RW Kaapo Kakko - TPS, Liiga (2019 Draft) Part 5

[ijuka]

You are only partially right here. Yes, just the muscle size by itself doesn’t guarantee the optimal strength. But on the other hand if you think of a certain person with regular strength and that same person starts training his/her strength with proper training to gain more strength and he/she achieves clearly improved strength, I can absolutely assure you that this person will have gained clearly more muscle mass at the same time with his/her improved strength.

Yeah, they will have gained a fair amount of muscle mass. But if with their training they focus on strength instead of mass, then:
1. They will gain more strength than if they focused on mass
2. They will gain less mass than if they focused on mass

Of course, that's pretty obvious, but still. The amount of lean muscle mass is not a very useful indicator for how strong a player is, and the focus on just getting bigger is a little disappointing. Hopefully Kakko won't fall into that trap.

Don't forget that Kakko's "illness" might help him by little, because insulin helps gaining muscles, which is medic for diabetes. It also might be the reason how he is so strong already. Usually diabetics gain muscles little faster than normal healty persons because of insulin care.

Injected insulin is used in doping for bodybuilders, that's true. It's said to be the most effective single thing for muscle gain, well outside of... . But I'm not sure how things are different for diabetics.

 

[Ippenator]

Yeah, they will have gained a fair amount of muscle mass. But if with their training they focus on strength instead of mass, then:
1. They will gain more strength than if they focused on mass
2. They will gain less mass than if they focused on mass

Of course, that's pretty obvious, but still. The amount of lean muscle mass is not a very useful indicator for how strong a player is, and the focus on just getting bigger is a little disappointing. Hopefully Kakko won't fall into that trap.
Injected insulin is used in doping for bodybuilders, that's true. It's said to be the most effective single thing for muscle gain, well outside of... . But I'm not sure how things are different for diabetics.

Now I can practically agree with you. But still, to a point, it can be useful to have even some mass through gaining strength at the same time. With strength and some mass you can have momentum in some situations.

But of course, unefficient increased body mass with not substantially improved strength and explosiveness is pretty much useless and can be even harmful to a player.

 

[fr9dd9]

Yeah, they will have gained a fair amount of muscle mass. But if with their training they focus on strength instead of mass, then:
1. They will gain more strength than if they focused on mass
2. They will gain less mass than if they focused on mass

Of course, that's pretty obvious, but still. The amount of lean muscle mass is not a very useful indicator for how strong a player is, and the focus on just getting bigger is a little disappointing. Hopefully Kakko won't fall into that trap.
Injected insulin is used in doping for bodybuilders, that's true. It's said to be the most effective single thing for muscle gain, well outside of... . But I'm not sure how things are different for diabetics.

I have no experiance with diabetics but I think people like Kakko that suffers with diabetics only uses hes injections with more insuline to hes blood when he is to low, wich means he only inject when he is lower then a normal person? Thats what the injections are for. At least thats how my head tells me it should be, if he takes more then hes body needs for gaining muscle purposes no one would really know exept for those who stans verry close to him. Eighter then that he should not gain any more muscle then any other kid? Correct me if im wrong.

 

[Asmola]

Injected insulin is used in doping for bodybuilders, that's true. It's said to be the most effective single thing for muscle gain, well outside of... . But I'm not sure how things are different for diabetics.

Of course it wont help if you take minimum amount of it, also too high amount might result hypoglycemia, but when you learn correct amounts it will help and because insulin is basically free in finland for diabetics (after 50€ deductible), it is easy to take little higher amounts. But im not sure do they take advantage of it in sports, but there is a possibility.

 

[Ippenator]

Of course it wont help if you take minimum amount of it, also too high amount might result hypoglycemia, but when you learn correct amounts it will help and because insulin is basically free in finland for diabetics (after 50€ deductible), it is easy to take little higher amounts. But im not sure do they take advantage of it in sports, but there is a possibility.

Interesting theory. Kind of reminds me of the mildly asthmatic cross country skiers using excessively their medication to improve their inhaling capabilities. At least there has been some speculations about that happening.

 

[TheFinnishTrap]

Yeah, they will have gained a fair amount of muscle mass. But if with their training they focus on strength instead of mass, then:
1. They will gain more strength than if they focused on mass
2. They will gain less mass than if they focused on mass

Of course, that's pretty obvious, but still. The amount of lean muscle mass is not a very useful indicator for how strong a player is, and the focus on just getting bigger is a little disappointing. Hopefully Kakko won't fall into that trap.
Injected insulin is used in doping for bodybuilders, that's true. It's said to be the most effective single thing for muscle gain, well outside of... . But I'm not sure how things are different for diabetics.

Obviously insulin increases glucose uptake in muscle, and thus provides more energy for protein synthesis, but I read up a bit on the subject and found that the actual muscle-growth stimulating effect of insulin is actually due to increased perfusion to the muscle and thus more amino acids being available. In case of type 2 diabetes the blood vessels have decreased response to insulin, so they won't get nearly as much of an advantage from insulin overdosing. I would assume Kakko is a type 1 diabetic, so in his case it would work as with a normal person. However, I'd think continuously overdosing insulin would increase the risk of him developing insulin resistance as well, and too much insulin is life threatening, so I'd tell him to not try it.

 

[Asmola]

Interesting theory. Kind of reminds me of the mildly asthmatic cross country skiers using excessively their medication to improve their inhaling capabilities. At least there has been some speculations about that happening.

Just a theory, I wanted to bring this up. Feels like thursday is way too far away, can't wait for Thursday night to see how Kakko does against danish.

 

[abo9]

people tend to make the erroneous assumption that the more complete and physically developed player has less of a ceiling, and the raw player has more room to grow. Personally I liken it to building a house. I think the stronger the foundation, the more you can build

We will see in a few years like any prospects I guess. I like your house analogy and that's what prompted my question, because scouts must see a hell lot more hockey IQ in Hughes to take him when the team's gonna have to spend time developing him for the NHL, while Kakko is clearly ready and would be working on sharpening his toolkit or working on his weaknesses (I think?).

It's interesting, and even more so than Hischier/Patrick imo bc both Kakko and Hughes look to have star potential, maybe its closer to the Tyler vs Taylor draft for the first picks ?

 

[Polar Bear]

We will see in a few years like any prospects I guess. I like your house analogy and that's what prompted my question, because scouts must see a hell lot more hockey IQ in Hughes to take him when the team's gonna have to spend time developing him for the NHL, while Kakko is clearly ready and would be working on sharpening his toolkit or working on his weaknesses (I think?).

It's interesting, and even more so than Hischier/Patrick imo bc both Kakko and Hughes look to have star potential, maybe its closer to the Tyler vs Taylor draft for the first picks ?

Hughes/Kakko are in different stratospheres than Patrick/Hischier were entering the draft. I think both are franchise altering talents, personally.

 

[Ippenator]

Hughes/Kakko are in different stratospheres than Patrick/Hischier were entering the draft. I think both are franchise altering talents, personally.

Well Hischier is definitely in a higher tier than Patrick. Patrick will most probably be an ok or even a good NHL player, but I don’t see him ever being a true star player and he will most probably be always a tier or two below Hischier, whom in my opinion is only a tier below Kakko’s and Hughes’s tier. And after all it wouldn’t be even super surprising if Hischier would even end up as a same class of a player as Kakko and Hughes. Maybe not the likeliest outcome, but I could still see it happening as one possible scenario.

 

[Polar Bear]

Well Hischier is definitely in a higher tier than Patrick. Patrick will most probably be an ok or even a good NHL player, but I don’t see him ever being a true star player and he will most probably be always a tier or two below Hischier, whom in my opinion is only a tier below Kakko’s and Hughes’s tier. And after all it wouldn’t be even super surprising if Hischier would even end up as a same class of a player as Kakko and Hughes. Maybe not the likeliest outcome, but I could still see it happening as one possible scenario.

It's possible, but I am speaking strictly as prospects ENTERING the draft. Hischier, and certainly Patrick were on lower tiers.

 

[Ippenator]

It's possible, but I am speaking strictly as prospects ENTERING the draft. Hischier, and certainly Patrick were on lower tiers.

I saw Patrick already before the draft as an immensely overrated prospect. Not really especially skilled and extremely injury prone for quite a while. I would have barely had him in my top five then. I still believe him being North American and most scouts being also North American and continuously exposed to the hype that had been going on about Patrick for some time already, kept him still as the 2nd overall pick, when in reality he should’t ever been picked that high. Patrick is honestly one of the most overrated top prospects in the NHL during several recent years.

 

[ijuka]

According to Cordell it is a mix

I see.

Like you I'm not an advanced stat guru, but wouldn't Kakko's stats be expected to be quite different considering he's playing against Liiga competition in some games, while Hughes is playing USNTP competition in some? Not trying to discredit either player just asking a legit question.

Talking about this on here. Indeed, Kakko's playing against Liiga competition, and who knows how those are picked? The "carry in vs dump in"-argument also needs to take into account the play styles the coaches advocate as well as the players' roles for the team.

For the record, in the 5 Liiga playoff games Kakko had 62.6% Corsi% - leading the team by a margin of 3.3% - his team averaged 50.1%. Small sample size but at least that's not cherry picked in any way, simply all his playoff games.

 

[Hockeyisl1fe]

Delete

 

[gump116]

This has probably been discussed in one of these Kakko threads, but is there any chance he’s a center at the nhl level?

 

[Snowsii]

This has probably been discussed in one of these Kakko threads, but is there any chance he’s a center at the nhl level?

He has played as a center, and his playstyle supports center role.. So i can see him as an center in NHL

 

[RageQuit77]

This has probably been discussed in one of these Kakko threads, but is there any chance he’s a center at the nhl level?

In this interesting article, Kaapo Kakko: 2019 NHL Draft Prospect Profile; An Elite Goal Scoring Winger With A Strong Hockey IQ Kaapo himself notes (comment given during U20 WJC), that:

“I feel more comfortable on the wing but I can play center,” Kakko said through translator and teammate Aarne Talvitie.
“I think I get more offensive opportunities as a winger, so in this tournament I like it more on the wing.”

Probably nothing dramatic has happened after that tournament considering his ability to play as center, not at least anything that would make him worse in that role he has demonstrated already in FEL.

 

[Kiekura]

Though some people have lean muscles and they will be if they dont go to bodybuilding. Their strenght does not suffer from this.

Just saying it is possible also, Kakko ofcourse has room to get more strenght.

Yeah but i just mean that Kakko isn't this physical abnormal beast. He will never have those huge legs, because that's not how they will train.

the focus on just getting bigger is a little disappointing. Hopefully Kakko won't fall into that trap.

I think they do that only for really small and skinny players. I don't really get why Laine was dirty bulking one summer and gained several kilos of weight in couple months, because he probably gained a lot of fat in that process.

 

[RageQuit77]

Kaapo seems becoming kind of super poster-boy for people suffering from diabetic and/or celiac diseases. Amount of quality discussion and articles in Finnish media on the topic is increasing (after quick glance over today's topics).

I assume an average Finn will know soon a lot more about these diseases more than they would've without Kaapo's efforts on-ice.

That's great! He is giving face to many, many people, showing with his example that being born with these defects doesn't prohibit glorious sporting career. These kind more serious discussions among this insane overall hype are refreshing to see, IMO.

 

[ijuka]

I think they do that only for really small and skinny players. I don't really get why Laine was dirty bulking one summer and gained several kilos of weight in couple months, because he probably gained a lot of fat in that process.

Actually, that is what I was referring to, it's the same trainer after all. On the other hand, I guess Rantanen etc. didn't really go that way so perhaps that just is an individual case and that's not really such a reason for concern.

In this interesting article, Kaapo Kakko: 2019 NHL Draft Prospect Profile; An Elite Goal Scoring Winger With A Strong Hockey IQ Kaapo himself notes (comment given during U20 WJC), that:

“I feel more comfortable on the wing but I can play center,” Kakko said through translator and teammate Aarne Talvitie.
“I think I get more offensive opportunities as a winger, so in this tournament I like it more on the wing.”

Probably nothing dramatic has happened after that tournament considering his ability to play as center, not at least anything that would make him worse in that role he has demonstrated already in FEL.

Well, he played Center in Liiga for 2 games after that tournament. Then Filppula came back, went to C, and that's exactly when TPS became pure garbage.

 

[Kiekura]

Actually, that is what I was referring to, it's the same trainer after all. On the other hand, I guess Rantanen etc. didn't really go that way so perhaps that just is an individual case and that's not really such a reason for concern.

If I remember correctly, Laine himself have said that he didn't eat right before this season. He was eating candy and stuff like that.

Also Kakko having coelieac disease and diabetes is something that most likely will prevent him from gaining too much weight.

 

[fr9dd9]

I would love to see the whole sequence where Kakko gets down on hes knees to reach the puck before jack, and couple of seconds later at the other side of the offensive zone Kakko is there with The puck and Hughes is comming in from behind trying to Steel the puck but falls down to the ice. That whole clip just looked so funny.

 

[MaV]

Here a couple of general comments:

It didn't really matter that Kakko scored all those goals in the first two games. He could have none and his performance could still be as good as now. Or he could have several assists with him creating all those chances for others. Also, regarding the draft, it's correct that a short tournament doesn't really decide who goes where. But Kakko's performance so far is completely in line with his performance and trajectory of last two seasons. His development has been consistent, fast and getting faster and faster. It should be no surprise that he is currently on this level.

Finally, all this talk about the bigger rinks, more time and space to make moves etc. is again as pointless as it has been for decades. Of course the pace of game in Europen leagues is lesser, but what player wouldn't use that to their advantage? Of course these prospects have to get better when they move to NHL, but why wouldn't that happen when they develop? Even if there isn't as much physical play in those leagues, the key is to judge the players based on what they do when the game gets tougher. I don't think there's been any reason during this season to think that Kakko couldn't adjust his game when he moves up to NHL.

 

[Kiekura]

Here a couple of general comments:

It didn't really matter that Kakko scored all those goals in the first two games. He could have none and his performance could still be as good as now. Or he could have several assists with him creating all those chances for others. Also, regarding the draft, it's correct that a short tournament doesn't really decide who goes where. But Kakko's performance so far is completely in line with his performance and trajectory of last two seasons. His development has been consistent, fast and getting faster and faster. It should be no surprise that he is currently on this level.

Finally, all this talk about the bigger rinks, more time and space to make moves etc. is again as pointless as it has been for decades. Of course the pace of game in Europen leagues is lesser, but what player wouldn't use that to their advantage? Of course these prospects have to get better when they move to NHL, but why wouldn't that happen when they develop? Even if there isn't as much physical play in those leagues, the key is to judge the players based on what they do when the game gets tougher. I don't think there's been any reason during this season to think that Kakko couldn't adjust his game when he moves up to NHL.

Kakko is easily most nhl ready prospect from Finland. He stepped up his game in Liiga and he stepped up his game in this tournament too. And it will happen in NHL too.

 

[ijuka]

Kakko is easily most nhl ready prospect from Finland. He stepped up his game in Liiga and he stepped up his game in this tournament too. And it will happen in NHL too.

Yeah, I wonder if he's able to just step his game up when needed as he steps into NHL. It'll be very interesting to see. In Playoffs he already was in beast mode and at WHC he's already at another level.

I expect him to not be at his best during the summer showcase tournaments and such, he hasn't done so well in meaningless games. But perhaps he'll feel like he has something to prove anyway.