RW Kaapo Kakko - TPS, Liiga (2019 Draft) Part 5

[fr9dd9]

I think hes potential is Peter forsberg, and to not at all even think about it is just up to you as a person who ever reads this, no one knows hes real true potential. But Kakko is doing right now what forsberg did two to three year later in hes era. So its not like its out of this World to think that. No one knows the potential in Kakko and im one of those who believe he can be one of the greatest. I have followed him so much and hes developement curve has gone straight up and is not looking back.

 

[BB88]

True. He's got the entire tool set.

This is the golden age of Finnish hockey. They are churning out a bunch of superstar level talent the past couple years.

If only he was a C, and absolutely.

I'm really tired of this Matthew vs Laine comparison, and reasoning for Hughes over Kakko.
Please do us a favour and take Hughes 1st but for different reasons.
It's just so stupid and wrong.

Not saying this because of you but Button.

 

[agent082]

certainly not Forsberg

Why?

 

[NJ07102]

Well, with that I mean I wont change my mind about it? Still up for discussion?

This is exactly the main reason why all of these so called discussions don't lead anywhere. People have their positions and that's it.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

well now that Hughes is a proven bust I guess NJ are going to take Kakko from us now.

 

[fr9dd9]

This is exactly the main reason why all of these so called discussions don't lead anywhere. People have their positions and that's it.

Haha well, in my case its talk about someones potential, and I would say all that i pretty individual..

 

[Albatros]

Why?

Kakko doesn't have the same combination of attitude and physical dominance.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Kakko doesn't have the same combination of attitude and physical dominance.

Hes 18... is he done developing and getting stronger?

 

[fr9dd9]

Kakko doesn't have the same combination of attitude and physical dominance.

I want to laugh man, Peter didnt even play that physical against men when he was 18.. Cheez

 

[93LEAFS]

I wonder if diseases like diabetes and coeliac (both of which Kakko has), are factored into the draft pick? Obviously they haven't hindered him so far, but they could be factors when measuring his longevity as a player.

I guess Max Domi also has diabetes and it hasn't been a problem for him so far. According to Kakko it mostly just turns eating into a bit more of a hurdle than the rest of the players.

Domi also can't eat gluten. It's been reported a couple of places. I just remember due to his time with the Knights the team was officially sponsored and often ate at Jack Astors where my buddy was a line-chef and they had to make special preparations for Max.

 

[Pi]

If only he was a C, and absolutely.

I'm really tired of this Matthew vs Laine comparison, and reasoning for Hughes over Kakko.
Please do us a favour and take Hughes 1st but for different reasons.
It's just so stupid and wrong.

Not saying this because of you but Button.

Oh for sure. It's only comparable because they are American vs Finnish and likely will be 1st and 2nd again. It's a lazy narrative, that even I am guilty of writing about.

 

[RageQuit77]

Esa Tikkanen: "Is it OK, we take Kaapo Kakko?"

"Onko ok, että otetaan Kaapo Kakko?" – Esa Tikkaselta paljastuksia keskustelustaan NHL-seurapomon kanssa

Translation: Finnish hockey establishment wants that Kaapo will be picked by NYR.

"99% sure Kaapo is going to New York, according to talks with..."

 

[StiffSquid]

I wonder if Kakko has sold his soul to the Devil(s).
Badumtss
I hope not

 

[NJ07102]

Somehow Esa Tikkanen looks like Matti Nykänen.

 

[Albatros]

Hes 18... is he done developing and getting stronger?

Getting stronger is up to him, but I can't see him enjoying giving and taking punishment to the extreme the way Forsberg did.

 

[ijuka]

Getting stronger is up to him, but I can't see him enjoying giving and taking punishment to the extreme the way Forsberg did.

No need to in today's NHL. Though he certainly dishes out punishment quite alright at this point.

Considering he's only like 180 lbs and at 6'2" it's IMO nuts to indicate that he's almost done developing. There's at least an easy 30 pounds to add if not more, and he's already very strong.

 

[kelsier]

I agree, that's true.

When it is extrapolated over whole fellowship of registered user of HFBoards, then we are achieved something.

Its not like the problem is just few Finnish posters (not even in this thread).

Some Finns are badass, granted, that doesn't mean that problems in discussions itself are coming from us. For example, I've never seen a situation where @Ippenator wouldn't have admit he was wrong - when he was wrong. Still, same "controversial" guy has provided more topics for talking than everybody combined. @kelsier always immaculate in his comments, as such, always forced to counter every imaginable half-red counter-comment with full essay. @PsychoDad is still more correct than 99% of his antagonists considering Laine debate of spring 2016.

I only hope these guys could say what they mean in their native tongue. Operation with sometimes overwhelming handicap against these idiots can be very hard, frustrating, causing fatique. Mods doesn't help either. They are nearly always on the side of "consensus", not on the side of a force of argument...

Best arguments and longest going insight to a future concerning Finnish prospects are probably going to be ignored, because they who where right in long term, are also same guys who are/where most rigorous in their analysis short term. Same guys are also the most ignored posters in these parts of the site.

All that same will repeat in adjunction of Kaapo Kakko, with adequate magnitude of force.

Didn't this discussion begin about some stuff about "believing too much in domestic hockey writers"? Ha, I barely read any articles in "Jatkoaika", I hardly bother with the tabloids and I really don't care much about what some Finnish (or foreign) "hockey expert" has to say. I follow these prospects game to game and it's a hobby for me. One of the ones I enjoy the most so I do think I have the needed in-depth knowledge to be able to talk about them. I don't engage into debates out of sheer need to debate, but I may occasionally jump on the chair when there's s a clear cut collision between what someone says and what I see with my own two eyes.

Yeah we Finns can be pretty vocal. For instance, even though I've talked with Ippenator many times and consider him a good and trustworthy guy and someone I can respect, we do have our own battles out in the open when we don't see eye to eye. It's just natural and there's nothing personal about it. He was wrong about Kakko (or time will tell) and is sometimes a bit hasty with "judging" these youngsters, but then again we all have our faults - me included.

As far as the HFreputation goes? Should I care about what a random person across the Atlantic thinks about me? Erm, naah f*k it.

 

[RageQuit77]

@kelsier *nods*

We have our own faults indeed.

Leijonat Perkele!

 

[jaa]

Kakko has a fascinating way of protecting the puck via stickhandling while on the move, I can't come up with any player doing it in a similar fashion.

Usually the best puck protectors and strong board players rely on their lower body strength, reach, balance and size. Kakko has very short stick, is still very raw physically, does not have the greatest balance but still he just manages to get between two or three, 200+ pound defenders with the puck easily, on a regular basis.

His technique is unique, he keeps the puck really close to his body, having his back relatively straight and his head up. Also, he manages to have really strong stride with the puck considering his relatively skinny legs. It's easy to predict that this aspect of his game will only get better as he gets more muscle, lower body strength and explosiveness.

Combining this unique tool to his hockey IQ and great release, he will be an offensive force in the future for rangers(or devils).

Also, considering his progress after the wjc gold on liiga and national games, it it is laughable to say that he does not have much more room to progress even more (compared to hughes for example).

Kakko still is a really raw prospect, there are several things in his game which can be improved. This nonsense of him not being able to grow drastically as a player seems like an analogy to make Hughes' "magical" upside seem better. And my point is not to bash Hughes, his upside is somewhere between marner and mcdavid, but Kakko will also get much, much better as the time passes.

 

[StevenToddIves]

The most common thing people say around here when they are trying elevate one prospect over the other (who they favour for whatever reason) is praising the particular player in question, yet there's always the "but" that follows. Here you presented the perfect case example while over-applauding Hughes and his "over-the-moon" skills and slotting him to another tier entirely than Kakko, which is absurd all things and data considered. Which is why there's no reason for me to analyze the second paragraph, since of course you would say all these things now that Kakko has pulled some leverage thanks to his performance in the WHC and enforcing your initial argument of his inferiority would only put you into bad light. However it does not matter who brought you in, since he's not responsible for your analysis. You could have just fixed the misunderstanding and leave it to that after all.

Ha, you're now trying to turn the tables with some kind of agenda of making me a culprit for "insulting" Hughes? Now tell me, how again did I insult him? I've said he's a great player followed up by applauding his overall skill set - for being ~equal level with Kakko. Then I pointed out where his weaknesses are, which indeed do exist without me over exaggerating and I can point these out with good conscience. No one is perfect at this age. Not having size & strength that an average 1st overall has isn't his fault. Also I mentioned his shot and defensive play needing a lot of work moving forward - more so than Kakko's. Now if you call that insulting then all I can really say is maybe you are a little too sensitive. Nonetheless you did try to turn the tables here without any proper cause which was completely unnecessary and out of line. It wasn't Hughes I was after but your rather, lets just say unearthly projections along with the logic, which now looks like something drawn from alternative reality I was disputing - and still do.

Now as for the entire 1st and 2nd overall debate goes. Sportsnet actually had Kakko as #1 in March so it hasn't even been consensus from the very beginning up until today. Only after leaving out the U18s WHJC and Hughes having a great tournament (and Kakko not playing hockey at all) they reversed the order (afaik). I suppose many of those scouting agencies have already revealed their final lists, which is a pity because the WHC has much bigger impact than tournaments involving kids (everyone and their pets know these two can dominate against their age peers). At the end of the day we are looking right back at Bob's survey and the fact that these very same professionals called the gap razor thing which is exact opposite of what you're trying to declare yourself. Also lets not pretend that history nor nationality doesn't matter, nor the fact that most agencies probably wanting to have their lists go according to mock draft and we're all aware of the ties the Hughes family has to New Jersey Devils. Nevertheless, at the end of the day it boils down to this (couldn't have said it any better):



Still it's difficult to fathom that someone who should have some sort of an expertise at this area, has entirely different picture or should I say setup in his mind where Hughes stands alone at his throne without no one knowing on the door - which you initially suggested where one didn't even have to read between the lines. Yet he's being outplayed as we speak. Oh well, each to their own I suppose.

Erm, I never claimed Kakko would surpass Hughes in skating so again you misinterpreted or assumed something that wasn't there. Have you looked at Barkov lately for instance? He wasn't near as good of skater at the same age as Kakko is today, yet he's turned into great skater in just a few years. Kakko's top speed isn't even bad, it's actually quite good for someone his age/size. So why should we assume Kakko couldn't find anymore gear to his skates? If you look at his early season (which I'm not sure you have outside of the highlights) he wasn't even near as fast as he is today. He's taken a small leap forward already within just one season. Logically we can only assume that he will find more strides in the coming years and what comes to overall skating, it's definitely a strength rather than a weakness. Agility, edge-work, first steps, balance etc combined are more important than top end speed. So if that is his "weakness" along with apparent English skills, then whoever calls him at the podium are in for a treat. So like said, skating can be taught where as size cannot. However if don't feel that's important aspect in evaluation then by all means do so.

Forsberg was one of my all-time favourite players and I cannot but help to see some of the same shades whenever I watch Kakko. Hughes reminds me of Kane without the shooting arsenal. If Kakko hits his ceiling (with a realistic possibility of converting to center) he's going to be top 5 if not top 3 player in the league and for that reason I would pick him 10 out of 10 times.

Wait what? I asked one thing and one thing alone. That you would actually pay attention and read up closely to avoid misunderstandings. Now you're cutting phrases out of the context. Let me correct you, I said "In the real life actions speak louder than words but then again, I'm not sure in which world all the reporters and writers live in.", where I specifically referred to their respective head to head match ups and actually delivering results (gold medals). No where, absolutely no where did that statement had anything whatsoever to do with draft rankings. Geez. I seriously have no respect for people who try to fabricate statements. I hope this was another comprehension error but if it wasn't and you had to resort to something like this, then pity on you.

The consensus opinion according to McKenzie who probably has the best connections in the hockey world stated that the gap was razor thin between Kakko and Hughes. Your or mine opinions won't really make much difference. Whether that consensus will sway to one side or the other after these games are over and done with is certainly something to look forward to. Although I suspect we might forever live in a world where"Kakko has closed the gap, but..." no matter what he did and no matter what his rival didn't do.

Now seriously, if you don't bother to pay attention at least have some manners instead of cutting the context. I appreciate a fair debate but I have zero tolerance for manipulation and if someone cannot play by the rules I'll just consider the matter concluded.

You're clearly intent on "winning" a non-debate. You have projected upon myself criticisms of Kakko I have never made, and then justified them with absurd ideas, like that Kakko has a chance to one day be a superior skater to Jack Hughes. Is it possible that, five years down the road, Kakko is the superior overall hockey player to Hughes? Certainly that's possible. It's also possible that, five years down the road, Bowen Byram or Alex Turcotte is the superior overall hockey player to Kakko. It's also possible that, five years down the road, some guy drafted in the second round turns out to be the best player in the draft. But what is not possible is that Kakko's skating improves so much that he somehow eclipses Jack Hughes in that singular category. Though you are clearly possessing of certain intelligence, it is these sorts of biases and the angst fueling them which render the remainder of your arguments irrelevant.

When have I criticized Kakko's hockey ability? When have I criticized Kakko's English skills (which is as absurd as any criticism of any player I have ever read, by the way). And then you put down my manners, which is equally absurd a criticism. I hold the majority opinion, and by majority I mean every single major scouting service and draft writer on planet Earth, which is that Hughes and Kakko are both phenomenal players standing clearly atop a very strong 2019 draft class, but that Hughes will or should be drafted first overall. You hold the minority opinion that everyone else in the hockey writing world is wrong, and you're clearly willing to invent any false narrative in order to justify this.

So, I'm departing this argument following this post. If you wish to believe you "won", that's fine, it does not affect me. I don't believe in anger or vitriol in sports debate, and I pity those who do. When I watch both Jack Hughes and Kappo Kakko shine as NHL stars for several years into the future, I will enjoy their incredible abilities and be glad I correctly lauded their enormous potential. You can be the guy who changes his argument to "Jack Hughes is so overrated" as he buries bushels of points at the NHL level, because he clearly has difficulty admitting when he's proven to have been uninformed. Who knows? Maybe I'll take one of those hockey writing jobs I'm offered every season and write about Hughes' excellence and Kakko's excellence on a larger scale. So, good luck with winning all your arguments with people who never even initiated them on the Hockey's Future prospects threads.

 

[Saekk]

Somehow Esa Tikkanen looks like Matti Nykänen.

Hopefully he doesn't look like current Nykänen, rip.

 

[Bruce Granville]

Somehow Esa Tikkanen looks like Matti Nykänen.

And Dirk Nowitzki looks like Jens Weißflog...

 

[kelsier]

You're clearly intent on "winning" a non-debate. You have projected upon myself criticisms of Kakko I have never made, and then justified them with absurd ideas, like that Kakko has a chance to one day be a superior skater to Jack Hughes. Is it possible that, five years down the road, Kakko is the superior overall hockey player to Hughes? Certainly that's possible. It's also possible that, five years down the road, Bowen Byram or Alex Turcotte is the superior overall hockey player to Kakko. It's also possible that, five years down the road, some guy drafted in the second round turns out to be the best player in the draft. But what is not possible is that Kakko's skating improves so much that he somehow eclipses Jack Hughes in that singular category. Though you are clearly possessing of certain intelligence, it is these sorts of biases and the angst fueling them which render the remainder of your arguments irrelevant.

When have I criticized Kakko's hockey ability? When have I criticized Kakko's English skills (which is as absurd as any criticism of any player I have ever read, by the way). And then you put down my manners, which is equally absurd a criticism. I hold the majority opinion, and by majority I mean every single major scouting service and draft writer on planet Earth, which is that Hughes and Kakko are both phenomenal players standing clearly atop a very strong 2019 draft class, but that Hughes will or should be drafted first overall. You hold the minority opinion that everyone else in the hockey writing world is wrong, and you're clearly willing to invent any false narrative in order to justify this.

So, I'm departing this argument following this post. If you wish to believe you "won", that's fine, it does not affect me. I don't believe in anger or vitriol in sports debate, and I pity those who do. When I watch both Jack Hughes and Kappo Kakko shine as NHL stars for several years into the future, I will enjoy their incredible abilities and be glad I correctly lauded their enormous potential. You can be the guy who changes his argument to "Jack Hughes is so overrated" as he buries bushels of points at the NHL level, because he clearly has difficulty admitting when he's proven to have been uninformed. Who knows? Maybe I'll take one of those hockey writing jobs I'm offered every season and write about Hughes' excellence and Kakko's excellence on a larger scale. So, good luck with winning all your arguments with people who never even initiated them on the Hockey's Future prospects threads.

Seriously, are you frigging kidding me? At first i) I specifically question how can a prospect suddenly "outgrow" his peer during one relatively short tournament - a scenario you initially claimed possible even though in your mind Hughes is a tier ahead of Kakko. Instead of getting an answer you flied away to some wonderland coming up with a story completely unrelated to the matter. ii) Shortly after you're not only fabricating my statements but also stating that I'm discrediting Hughes (which I am not) iii) and now you clearly don't even seem to be able to follow-up to conversation. Didn't I just tell you a short while ago I never claimed that Kakko should/could pass Hughes in the top end speed/skating ability? Like seriously, why do you keep coming up with that like a broken record? I'm not going to repeat myself so here:

Erm, I never claimed Kakko would surpass Hughes in skating so again you misinterpreted or assumed something that wasn't there. Have you looked at Barkov lately for instance? He wasn't near as good of skater at the same age as Kakko is today, yet he's turned into great skater in just a few years. Kakko's top speed isn't even bad, it's actually quite good for someone his age/size. So why should we assume Kakko couldn't find anymore gear to his skates? If you look at his early season (which I'm not sure you have outside of the highlights) he wasn't even near as fast as he is today. He's taken a small leap forward already within just one season. Logically we can only assume that he will find more strides in the coming years and what comes to overall skating, it's definitely a strength rather than a weakness. Agility, edge-work, first steps, balance etc combined are more important than top end speed. So if that is his "weakness" along with apparent English skills, then whoever calls him at the podium are in for a treat. So like said, skating can be taught where as size cannot. However if don't feel that's important aspect in evaluation then by all means do so.

Sigh. I never thought I'd have to quote myself but there's first time for everything I suppose.

You came here with a storyline of how you have Hughes and Kakko in different tiers and how Hughes have some generational skills. I'm still waiting to hear what skills exactly you were referring to. Oh and by the way I think slamming Kakko on a different tier than Hughes alone is criticism at it's best alone without you having to go into specifics. There's no existing data of Kakko's inferiority and he has Hughes beaten in all three tournaments now. Well perhaps last year's WJHC is arguable because Hughes won the MVP, but then again Kakko was one of the leading figures if not the figure securing the gold medal so there's that. So please, why don't you finally go ahead and elaborate to the rest of us how it is possible for Kakko being so far behind? Oh, at least there's one thing I can agree with you, you never know how things are going to look five years down the road.

Oh come again? So you're basically saying that I invented the real event where McKenzie had a poll where 10 scouts had Hughes ahead of Kakko and said the gap was lazer thin? If it was thin back then, how thin do you think it's going to be after the WHC are over and done with if they both continue as they have? Geez, this really did happen you know? Not a fiction of my imagination or anything. Maybe one day you will get it too. Now I never claimed anything of the lines of Kakko going first. I don't believe he will and I specifically stated the reasons why so I have no idea where or why you come up with this stuff? While I do think Kakko is the better player right now and probably will be the better player down the road looking forward, even I have little doubts about Shero's intentions.

Seriously it saddens me that you bring yourself to this level. Maybe the debate is getting the best out of you? I have absolutely nothing against Hughes, I've never said he's overrated and for someone to have to continue pushing some narrative straight out of the refrigerator it's rather baffling to say the least. But then again considering everything that's been said before I cannot say I'd be shocked or surprised. Still, if you run out of ammo, you don't start shooting blank bullets like a blind man, cause they're not going to safe you. Anyway despite all the non-sense you pulled, I have nothing against you personally apart from ideas and logic (along with methods of how to deal with other people - you don't just fabricate and pull things out of the context) so wish you all the best I guess. I'll be here regardless of if I turned out right or wrong and in case of the latter I have no problems admitting to it either, although I'm quite sure it won't come down to that.

 

[Ippenator]

This is exactly the main reason why all of these so called discussions don't lead anywhere. People have their positions and that's it.

And what on earth should they really lead into? I see them as just exchange of opinions. To me it’s interesting. I rarely change my opinion on the basis of discussions here, but they can be still interesting. And definitely sometimes I have even got some (at least partially) new points of views, if someone really made an interesting new point that I didn’t think of before.

But people demanding for others to change opinions to theirs because of themselves having the same opinion as the so called popular opinion or appealing constantly to authorities to make their opinion clearly better, is honestly a useless thing here, and unfortunately happens way too much. Otherwise discussing can be very interesting and fun around here.

 

[ijuka]

On the topic of skating, Kakko's been even better than I expected when it comes to skating in this tournament. I recall, was it in the second period vs Slovakia he skated a lap around the offensive zone and looked quite impressive. The top speed might not be there but I'm confident that in a few years he'll be considered a very strong skater.