Reaves isn't brought in to be good at hockey, he's brought in to make the opposing teams scared of being injured when he's on the ice. His game undoubtedly brings a positive impact in the playoffs as much as people don't want to acknowledge it.

No one is scared of Reaves...



Here is a lovely play where both him and Edmundson go for a hit, are overly aggressive and end up costing us a goal within 3 mins of the first game after controlling play the entire time.

How come the Bruins weren't so willing to engage in the dirty warfare they did in 2018 and 2019 this go around? Try that against the Leafs last series and next shift Reaves is gonna be out there trying to decapitate one of your players.

Nothing to do with Reaves... not the same team as before.

Reaves did nothing when Marchand was dirty.

This is all fantasy.

 

[Racer88]

No one is scared of Reaves...



Here is a lovely play where both him and Edmundson go for a hit, are overly aggressive and end up costing us a goal within 3 mins of the first game after controlling play the entire time.



Nothing to do with Reaves... not the same team as before.

Reaves did nothing when Marchand was dirty.

This is all fantasy.

I bet Marner is scared of him. Lol

 

[shaner8989]

There is zero place on this team for Reaves. He’s beyond terrible at hockey.

Jarnkrok also provides next to nothing and his cap hit is very high.

No need for either. Clear some spots for the kids coming in…. Grebyonkin, Cowan, Minten etc

 

[notbias]

There is zero place on this team for Reaves. He’s beyond terrible at hockey.

Jarnkrok also provides next to nothing and his cap hit is very high.

No need for either. Clear some spots for the kids coming in…. Grebyonkin, Cowan, Minten etc

Janrkok is good defensively and can chip in here and there offensively, he has a spot, but agreed, I am also fine giving the kids a shot.

Ideally Dewar + Reaves don't start opening night and you have a 4th line of Holmberg - Kampf - Jankrok, I think that line could be a great shutdown line with the ability to score here and there.

Give Cowan, Greb, or Minten a look, and give Robertson a roster spot to see his actual worth.

 

[Dekes For Days]

No one is scared of Reaves...

Here is a lovely play where both him and Edmundson go for a hit, are overly aggressive and end up costing us a goal within 3 mins of the first game after controlling play the entire time.

Yep. There are 3 Reaves experiences.

The first one is 95% of Reaves, and it's him trying to play hockey. He is garbage at this, and it hurts the team.
The second one is 4% of Reaves, and it's him attempting Reaves things and failing like the clip above. These hurt the team; sometimes quite massively and directly, like allowing an odd man rush for the 1st goal of a series.
The third one is 1% of Reaves, and it's him laying a big hit or fighting.

Now some people really really like seeing things go boom, and thus they try to pretend that the 3rd version of Reaves is not only beneficial to the team's chances of winning, but somehow makes up for the other 99% where Reaves is actively hurting the team.

Not only is that ridiculous, but it's also really questionable how much positive impact #3 actually even has. Can it provide a marginal energy boost to the team (like many other things also can)? Yes, sometimes. But most of the time, it's going to have a negligible impact, and sometimes, it can wake up or boost the opposing team instead. It's not automatically a positive for your team, even if you are the one initiating the carnage. Exciting does not automatically mean beneficial.

The clip of Reaves you showed resulted in a pretty significant goal against. The clips that you're replying to, of Reaves making a big hit, don't seem to result in anything. The only team to score a goal in the period those hits happened is Boston. In game 3, we technically manage to score the next goal, but it's like 40 minutes later when any energy boost would be gone, and we lose that game anyway. Pastrnak getting wrecked in that clip didn't seem to intimidate or scare him away from scoring the series-winning goal against us.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

I'm just seriously wondering if there's any other D or Scrappers on the cheap.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Reaves was, by far, the worst player on both teams last game.

Calling him a shitty hockey player would be an insult to the actual hockey players who are only just shitty. Reaves stinks to high heaven and back. But for some reason a cup contender needs a useless turd who can't do anything hockey on the team.

They should try and find an even bigger sucker to unload him on.

I doubt there's a taker. The market for an overpaid bum from a cap strapped team looking to dump salary is never good. The sad fact of the matter is there's more than one dumb GM in the league.

But only one dumb enough to have Reaves on the team.

I hear he's great in the locker room though. They need a guy like that. Someone to smooth adversity among teammates during rough patches when the team isn't playing well.

Poor play that same locker room glue guy was largely responsible for.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Janrkok is good defensively and can chip in here and there offensively, he has a spot, but agreed, I am also fine giving the kids a shot.

Ideally Dewar + Reaves don't start opening night and you have a 4th line of Holmberg - Kampf - Jankrok, I think that line could be a great shutdown line with the ability to score here and there.

Give Cowan, Greb, or Minten a look, and give Robertson a roster spot to see his actual worth.

Not sure I agree with Jarnkok over Dewar. Second best PK forward in the league last year (Dewar) paid 1 million less or 3 goals more Iron hook for another million. I think a 4th line of Dewar-Kampf-Lorentz has a chance to be a good shut down line. Holmberg riding shootgun with Willy makes far more sense to me.

Do you know how many rookies were on the last 3 stanley cup champs? None. If the kids are in then the finals are out.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Do you know how many rookies were on the last 3 stanley cup champs? None. If the kids are in then the finals are out.

Colorado had Byram and Newhook. Tampa had Ross Colton the year before.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Colorado had Byram and Newhook. Tampa had Ross Colton the year before.

Newhook and Byram both played games in the NHL the year before. I said 3 year not 4 but there you go 1 true rookie in 4 years. Everyone wants Kampf, Jarnkok, and Liljegren gone for pure rookies in Cowan, Grebenkin and Minten which is a step backwards.The point is if you want the stanley cup you cannot get there with a pile of rookies and second year players

 

[hamzarocks]

Kampf + Jarnkrok + reeves need to not be leafs in the playoffs

We need a 3C upgrade (bjugstad, frost, laughton, etc) + Tverberg/Greb to become a great bottom 6 player for this team to have a good/capable bottom 6 come playoffs

 

[Dekes For Days]

Newhook and Byram both played games in the NHL the year before.

Newhook played only 14 games prior to that year, and Byram played only 19 (and had 49 total GP when the cup-winning playoffs started). Hardly seems like a big difference.

Everyone wants Kampf, Jarnkok, and Liljegren gone for pure rookies in Cowan, Grebenkin and Minten which is a step backwards. The point is if you want the stanley cup you cannot get there with a pile of rookies and second year players

I don't necessarily think replacing a bunch of established players with rookies is a good idea, but you can absolutely win a cup with a couple rookies and/or second year players.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Newhook played only 14 games prior to that year, and Byram played only 19 (and had 49 total GP when the cup-winning playoffs started). Hardly seems like a big difference.

I don't necessarily think replacing a bunch of established players with rookies is a good idea, but you can absolutely win a cup with a couple rookies and/or second year players.

2nd year players yes. More than one true rookie playing a full season then no.

Newhook played half of the playoff games on that cup run on the 4th line. Byram was on the bottom pairing and both played in the NHL the year before. Having rookies play in the top 6 and/or replacing PK veterans is a good way to go backwards.
This doesn't mean I don't think the Leafs need to move on from the Jarnkok or Robertson type players because they do. They need to get heavier especially in the bottom 6. Lorentz is a good start but they need at least 2 more. could one be Grebenkin in a very limited role. This team is as close as it ever has been in a very long time to being a cup favorite. Add a Theodore type Dman and the 2 "heavy" forwards and this team is right there.

 

[Racer88]

Newhook and Byram both played games in the NHL the year before. I said 3 year not 4 but there you go 1 true rookie in 4 years. Everyone wants Kampf, Jarnkok, and Liljegren gone for pure rookies in Cowan, Grebenkin and Minten which is a step backwards.The point is if you want the stanley cup you cannot get there with a pile of rookies and second year players

Apparently we can’t get there with the core 5 we have and we have 7 years of evidence. So there’s that

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Apparently we can’t get there with the core 5 we have and we have 7 years of evidence. So there’s that

So the answer is get rid of players that are not the Core 5 and play rookies in roles they are not ready for? Even if it becomes 8 years of failure or one year of success the "Core 5" will not be in place after this year. But the Leafs will have over 30 million to spend to make more changes.

 

[Dekes For Days]

2nd year players yes. More than one true rookie playing a full season then no. Newhook played half of the playoff games on that cup run on the 4th line. Byram was on the bottom pairing and both played in the NHL the year before. Having rookies play in the top 6 and/or replacing PK veterans is a good way to go backwards.
This doesn't mean I don't think the Leafs need to move on from the Jarnkok or Robertson type players because they do. They need to get heavier especially in the bottom 6. Lorentz is a good start but they need at least 2 more. could one be Grebenkin in a very limited role. This team is as close as it ever has been in a very long time to being a cup favorite. Add a Theodore type Dman and the 2 "heavy" forwards and this team is right there.

You're switching between criteria a lot. No rookies... No rookies or second year players... Second year players that are essentially rookies are fine but no more than one "true" rookie... No rookies playing top-six... No rookies playing PK... Etc. When in truth, there is no criteria. Cup winners can have rookies. They have can have second year players. They can have rookies playing top-six, or PK, or anything. If a rookie is a better option, then a rookie is a better option. It doesn't prevent making the finals or having success.

Byram was the 3rd most played defenseman on Colorado's run, for the record, and had less than a year of games when the playoffs started. Over the past 15 years, 41 rookies have played 597 playoff games for cup-winners, including top-six forwards, top-four defensemen, starting goalies, PKers, etc. They have played as many as 26 playoff games in a run, scored as much as 21 points, and averaged as much as 19:32 in ice time.

We don't need to get heavier, but we would like to get better and get back to the level of contender we were a couple years ago. If there are options available to us to do that and make us better, we should take them, regardless of a player's status.

 

[Racer88]

So the answer is get rid of players that are not the Core 5 and play rookies in roles they are not ready for? Even if it becomes 8 years of failure or one year of success the "Core 5" will not be in place after this year. But the Leafs will have over 30 million to spend to make more changes.

So the answer is get rid of players that are not the Core 5 and play rookies in roles they are not ready for? Even if it becomes 8 years of failure or one year of success the "Core 5" will not be in place after this year. But the Leafs will have over 30 million to spend to make more changes.

I never said any of that. I’m simply pointing out that the 5 core members have not won a single thing and we see no evidence that if we surround them with yet another gaggle of older/ over the hill or underperforming supporter cast will have any more chance to win. So in short as long as the core is intact and the cap is structured what we have seen is what we will get