RW Jake Virtanen (2014, 6th, VAN) III

[WetcoastOrca]

An argument could be made that Toronto's development path could be better long term for their player. Neither are going to have a gigantic impact this season.

I like Virtanen's game, but I still think a year to work on things in the dub would do wonders. Especially as the guy. Reinhart for example looks a lot better this season than he did last--just because it's a lesser league against kids, doesn't mean he can't improve.

It really depends on the player. The same was said about Bo Horvat when he struggled offensively at the beginning of last season. I don't think many would now argue that he would have been better served by a year in junior.
Just as a general observation I think the more physically mature guys like Virtanen and Horvat probably make the transition easier. Not to say that this will be the case with Jake but I think that he could quite possibly be a guy who develops better in the NHL.
We'll have a better idea after the 9 game mark, I suspect.

 

[CanaFan]

I've heard quite a few commentators/analysts claim that no player has ever been hurt by going back to junior. Most recently Ferraro, on tsn 1040 in Vancouver. It got me thinking: has there ever been a player hurt by going back to junior?

I can come up with Bulmer who almost made the Wild, sent back after 9 games to work on his offence. Had a decent/good year in Kelowna....and has never been heard from since. The Wild happen to also have a top 6, 20+ goal winger, who's one of the poster boys for: 'Ruined by being called up too soon'.

Obviously El Nino, and Virtanen, are/were at a different level than Bulmer was. I just can't really see how sending guys back when they legitimately earn an NHL roster spot is a good thing. Both Virtanen and McCann did that.

That said the real test starts now, because so many vets mail it in during pre-season.
I mean, both Sedins would've been on waivers if it weren't for that last game vs the Oilers

It's also impossible to tease out whether a prospect's failure is due to being returned to junior versus just not being good enough in the first place (which is often a factor in why a player is returned to junior). I suppose you can look at players who looked good in camp and 'almost' made the team then regressed in junior, but still we don't know how they would have played out had they made the NHL club either. Maybe their preseason was a blip and they regress just as badly once the regular season starts.

It's just not possibly to know how a hypothetical alternate reality compares against the one that actually occurred. I would say that in general there are more 'risk factors' to rushing a kid to the NHL than there are with sending them back to junior. Injury, confidence, and lack of playing time are all tangible risks with playing in the NHL before a player is physically or developmentally ready for the NHL. I'm not sure what the downside of returning to junior is, other than perhaps loss of enthusiasm/motivation for that season, but that also seems rather temporary and not necessarily a career-killer.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

It's also impossible to tease out whether a prospect's failure is due to being returned to junior versus just not being good enough in the first place (which is often a factor in why a player is returned to junior). I suppose you can look at players who looked good in camp and 'almost' made the team then regressed in junior, but still we don't know how they would have played out had they made the NHL club either. Maybe their preseason was a blip and they regress just as badly once the regular season starts.

It's just not possibly to know how a hypothetical alternate reality compares against the one that actually occurred. I would say that in general there are more 'risk factors' to rushing a kid to the NHL than there are with sending them back to junior. Injury, confidence, and lack of playing time are all tangible risks with playing in the NHL before a player is physically or developmentally ready for the NHL. I'm not sure what the downside of returning to junior is, other than perhaps loss of enthusiasm/motivation for that season, but that also seems rather temporary and not necessarily a career-killer.

You could say that about every single player yet there are those who play in the NHL and do well. Just because a player is in the NHL while still junior eligible doesn't mean they were rushed.

 

[CanaFan]

You could say that about every single player yet there are those who play in the NHL and do well. Just because a player is in the NHL while still junior eligible doesn't mean they were rushed.

I don't think I said that. I said there is *more risk* in keeping a player up who appears to not be ready than in sending a player down who appears ready. In other words, when in doubt play it safe. But if a player looks like they can play, then this doesn't apply.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

So he's a healthy scratch?

I understand keeping a jr eligible player up if he's actually playing...but not if he's just going to be a scratch.

 

[Pyromaniac]

If they think he is the 13th forward on the team, then they should have sent him down.

 

[Roo Mad Bro]

Nylander = Ahl
Virtanen = NHL

Virtanen = pressbox.

 

[whlscowt]

If they think he is the 13th forward on the team, then they should have sent him down.

I think they're just giving him a little spending money, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't even stay up 9 games.

 

[Rebuilt]

What is the point of keeping him up here if he is going to be the 13th forward? Play the guy for 9 games then decide.

 

[DFAC]

Hoping to see him slot in on the 2nd line on Sat against CGY

Canucks second line was pretty invisible tonight, he should give it the physical presence its missing

 

[Orca Smash]

Hoping to see him slot in on the 2nd line on Sat against CGY

Canucks second line was pretty invisible tonight, he should give it the physical presence its missing

The advanced stats does say it was the best line. I thought vrbata was unlike himself tonight though missing on chances.

 

[Pyromaniac]

I think they're just giving him a little spending money, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't even stay up 9 games.

That should not be the reason to have him up. If the kid made the team, you should have him play in a meaningful role.

It's not really a big deal yet but I hope they release him for WJ if he is only just a surplus to their plans for this season. I want to see his play at the tournament when he is given a big role and given better line mates. Also the team could really use someone like him.

 

[Robongo01]

Hoping to see him slot in on the 2nd line on Sat against CGY

Canucks second line was pretty invisible tonight, he should give it the physical presence its missing

Willie doesn't switch up lines after wins, especially ones like tonight. They risked Corrado on waivers because "he has to play to develop" but 19 year old Jake can sit in the press box no problem..

 

[bsjezz]

That should not be the reason to have him up. If the kid made the team, you should have him play in a meaningful role.

It's not really a big deal yet but I hope they release him for WJ if he is only just a surplus to their plans for this season. I want to see his play at the tournament when he is given a big role and given better line mates. Also the team could really use someone like him.

he's not surplus to demands, willie was just aware that hartley was going to use his usual goon squad tactics and so his fourth line needed the extra meatbag in prust

 

[IComeInPeace]

The Canucks did the same thing with Bo last season that they will likely do with Virt and McCann, unless they play so well that they just can't take them out of the lineup.

It worked very well in Bo's case.

Playing maybe 1 game a week, and practicing with NHL players is an excellent way to develop a kid.

Let's say Virt stays up here for 9 weeks....if he shows improvement to the point of being worthy of an NHL roster spot, that's great.
But, if not, he's just gone a long way towards getting used to the pace of NHL hockey, not to mention have had an excellent opportunity to see how pro's dedicate themselves and prepare on a day in day out basis.

In my opinion there is way more to be gained from that approach than there is by simply sending the player back to junior. The only downside for the player is that he's in way over his head, and he loses his confidence.

9 games over a couple months isn't that different than what they do in college hockey or some Pro European leagues.
Less games and more preparation is probably a better way for a kid to develop, not the other way around.

 

[VictorLustig]

The Canucks did the same thing with Bo last season that they will likely do with Virt and McCann, unless they play so well that they just can't take them out of the lineup.

It worked very well in Bo's case.

Playing maybe 1 game a week, and practicing with NHL players is an excellent way to develop a kid.

Let's say Virt stays up here for 9 weeks....if he shows improvement to the point of being worthy of an NHL roster spot, that's great.
But, if not, he's just gone a long way towards getting used to the pace of NHL hockey, not to mention have had an excellent opportunity to see how pro's dedicate themselves and prepare on a day in day out basis.

In my opinion there is way more to be gained from that approach than there is by simply sending the player back to junior. The only downside for the player is that he's in way over his head, and he loses his confidence.

9 games over a couple months isn't that different than what they do in college hockey or some Pro European leagues.
Less games and more preparation is probably a better way for a kid to develop, not the other way around.

Not sure whiat pro leagues you mean but over two months SHL teams play around 18 games + CHL games. Same goes for Liiga teams.

 

[lawrence]

The Canucks did the same thing with Bo last season that they will likely do with Virt and McCann, unless they play so well that they just can't take them out of the lineup.

It worked very well in Bo's case.

Playing maybe 1 game a week, and practicing with NHL players is an excellent way to develop a kid.

Let's say Virt stays up here for 9 weeks....if he shows improvement to the point of being worthy of an NHL roster spot, that's great.
But, if not, he's just gone a long way towards getting used to the pace of NHL hockey, not to mention have had an excellent opportunity to see how pro's dedicate themselves and prepare on a day in day out basis.

In my opinion there is way more to be gained from that approach than there is by simply sending the player back to junior. The only downside for the player is that he's in way over his head, and he loses his confidence.

9 games over a couple months isn't that different than what they do in college hockey or some Pro European leagues.
Less games and more preparation is probably a better way for a kid to develop, not the other way around.

I'm not sure why everyone is keeping an eye out on him. We are talking non Canuck fans here, watching his every move . Not sure what the issue is, he is in the end. wether he succeeds or bust, a Canuck issue. You have guys here spewing the most negative things about him, meanwhile those very same guys who are following the Vancouver are dead silent in the McCann thread.

Anyways Jim Bennings knows what he's doing. He will play some games and if he struggles he will be sent down. Benning did say he will not hesitate to dress NHL ready players. Virtannen is close and he's earned his way to at least not sent back to the WHL. Like Cmon, why do you guys even care so much about him for crying out loud.

Kid will play some games and go from there, geeze, do people think he is going to sit in the press for for 82 games?

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

The Canucks did the same thing with Bo last season that they will likely do with Virt and McCann, unless they play so well that they just can't take them out of the lineup.

It worked very well in Bo's case.

Playing maybe 1 game a week, and practicing with NHL players is an excellent way to develop a kid.

Let's say Virt stays up here for 9 weeks....if he shows improvement to the point of being worthy of an NHL roster spot, that's great.
But, if not, he's just gone a long way towards getting used to the pace of NHL hockey, not to mention have had an excellent opportunity to see how pro's dedicate themselves and prepare on a day in day out basis.

In my opinion there is way more to be gained from that approach than there is by simply sending the player back to junior. The only downside for the player is that he's in way over his head, and he loses his confidence.

9 games over a couple months isn't that different than what they do in college hockey or some Pro European leagues.
Less games and more preparation is probably a better way for a kid to develop, not the other way around.

How so? It sounds like an bad way to develop the player. They'd both be better off in junior if that's the plan.

I'm not sure why everyone is keeping an eye out on him. We are talking non Canuck fans here, watching his every move . Not sure what the issue is, he is in the end. wether he succeeds or bust, a Canuck issue. You have guys here spewing the most negative things about him, meanwhile those very same guys who are following the Vancouver are dead silent in the McCann thread.

Anyways Jim Bennings knows what he's doing. He will play some games and if he struggles he will be sent down. Benning did say he will not hesitate to dress NHL ready players. Virtannen is close and he's earned his way to at least not sent back to the WHL. Like Cmon, why do you guys even care so much about him for crying out loud.

Kid will play some games and go from there, geeze, do people think he is going to sit in the press for for 82 games?

Lol. You certainly have no problem posting about prospects who aren't Canucks.

 

[arsmaster*]

Agree with everyone who thinks staying up and not playing is stupid. And Bo wasn't developed like that at all. Bo took a knock to his shoulder in one of the last preseason games last year. Made the team. Went to Utica for a 3 game conditioning stint and then pretty much played all the games he's was healthy for. Virtanen is in no way similar at this time.

The only problem with non Canucks fans posters in here (and why I generally avoid threads on drafted prospects) is the leaf fan telling us about Nylander and the sharks fan who called him invisible (that's what you say when you can't find production on the box score.....invisible).

 

[groov2]

Guys, it's one game. He sat out one game. Sitting out a game here or there is not going to ruin his development for crying out loud. He played well enough to make the team. The coach felt that he played well enough to make the team. The coach wanted a particular lineup for one game (I assume he wanted to see what he had in his vets, giving them the benefit of the doubt because, well, you know, they're vets).

If he sits for 5 games in a row, then we have a conversation.

 

[CanaFan]

Guys, it's one game. He sat out one game. Sitting out a game here or there is not going to ruin his development for crying out loud. He played well enough to make the team. The coach felt that he played well enough to make the team. The coach wanted a particular lineup for one game (I assume he wanted to see what he had in his vets, giving them the benefit of the doubt because, well, you know, they're vets).

If he sits for 5 games in a row, then we have a conversation.

If it's sitting out a game here and there then sure, 100% have no problem with the decision.

But if it is going to be multiple games in a row - 2 or 3 consecutive - then he's gotta go back to junior. For a kid barely 19 this is an important stage in his development and playing a ton of games is far more conducive to that development than sitting a ton of games.

I want Jake to be on the team as much as anyone but if you look at the way the Canucks line up is playing out, it seems highly unlikely that there is room for both Virts and McCann this season, short of trading a bottom 6 winger like Higgins or Hansen.

Line up the other night against Calgary:

Sedin-Sedin-Sutter

Baertschi-Horvat-Vrbata

Burrows-McCann-Hansen

Prust-Cracknell-Dorsett


The problem is the move of Sutter from a 2C/3C to the wing. This bumps Vrbata to the Horvat line which in turn bumps Virtanen to the pressbox. Now if Sutter returns to the 3C slot, then Virtanen can slide in but McCann is then out. And this is even with Higgins out of the line up. Once he's back it gets even more crowded.

And while some would suggest putting Sutter between Prust and Dorsett, that simply won't happen. And I 100% do not want McCann or Virts developing on the 4th line that will get about 8 minutes a night and barely have the puck in the offensive end.

In the end one of Virtanen or McCann probably needs to be returned to Jr. for the other to stay up. In some ways it is probably easier to send Jake back because his game is less developed than McCann and Benning/Desjardins really seem to love Sutter on the top line RW. And McCann did look quite good in the 3C role against the Flames the other night. But on the other hand there is some concern that McCann might wear down more than Jake over the course of a full season and that Jake's skate-forecheck-shoot style might be more needed on the Canucks than McCann's game.

Personally I'm torn as to what to do. In my ideal world they clear out one of Prust/Dorsett and move Higgins for a pick, which clears up room in the bottom 6 for both Virts and McCann to move up and down the line up (hopefully up). But that doesn't seem likely given the tastes of Benning/Desjardins, so in the end I think both will get spotted 9 games and then a decision will be made to send one down and keep one up. Which one stays and which one goes is anyone's guess right now.

 

[arsmaster*]

That 4th line will get more than 8 minutes, the only reason they weren't at 12-13 in game one is that the human mentorpede both took 5 minute fighting majors.

I fully agree with you that playing on that line isn't the spot I want either youngin, but I don't see why playing Sutter on that line is an issue other than wanting to justify his acquisition.

But we could debate this on our team board.

 

[CanaFan]

That 4th line will get more than 8 minutes, the only reason they weren't at 12-13 in game one is that the human mentorpede both took 5 minute fighting majors.

I fully agree with you that playing on that line isn't the spot I want either youngin, but I don't see why playing Sutter on that line is an issue other than wanting to justify his acquisition.

But we could debate this on our team board.

Sure, the line might get more minutes but I think you'll agree that there won't be many with the puck in the offensive zone.

As for Sutter on that line, it doesn't really matter "why" he is there, but the fact that he is has ramifications on the rest of the line up, particularly Jake. If Sutter stays there long-term (and time will tell but WD seems to love him there) and Vrbata stays on Horvat's line, then it points to Jake being back in Calgary sooner or later. Would be somewhat disappointing as I was really looking forward to watching him up this year, but it's probably not the worst thing for his development either (provided he takes the demotion the *right* way).

*And I realize we could do this on our board but I wanted to lay out the Canucks line up for any non-fans to see as it plays a significant part in why Jake hasn't played yet and probably won't play Saturday. The kid *should* be playing based on what he showed in the preseason but our coach loves those vets with character and mentorship, so it's gonna be a monster task for Jake to get into the line up on a regular basis.

 

[WhoseLainesItAnyway]

Well I have 0 bias (I think Nylander will be a great player) and Virtanen is going to score at least 20 goals this year.

 

[CanaFan]

He will turn out fine if we dont push him. He doesnt NEED to make the team just so that we as Canuck fans can boast that Draisiatl, Nylander and Nurse didnt.

All of those players can go to the AHL. Virtanen cant.

The BEST thing for him to do is go back to junior and try to get 100 points. Work on his on ice awareness and decision making. Up in Vancouver he is the 13th forward who is only NHL ready in terms of hitting. He doesnt need to crash and bang 10 min a night. That is not why we drafted him 6th overall to do.

Any 3rd or 4th line scrub can 'crash and bang' for 10 min a night.

He would be 20 at next camp. Hopefully by then his game will have matured and he can make the team or go to Utica for stretches. Lets remember that we are in it for the long haul with Virtanen. Lets develop him properly.

Maybe. I'm not convinced that Virtanen *must* develop in junior to reach his offensive potential, but I agree it *could* be.

The problem I have with thinking Jake can only develop offensively is if he returns to junior and puts up big numbers is it ignores HOW he puts up those numbers. In terms of goal scoring, he had a very productive draft year (45 in 71) but did so mainly on the rush utilizing his speed and heavy shot. If he returns to Calgary and scores 50-55 goals in exactly the same way, is that progress? He still won't have a high end centre to force him to learn new/different ways to score, so there is a real risk he will simply revert to his 'solo style' of play which, at the NHL level, isn't going to fly.

So really it really depends on how he is used in Vancouver this year. If he plays 8-10 minutes with two doorstops on the 4th line then 100% send him back to junior. But if he plays 2nd line with Horvat or even 3rd line with McCann/Sutter and Burrows/Higgins/Hansen? Then he is in a situation where he can (and I think will) develop his offensive game in the areas that he needs to - puck possession, utilizing teammates, board play, and finding soft ice. At least, it seems more likely that he will do that against NHL competition than in junior where skate-hit-shoot has worked quite well for him so far.