Speculation: Ryan Johansen "Softly in play"

[SuperGenius]

I strongly disagree with the notion that moving RyJo, who will be a major problem in his next contract negotiation, should stop people from supporting the team. A player as enigmatic as RyJo should never come before the team.

I don't think you trade guys because the negotiation will be 'tough'. That's why Jarmo gets paid the big bucks. I would hope that he would rather negotiate and fail than give the guy up to avoid even trying. Failure, in this case is a one year arbitrated deal, not loss of the player - which I think is an important consideration.

Whatever is going on, I suspect more is being made of it than necessary, particularly among fans. Porty's been casually feeding the Torts v. Johansen narrative since they brought in the new coach, though, and I think other media are picking up on that. I don't doubt that there's an attitude adjustment in process and I certainly understand that there's work to be done if this marriage is to work.

However, I mean what I say about trading him and my consideration of continued support of this organization. This team spent its entire history looking for a true #1 C and if they piss that away in a manner I'm not satisfied with, I have every right to question what they're doing and if I should continue supporting them.

I love hockey, this team and this town and all are above a single player. Yet if you cannot manage a player or a situation like this (whatever it is) without dumping a guy like #19 then what faith should I have that this organization will ever succeed?

 

[EspenK]

I love hockey, this team and this town and all are above a single player. Yet if you cannot manage a player or a situation like this (whatever it is) without dumping a guy like #19 then what faith should I have that this organization will ever succeed?

Boston dumped Thornton...Boston won a Cup. Just sayin'.

 

[Viqsi]

Okay Viqsi, what's the latest on Seth Jones?

He's doing better this year. It'd almost be worth it, except that we have two possible #1Ds in the system (Murray and Werenski) and NO possible #1Cs in the system.

* * *​

There are less #1 centers in the league than there are teams. Dealing Johansen would be the dumbest thing this franchise has ever done - and that's really saying something. Something like this would make me seriously question if I could continue to support this organization.

Question, hell. If Dr. Evil deals Johansen, unless he massively rips off the other team I cease to be a Jackets fan. I am not willing to wait another twelve years.

* * *​

This seems to me the simple explanation.

I hope so, but I don't have sufficient faith in this front office any more to really believe it.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Boston dumped Thornton...Boston won a Cup. Just sayin'.

Five years later, and with absolutely none of the involved players being on the roster.

Here's how it shook out.

November 30, 2005
To SJ - Joe Thornton
To BOS - Marco Sturm, Brad Stuart, and Wayne Primeau (just an awful return overall)

February 10, 2007
To CGY - Brad Stuart, Wayne Primeau
To BOS - Chuck Kobasew, Andrew Ference

October 18, 2009
To MIN - Chuck Kobasew
To BOS - Craig Weller, Alexander Fallstrom, 2011 2nd-rounder

December 11, 2010
To LA - Marco Sturm
To BOS - Future considerations

The only player around at all on Boston's Cup team that was remotely involved in the Thornton trade was Andrew Ference. And if you've given up all those years of Thornton and basically get that little to show for it, you've failed.

 

[Mayor Bee]

I don't think you trade guys because the negotiation will be 'tough'. That's why Jarmo gets paid the big bucks. I would hope that he would rather negotiate and fail than give the guy up to avoid even trying. Failure, in this case is a one year arbitrated deal, not loss of the player - which I think is an important consideration.

Whatever is going on, I suspect more is being made of it than necessary, particularly among fans. Porty's been casually feeding the Torts v. Johansen narrative since they brought in the new coach, though, and I think other media are picking up on that. I don't doubt that there's an attitude adjustment in process and I certainly understand that there's work to be done if this marriage is to work.

However, I mean what I say about trading him and my consideration of continued support of this organization. This team spent its entire history looking for a true #1 C and if they piss that away in a manner I'm not satisfied with, I have every right to question what they're doing and if I should continue supporting them.

I love hockey, this team and this town and all are above a single player. Yet if you cannot manage a player or a situation like this (whatever it is) without dumping a guy like #19 then what faith should I have that this organization will ever succeed?

I can also remember when Tortorella took over a team that had a young core, with a superlatively talented but occasionally lazy #1 center who was just starting to break through. And in their first year together, it looked like that center took a big step backwards after what looked like clashes with the coach, causing a lot of questions about whether he was a long-term solution and whether he had enough heart and tenacity to ever amount to anything in the NHL.

I can't imagine how Tampa would have looked without Lecavalier for all of those years. For one thing, they would have been giving him away for pennies on the dollar. And for another, he went from 20-17-37 in his first year under Tortorella to 33-45-78 in his second, to 32-34-66 in his third year (the Cup year), to 35-40-75 the fourth year, to 52-56-108 the fifth year. And along the way, he added enough to the other parts of his game to actually become one of the best players in the game instead of simply having the potential to become so.

That's what I don't like about this talk. Yes, it's entirely possible to be too patient with a young prospect or a young player. Yes, it can be a bad idea to put up with more crap than you think a player should give. Yes, it can be a huge headache to deal with the ego of a young star player. But holy hell, everyone bemoans the loss of Voracek, who when he was traded had shown about half of what Johansen has shown so far. Does no one see any parallels here?

 

[EspenK]

Five years later, and with absolutely none of the involved players being on the roster.

Here's how it shook out.

November 30, 2005
To SJ - Joe Thornton
To BOS - Marco Sturm, Brad Stuart, and Wayne Primeau (just an awful return overall)

February 10, 2007
To CGY - Brad Stuart, Wayne Primeau
To BOS - Chuck Kobasew, Andrew Ference

October 18, 2009
To MIN - Chuck Kobasew
To BOS - Craig Weller, Alexander Fallstrom, 2011 2nd-rounder

December 11, 2010
To LA - Marco Sturm
To BOS - Future considerations

The only player around at all on Boston's Cup team that was remotely involved in the Thornton trade was Andrew Ference. And if you've given up all those years of Thornton and basically get that little to show for it, you've failed.

Wasn't saying the trade was good - just pointing out that an organization can succeed even after trading away a #1 C.

 

[JacketsDavid]

The team will have info none of us will - how hard does RYJO work, does he put the work in, etc.
If the team decides that he is talented but maybe not the right guy they will have to evaluate the options - can he work on his weak areas, will bringing in different tam mates change him, etc.
I have no problem with shopping every player. Now if we give him away then yeah I get ticked. But let's be honest with him (and a fairly talented roster) we're not very good. So if we want to roll the dice I'm ok with it. Doesn't mean trading him for a 30 year old career 2nd line player but if you could get the right package back - then why not? Again in my mind it means getting a top pairing d-man (before, at their prime) or even a younger player with an immense upside (regardless of position).

 

[major major]

I wouldn't trade him just for the sake of trading him, but i do think the Jackets would be a better hockey team with Jones+ than with Johansen.

 

[CBJSlash]

Before this goes off the rails a clear line should be drawn between "listening" and "considering moving". These are not the same thing. I think all that has been reported is "listening".

 

[Viqsi]

Five years later, and with absolutely none of the involved players being on the roster.

Here's how it shook out.

November 30, 2005
To SJ - Joe Thornton
To BOS - Marco Sturm, Brad Stuart, and Wayne Primeau (just an awful return overall)

February 10, 2007
To CGY - Brad Stuart, Wayne Primeau
To BOS - Chuck Kobasew, Andrew Ference

October 18, 2009
To MIN - Chuck Kobasew
To BOS - Craig Weller, Alexander Fallstrom, 2011 2nd-rounder

December 11, 2010
To LA - Marco Sturm
To BOS - Future considerations

The only player around at all on Boston's Cup team that was remotely involved in the Thornton trade was Andrew Ference. And if you've given up all those years of Thornton and basically get that little to show for it, you've failed.

One could probably also argue that we already made that kind of move with the Nash deal, and that a second one would be more Seguin-like than Thornton-like.

* * *​

Wasn't saying the trade was good - just pointing out that an organization can succeed even after trading away a #1 C.

That to me falls more under the category of "maybe you shouldn't give up entirely if this actually goes down" rather than "this could go well for us and might not be a bad idea".

 

[CBJx614]

we need to accept the updated version

Emellin, Tinordi, 3rd

Every single thread, and I mean every single thread!!

Damnit, beat me too it. I'm pretty sure Montreal has been trying to get rid of Emelin since at least the start of last season.

I wouldn't trade him just for the sake of trading him, but i do think the Jackets would be a better hockey team with Jones+ than with Johansen.

Part of me agrees, depends on how they develop. I honestly have no idea hown Joey would do in Nashville. But I do think Jones could excel here. With the system that Torts brought in I feel like the D are a lot more involved than previous seasons. The year we went to the playoffs a lot of our offense was generated from the Blue line. And that's what we're missing this year.

Before this goes off the rails a clear line should be drawn between "listening" and "considering moving". These are not the same thing. I think all that has been reported is "listening".

But when you're listening all it takes is one person to say the right name on their end and the ball gets nudged forward and starts to roll down hill. I'm sure there's a few names if said Jarmos ears would perk right up.

 

[SuperGenius]

This was straight from JD and Jarmo this summer.

When asked about Johansen, they gushed over his skillset, but were very frank about his will and desire. The exact quote was that he is more skilled than a guy like Toews, but doesn't have the drive. They're trying to develop even a fraction of that within him. If it ever manifests itself, he could be a beast. You can see this sometimes in his play - it just needs to be a regular thing. I guess the hope is that this will come as he matures.

This alone is a reason I think any talk of him moving is far fetched. They see greatness for this young player. At 23 he has plenty of time to get there and the organization intends to get him to realize that potential. At some point, they might have to give up - but I don't think we're there yet.

 

[Jovavic]

Would never happen, still fun to imagine

1. Trade RyJo and Murray for OEL
2. ??
3. Draft Matthews
4. Profit

 

[Viqsi]

Would never happen, still fun to imagine

1. Trade RyJo and Murray for OEL
2. ??
3. Draft Matthews
4. Profit

If that trade in item #1 happened, I walk away.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Would never happen, still fun to imagine

1. Trade RyJo and Murray for OEL
2. ??
3. Draft Matthews
4. Profit

Fun for who, exactly?

"Johansen is Johansen, but Matthews can be anything! He can even be Johansen; you know how long we've wanted one of those!"

"Then let's just keep..."

"WE'LL TAKE MATTHEWS!"

 

[Fred Glover]

This was straight from JD and Jarmo this summer.

When asked about Johansen, they gushed over his skillset, but were very frank about his will and desire. The exact quote was that he is more skilled than a guy like Toews, but doesn't have the drive. They're trying to develop even a fraction of that within him. If it ever manifests itself, he could be a beast. You can see this sometimes in his play - it just needs to be a regular thing. I guess the hope is that this will come as he matures.

This alone is a reason I think any talk of him moving is far fetched. They see greatness for this young player. At 23 he has plenty of time to get there and the organization intends to get him to realize that potential. At some point, they might have to give up - but I don't think we're there yet.

If Jarmo trades Johansen (and I don't think he will) for a #1 defenseman this is an indictment of Jarmo's inability and/or unwillingness to fix the defense in the offseason.

 

[EspenK]

If Jarmo trades Johansen (and I don't think he will) for a #1 defenseman this is an indictment of Jarmo's inability and/or unwillingness to fix the defense in the offseason.

Huh?

 

[EspenK]

This was straight from JD and Jarmo this summer.

When asked about Johansen, they gushed over his skillset, but were very frank about his will and desire. The exact quote was that he is more skilled than a guy like Toews, but doesn't have the drive. They're trying to develop even a fraction of that within him. If it ever manifests itself, he could be a beast. You can see this sometimes in his play - it just needs to be a regular thing. I guess the hope is that this will come as he matures.

This alone is a reason I think any talk of him moving is far fetched. They see greatness for this young player. At 23 he has plenty of time to get there and the organization intends to get him to realize that potential. At some point, they might have to give up - but I don't think we're there yet.

If was going to hang around for 3 or 4 years at $4 mill a year then patience is a virtue. To me the big issue with him is do you sign him to a 7 or 8 year deal and hope the consistency develops or do you cut bait and get as much as possible as soon as possible?

If he goes to arbitration and wins a one year deal then we risk losing him for a bunch of picks.

No one wanted to trade Nash right before he signed his big deal. By the end there weren't many who weren't happy to see him go. To me the similarities here are striking.

 

[Fred Glover]

Huh?

Jarmo is trading cause he is desperate

 

[blahblah]

I suggested on the main thread something like

Johansen + Atkinson + Rychel/Milano/Bjork

for

Seth Jones + Filip Forsberg


thoughts? Forsberg has started a bit slow this year, so I'm not sure how highly he is valued in their system.

Thoughts?

Honestly I think Johansen is worth more than Jones and Forseberg a bit more than Atkinson. I see no reason to add a top prospect on our part.

 

[blahblah]

Jarmo is trading cause he is desperate

If Johansen isn't your #1 center in the future, move him now before the contract becomes an issue. If you don't think he's your guy now you don't want to dump a big contract on him.

I don't see this as desperation with this season.

 

[blahblah]

Whatever is going on, I suspect more is being made of it than necessary, particularly among fans. Porty's been casually feeding the Torts v. Johansen narrative since they brought in the new coach, though, and I think other media are picking up on that. I don't doubt that there's an attitude adjustment in process and I certainly understand that there's work to be done if this marriage is to work.

Meh, I've been concerned with Johansen on and off since he came here. I thought he turned a bit of a corner last season but it feels like regression this season. Between now and the start of next season is kind of when you listen to things. If you wait until a contract impasse you could be dealing with diminishing returns in trade value.

Honestly I'm not sure he's the #1 center we are looking for. Not the kind that you build your team around and win a Cup with.

 

[Fred Glover]

If Johansen isn't your #1 center in the future, move him now before the contract becomes an issue. If you don't think he's your guy now you don't want to dump a big contract on him.

I don't see this as desperation with this season.

And what do you trade him for? Another center? A defenseman? My point is simply this, if he trades Johansen for a defenseman, which is what has been talked about, he is desperate. Not about the season, but the shape of his defense. Jarmo should have fixed it in the offseason.

 

[blahblah]

And what do you trade him for? Another center? A defenseman? My point is simply this, if he trades Johansen for a defenseman, which is what has been talked about, he is desperate. Not about the season, but the shape of his defense. Jarmo should have fixed it in the offseason.

You can not come to that conclusion based on trading for a position. Deep down you know that. The teams winning month would suggest that desperation off the table as desperation would have been making a move during the losing streak.

I'm not going to go back in time. GM's rarely address things in the time frame fans are looking for. We aren't privy to discussions with teams during the off season and there really wasn't much to acquire during FA.

Wait until a deal is made and see what the return is before you jump to conclusions.\

As far as what you trade him for, I would have to see if there is an offer that makes me consider moving him. Personally I wouldn't have a position in my mind. If I was the GM I wouldn't even take moving him for a wing off the board. Frankly I don't think it would be a 1/1 trade.

 

[Fred Glover]

You can not come to that conclusion based on trading for a position. Deep down you know that. The teams winning month would suggest that desperation off the table as desperation would have been making a move during the losing streak.

I'm not going to go back in time. GM's rarely address things in the time frame fans are looking for. We aren't privy to discussions with teams during the off season and there really wasn't much to acquire during FA.

Wait until a deal is made and see what the return is before you jump to conclusions.

If you trade Johansen, you wait until after the season. What is the rush to trade him now? For all the reasons you suggest for possibly trading him, wait until later, when the market tends to go up. If he trades him now, to me, it smacks of desperation.