RW Matvei Michkov (2023, 7th, PHI) Part 4

[Nico Cauzuki]

FYI, since Lapointe took over the draft department from Timmins Montreal drafted Caufield (15), Guhle (16), Mailloux (31), Slafkovsky (1), Mesar (26), Reinbacher (5), Demidov (5) and Hage (21). He does seem to know what he’s doing - Better than HFboards at least and the « majority » of its members

Hate the Mesar pick and will see about Reinbacher vs Michkov but the rest look good for now you can even add Beck,Fowler and Engstrom who also look like great picks

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

In the last day six pages of utter nonsense Michkov vs. Demidov wars. Please stop. It’s very childish and revealing. Majority of people reading this thread don’t care how Michkov compares to Demidov.

 

[Guadana]

It’s way harder to acquire young top pairing RHD than young PPG winger. Let’s not kid ourselves here.

Pf. RD of Reinbacher profile are available. Wingers of Demidov and especially Michkov profile are not. Don’t fool yourself, Demidov is your most important prospect, not Reinbacher. And Michkov is on the level or even better than Demidov.
You are trying to simplify but they are on different levels.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Pf. RD of Reinbacher profile are available. Wingers of Demidov and especially Michkov profile are not. Don’t fool yourself, Demidov is your most important prospect, not Reinbacher. And Michkov is on the level or even better than Demidov.
You are trying to simplify but they are on different levels.

When was the last time a top pairing D was traded? It’s been a while. It practically never happens. It’s probably the hardest position to fill on a team

 

[Guadana]

When was the last time a top pairing D was traded? It’s been a while. It practically never happens. It’s probably the hardest position to fill on a team

D? Okay)
Do you believe Reinbacher will be top pair? Especially from the start?

Seth Jones was traded. Hamilton was signed from the market. He was traded before, Lindholm was traded. Pietro was signed from the market. Severson(who could be real outcome from Reinbacher, may be better defensively) was signed from the market. Hanifin. Chycrun. Sergachyov.

Michkov and Demidov are very rare players. If Reinbacher could be Quinn Hughes or Makar or Heiskanen level prospect - we could argue. 2-3rd level defensemen? They are much cheaper and can be traded or signed from the market every year. Go look and find 80-100+ points players on the market even this year. Old men Stamkos, Marchessault as best wingers? And Skjei, Pesce and Mountour as best defensemen.

In the last time we can remember Gaudreau and Tkachuk. Both were available because of Calgary. It’s just a simple math. There are a lot more 2nd-3rd defensemen and prospects with this level of potential. Player with ceiling of 100 points or even more is very rare animal.

Go and offer Reinbacher for Michkov one for one. Go and try to acquire Kaprisov for Werenski or for Dobson or for Morrisey or for Matheson).

So like I said part(only part) of mtl fan base is trying to tell that “it couldn’t be only Russian factor” or even try to say that “Reinbacher is more attractive”. He isn’t even if he is very good prospect by himself. Player isn’t the problem, problem is mtl media and part of mtl stuff who pushed fake narratives and lie about the player.

 

[Baksfamous112]

D? Okay)
Do you believe Reinbacher will be top pair? Especially from the start?

Seth Jones was traded. Hamilton was signed from the market. He was traded before, Lindholm was traded. Pietro was signed from the market. Severson(who could be real outcome from Reinbacher, may be better defensively) was signed from the market. Hanifin. Chycrun. Sergachyov.

Michkov and Demidov are very rare players. If Reinbacher could be Quinn Hughes or Makar or Heiskanen level prospect - we could argue. 2-3rd level defensemen? They are much cheaper and can be traded or signed from the market every year. Go look and find 80-100+ points players on the market even this year. Old men Stamkos, Marchessault as best wingers? And Skjei, Pesce and Mountour as best defensemen.

In the last time we can remember Gaudreau and Tkachuk. Both were available because of Calgary. It’s just a simple math. There are a lot more 2nd-3rd defensemen and prospects with this level of potential. Player with ceiling of 100 points or even more is very rare animal.

Go and offer Reinbacher for Michkov one for one. Go and try to acquire Kaprisov for Werenski or for Dobson or for Morrisey or for Matheson).

So like I said part(only part) of mtl fan base is trying to tell that “it couldn’t be only Russian factor” or even try to say that “Reinbacher is more attractive”. He isn’t even if he is very good prospect by himself. Player isn’t the problem, problem is mtl media and part of mtl stuff who pushed fake narratives and lie about the player.

Skjei (lefty), Pesce, Pietrangelo and Montour were all 29+ when they went to FA to sign new deals. Hanifin, Sergachev and Chychrun and Lindholm are all left handed. Seth Jones was traded for a young PPG center at the time of the trade you're referring to but I'll give it to you, I'll add him to the list. The only real example you have over the last 15+ years where a young (as you specified yourself) top pair RHD was traded is Hamilton and Seth Jones.

Buchnevich, Duchene, Zibanejad, Stone, ROR, Kessel, Tkachuk, Seguin, Hall, Laine, Meier, Fiala, Eichel, DeBrincat on top of my head were all players traded before they turned 26 and were 80-100 points players.

I also find it funny that you consider Michkov and Demidov to be future 80-100 points players when they haven't even played a game in this league while on the other hand, Reinbacher is at best a top 4 D similar to Severson. It is also quite funny that for you Reinbacher has to come into league at 19 years old and be a top pairing D right away. It's like expecting Michkov to be a 100-110 points player in his first year in Philly. Impossible expectations.

 

[Rob Brown]

My point was that nhl gms are not worried about having high draft picks becoming immediate impact players. Which was the suggested reason that teams passed on mickhov.

Sure but your examples are guys that started in the NHL pretty soon if not right away, which is different than the belief and concern that Michkov wouldn't even come to North America at all for several years. And even then there weren't any guarantees.

 

[Guadana]

Skjei (lefty), Pesce, Pietrangelo and Montour were all 29+ when they went to FA to sign new deals. Hanifin, Sergachev and Chychrun and Lindholm are all left handed. Seth Jones was traded for a young PPG center at the time of the trade you're referring to but I'll give it to you, I'll add him to the list. The only real example you have over the last 15+ years where a young (as you specified yourself) top pair RHD was traded is Hamilton and Seth Jones.

Buchnevich, Duchene, Zibanejad, Stone, ROR, Kessel, Tkachuk, Seguin, Hall, Laine, Meier, Fiala, Eichel, DeBrincat on top of my head were all players traded before they turned 26 and were 80-100 points players.

I also find it funny that you consider Michkov and Demidov to be future 80-100 points players when they haven't even played a game in this league while on the other hand, Reinbacher is at best a top 4 D similar to Severson. It is also quite funny that for you Reinbacher has to come into league at 19 years old and be a top pairing D right away. It's like expecting Michkov to be a 100-110 points player in his first year in Philly. Impossible expectations.

You called D. Hamilton was traded. Jones was traded not for future 100 p player. Severson was free agent. And I didn’t said “young RD”. I said you can trade right defenseman, you can sign right defenseman. This is literally what is going on. But you will not find experienced player of Kaprisov profile.

From your list it’s only Tkachuk. You are clearly trying to sell Michkov lower than Reinbacher, you are comparing him with Fiala, Duchene and Buchnevich etc who were never profiled as potential 100 points players. Zibanejad was 100(90) points player after. etc only Tkachuk. Other were not players with high star profile. If we will deep dive so far, we will take a lot of defensemen and their price was very reasonable. But Tkachuk had big price. Still better player. So if you are comparing him with Zibanejad/Buch/etc, than we should take examples of second pair defensemen. I’m lazy to search it. I’m too lazy to analyze the list of right defensemen overall - if you think that Carlson is a better player than Kaprisov because Carlson is rare 50+ points right defenseman than… may be you should be gm with your vision. from your list centers are available more often, why they are the firsts on the draft? And why we saw so many good defensemen on free agent market, we saw so many trades with good defensemen but we often don’t see trades for Tkachuk or even for better wingers.

I also find funny that you consider Reinbacher to be future 1RD when he haven’t even played a game in this league. Other staff is as bad. I’m not asking from Reinbacher to be top pairing from the start. It’s literally not my words. But he isn’t a player of top league defenseman profile. As I’m not waiting 100 or even 75+ points from Michkov from the start. But ceiling of Michkov is big( bigger than Buchnevich, Duchene, Zibanejad, Stone, ROR, Kessel, Seguin, Hall, Laine, Meier, Fiala, Eichel, DeBrincat), ceiling of Reinbacher isn’t as big. We are talking about potential of top league producer/one of the best league winger/may be even future Hart trophy top-3 candidate. And Reinbacher. His ceiling is second or third defenseman. So again
Go and try to trade Reinbacher for Michkov now
Go and try to trade Kaprisov for Werenski or for Dobson or for Morrisey or for Matheson like I said. Look at your examples. So many forwards. I believe Minnesota will make this trade. I don’t.

And you don’t. You know that Kaprisov has much more value than most 45-55 points defensemen. Everybody knows it. And you would not trade Demidov for Reinbacher if mtl would draft Smith year ago. But you can continue to try to find of reasoning of “it’s easier to find Michkov than Reinbacher”. Yeah. Sure.

 

[Baksfamous112]

You called D. Hamilton was traded. Jones was traded not for future 100 p player. Severson was free agent. And I didn’t said “young RD”. I said you can trade right defenseman, you can sign right defenseman. This is literally what is going on. But you will not find experienced player of Kaprisov profile.

From your list it’s only Tkachuk. You are clearly trying to sell Michkov lower than Reinbacher, you are comparing him with Fiala, Duchene and Buchnevich etc who were never profiled as potential 100 points players. Zibanejad was 100(90) points player after. etc only Tkachuk. Other were not players with high star profile. If we will deep dive so far, we will take a lot of defensemen and their price was very reasonable. But Tkachuk had big price. Still better player. So if you are comparing him with Zibanejad/Buch/etc, than we should take examples of second pair defensemen. I’m lazy to search it. I’m too lazy to analyze the list of right defensemen overall - if you think that Carlson is a better player than Kaprisov because Carlson is rare 50+ points right defenseman than… may be you should be gm with your vision. from your list centers are available more often, why they are the firsts on the draft? And why we saw so many good defensemen on free agent market, we saw so many trades with good defensemen but we often don’t see trades for Tkachuk or even for better wingers.

I also find funny that you consider Reinbacher to be future 1RD when he haven’t even played a game in this league. Other staff is as bad. I’m not asking from Reinbacher to be top pairing from the start. It’s literally not my words. But he isn’t a player of top league defenseman profile. As I’m not waiting 100 or even 75+ points from Michkov from the start. But ceiling of Michkov is big( bigger than Buchnevich, Duchene, Zibanejad, Stone, ROR, Kessel, Seguin, Hall, Laine, Meier, Fiala, Eichel, DeBrincat), ceiling of Reinbacher isn’t as big. We are talking about potential of top league producer/one of the best league winger/may be even future Hart trophy top-3 candidate. And Reinbacher. His ceiling is second or third defenseman. So again
Go and try to trade Reinbacher for Michkov now
Go and try to trade Kaprisov for Werenski or for Dobson or for Morrisey or for Matheson like I said. Look at your examples. So many forwards. I believe Minnesota will make this trade. I don’t.

And you don’t. You know that Kaprisov has much more value than most 45-55 points defensemen. Everybody knows it. And you would not trade Demidov for Reinbacher if mtl would draft Smith year ago. But you can continue to try to find of reasoning of “it’s easier to find Michkov than Reinbacher”. Yeah. Sure.

I called first pairing RHD the whole time.

All these players have multiple PPG seasons. Not sure why you think I'm trying to sell Michkov short here. If Michkov has a similar career path he'll have a good career.

Yes, I think prime John Carlson is a much harder (almost impossible) asset to acquire and would cost a lot more than an 80-90 points prime Michkov to acquire via a trade. Find me a team that has a top pairing RHD under 25 who would make that trade 1 for 1 for Michkov. You won't find a taker.

He certainly can become a future #1 D or top pairing RHD. Anyone saying otherwise is either trolling or doesn't know anything about hockey.

Werenski, Morrisey and Matheson are LHD. Not RHD. I would not trade Dobson for Kaprisov and I don't think NYI would do that either. Even less chance I would do that for Michkov. Also, Michkov doesn't have Kaprisov's ceiling. He's going to be a good 70-90 points player through his career but the chances he hit 100+ are close to none, especially with Flyers current roster and prospect pool.

Again, a #1 RHD or even a top pairing RHD is much, much harder to acquire than a Demidov or Michkov. Let's say we're at the draft and Montreal picked Smith last year and with Montreal current roster and prospect pool, I would not hesitate to trade #5 (with Demidov being available to be picked) for Reinbacher. Not for one second.

EDIT**: For the record, I would be very happy if Demidov is near a PPG (75-90 points) player through his prime and I think that's where his (and Michkov) ceiling are.

 

[Guadana]

All these players have multiple PPG seasons. Not sure why you think I'm trying to sell Michkov short here.

Yes, I think prime John Carlson is a much harder (almost impossible) asset to acquire and would cost a lot more than an 80-90 points prime Michkov to acquire via a trade.

hehe. Yeah. You are not trying.

Tampa won everything with Cernak, Shattenkirk, Schenn, Rutta. And Kucherov. If you think that rare 45-55 points productive RDs are more important than 90-100 points forward than good luck. Carlson is more important now than Kaprizov. He is RD.


Overall good luck with 70 points Michkov. Everybody will see how it goes. At least you will play “45-55 RD is harder to find” card.

Again, a #1 RHD or even a top pairing RHD is much, much harder to acquire than a Demidov or Michkov. Let's say we're at the draft and Montreal picked Smith last year and with Montreal current roster and prospect pool, I would not hesitate to trade #5 (with Demidov being available to be picked) for Reinbacher. Not for one second.

nope it’s not and 45-55 points defenseman is less important than 80-100 points wingers. No one really care about defensive wing. There are no magic. But I see you believe in it.


You think that Reinbacher is more valuable than Demidov. So again - only part of mtl fan base. I believe most of fans would prefer to pick Demidov as best mtl prospect. Everybody have something to believe. You are believing that Reinbacher will be more impactful player on the ice than Michkov and Demidov, I believe a lot of mtl fans are not agree with you here. So I think positions are clear and we can end here.

 

[Baksfamous112]

hehe. Yeah. You are not trying.

Tampa won everything with Cernak, Shattenkirk, Schenn, Rutta. And Kucherov. If you think that rare 45-55 points productive RDs are more important than 90-100 points forward than good luck. Carlson is more important now than Kaprizov. He is RD.


Overall good luck with 70 points Michkov. Everybody will see how it goes. At least you will play “45-55 RD is harder to find” card.


nope it’s not and 45-55 points defenseman is less important than 80-100 points wingers. No one really care about defensive wing. There are no magic. But I see you believe in it.


You think that Reinbacher is more valuable than Demidov. So again - only part of mtl fan base. I believe most of fans would prefer to pick Demidov as best mtl prospect. Everybody have something to believe. You are believing that Reinbacher will be more impactful player on the ice than Michkov and Demidov, I believe a lot of mtl fans are not agree with you here. So I think positions are clear and we can end here.

Actually Tampa Bay won with Hedman, Sergachev, McDonagh (3x #1 D) and Cernak. They also won after acquiring the necessary depth at F in Coleman and Goodrow. You know, they also had Gourde, Point, Cirelli, Stamkos, Palat, Johnsson, Verharghe, Killorn, and Marroon to round up their Forwards with Kucherov and the best goalie in the league.

Carlson is 34 about to turn 35. He's past his prime. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.

Pietrangelo was a 44-55 points player for most of his career. If you think St-Louis would have traded him for a 80-100 points 5'09 forward you're out to lunch.

Yes, I think if both Reinbacher hit their ceiling he will be way more valuable than Demidov. He will also be a much more important piece to a contending Montreal team. No doubt about that. And yes again, if all 3 players hit their ceiling, I do believe Reinbacher will be the more impactful player of all 3, especially the way Montreal line-up is being built. Habs have high-end talent on the wing but aside from Reinbacher, they don't have anyone with the potential to fill that role Reinbacher is supposed to fill in a couple of years. It's also probably the reasoning behind Chicago picking Leshunov over Demidov. Although their fans wanted the talented forwards, they went with the.. wait for it... potential top pairing RHD.

Positions seem clear enough. I bet some Habs fans would prefer Demidov over Reinbacher. It's their choice. A lot of fans like high producing and flashy players. It's entertaining. I prefer to see my team compete with little to no holes and win championships. To each their own.

 

[JIMVINNY]

Actually Tampa Bay won with Hedman, Sergachev, McDonagh (3x #1 D) and Cernak. They also won after acquiring the necessary depth at F in Coleman and Goodrow. You know, they also had Gourde, Point, Cirelli, Stamkos, Palat, Johnsson, Verharghe, Killorn, and Marroon to round up their Forwards with Kucherov and the best goalie in the league.

Carlson is 34 about to turn 35. He's past his prime. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.

Pietrangelo was a 44-55 points player for most of his career. If you think St-Louis would have traded him for a 80-100 points 5'09 forward you're out to lunch.

Yes, I think if both Reinbacher hit their ceiling he will be way more valuable than Demidov. He will also be a much more important piece to a contending Montreal team. No doubt about that. And yes again, if all 3 players hit their ceiling, I do believe Reinbacher will be the more impactful player of all 3, especially the way Montreal line-up is being built. Habs have high-end talent on the wing but aside from Reinbacher, they don't have anyone with the potential to fill that role Reinbacher is supposed to fill in a couple of years. It's also probably the reasoning behind Chicago picking Leshunov over Demidov. Although their fans wanted the talented forwards, they went with the.. wait for it... potential top pairing RHD.

Positions seem clear enough. I bet some Habs fans would prefer Demidov over Reinbacher. It's their choice. A lot of fans like high producing and flashy players. It's entertaining. I prefer to see my team compete with little to no holes and win championships. To each their own.

I'm totally on board the RB & Demidov over Michkov & Demidov train, but I don't think that Reinbacher at his ceiling is automatically more valuable than Demidov/Michkov at theirs. To the Habs, you may be right - We have a lot of winger depth, especially if you include Laine in that, and very little RD depth, so sure, Reinbacher might be more valuable to us 5 years from now. But to a team with defensive depth and no top-line wingers, Demidov/Michkov might be the more valuable player. That could be what you're arguing, if so, no complaints from me.

Now, if we're talking about the 2023 draft, I can absolutely see why some folks are upset that the Habs didn't draft Michkov, because winger depth was not a strength at that time. That being said, neither was right-D depth. Regardless of who I wanted at the time, Hughes and his team have earned the benefit of the doubt, and if they preferred Reinbacher to Michkov, I'll concede (for now) that they know better than I. I'll also argue that they (as well as the other 4 teams that had at least two players higher on their list) know better than any of us nerds who have time to post on a forum about this stuff. The arrogance and complete lack of self-awareness from some of these people is astonishing.

 

[Rob Sense]

Actually Tampa Bay won with Hedman, Sergachev, McDonagh (3x #1 D) and Cernak. They also won after acquiring the necessary depth at F in Coleman and Goodrow. You know, they also had Gourde, Point, Cirelli, Stamkos, Palat, Johnsson, Verharghe, Killorn, and Marroon to round up their Forwards with Kucherov and the best goalie in the league.

Carlson is 34 about to turn 35. He's past his prime. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.

Pietrangelo was a 44-55 points player for most of his career. If you think St-Louis would have traded him for a 80-100 points 5'09 forward you're out to lunch.

Yes, I think if both Reinbacher hit their ceiling he will be way more valuable than Demidov. He will also be a much more important piece to a contending Montreal team. No doubt about that. And yes again, if all 3 players hit their ceiling, I do believe Reinbacher will be the more impactful player of all 3, especially the way Montreal line-up is being built. Habs have high-end talent on the wing but aside from Reinbacher, they don't have anyone with the potential to fill that role Reinbacher is supposed to fill in a couple of years. It's also probably the reasoning behind Chicago picking Leshunov over Demidov. Although their fans wanted the talented forwards, they went with the.. wait for it... potential top pairing RHD.

Positions seem clear enough. I bet some Habs fans would prefer Demidov over Reinbacher. It's their choice. A lot of fans like high producing and flashy players. It's entertaining. I prefer to see my team compete with little to no holes and win championships. To each their own.

i think you are wasting your time trying to convince this character. You can't expect to prevail in arguments with someone who has no adherence to facts and driven by excess fanboyness. Michkov is playing for the Flyers and we are fine with Demidov and Reinbacher. We should just let it rest.

 

[Baksfamous112]

I'm totally on board the RB & Demidov over Michkov & Demidov train, but I don't think that Reinbacher at his ceiling is automatically more valuable than Demidov/Michkov at theirs. To the Habs, you may be right - We have a lot of winger depth, especially if you include Laine in that, and very little RD depth, so sure, Reinbacher might be more valuable to us 5 years from now. But to a team with defensive depth and no top-line wingers, Demidov/Michkov might be the more valuable player. That could be what you're arguing, if so, no complaints from me.

Now, if we're talking about the 2023 draft, I can absolutely see why some folks are upset that the Habs didn't draft Michkov, because winger depth was not a strength at that time. That being said, neither was right-D depth. Regardless of who I wanted at the time, Hughes and his team have earned the benefit of the doubt, and if they preferred Reinbacher to Michkov, I'll concede (for now) that they know better than I. I'll also argue that they (as well as the other 4 teams that had at least two players higher on their list) know better than any of us nerds who have time to post on a forum about this stuff. The arrogance and complete lack of self-awareness from some of these people is astonishing.

I was talking from Montreal point of view but generally speaking the same could be said for most teams in the NHL. A top pairing RHD (and Center for that matter) holds more value than a high-end winger. That's just common sense and has been true for decades.

i think you are wasting your time trying to convince this character. You can't expect to prevail in arguments with someone who has no adherence to facts and driven by excess fanboyness. Michkov is playing for the Flyers and we are fine with Demidov and Reinbacher. We should just let it rest.

Yeah, I figured so after a while. At this point it's just a waste of time. I'm done arguing with that guy.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Thread gets modded because of some people of a certain fanbase

Guadana tells some Fans's to stop using fake naratives to trash Mitchov

Poster "ReHab" ask a some posters of a certain fanbase to stop making @$@ of themselves.

It's starting to look like a pattern that posters from a "certain fanbase" come around August and early September to post in this thread.


Soon the migration season will start and the cycle will begin anew.

This post made me laugh quite a bit, considering the source.

 

[The Last Red]

I love how he stated that TB won multiple Cups and omitted Hedman from their list of d-men. Precious. And no, I’m not comparing Reinbacher to Herman.

 

[JIMVINNY]

I love how he stated that TB won multiple Cups and omitted Hedman from their list of d-men. Precious.

AND Sergachev.

 

[Xirik]

This post made me laugh quite a bit, considering the source.

you're posts always make me laugh so guess its a win win.

 

[The Last Red]

AND Sergachev.

Talk about cherry-picking.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

The internet sucks

 

[Baksfamous112]

Talk about cherry-picking.

He also left out prime McDonagh

 

[The Last Red]

Closest I can think of off the top of my head would be Oilers picking Hall, RNH, Yakupov in consecutive years at #1. Obviously RNH can play wing or centre though.

How did the work out for them? Do you remember “Oil Change” on NHL Network back then? Embarrassing.

 

[CanadienShark]

How did the work out for them? Do you remember “Oil Change” on NHL Network back then? Embarrassing.

You asked a question and said if anyone could provide an example, that you'd stop talking, not start arguing.

 

[The Last Red]

You asked a question and said if anyone could provide an example, that you'd stop talking, not start arguing.

I was lying. But yeah, the Oilers got worse after that idiocy.

 

[Garbageyuk]

you're posts always make me laugh so guess its a win win.

Oh I’m aware. You laugh react any post you disagree with as a passive aggressive, petty little jab, which 99% of the time means it was a logical and reasonable take.