News Article: Rutherford and Johnston are staying. Both of them.

[PensFanSince1989]

Im fine with Johnson staying, but still very skeptical, for obvious reasons, of Rutherford.

 

[Joejosh999]

Job #1 is to kidnap Babcock and force-feed him money until he says Yes.

If that doesn't work, I'm not sure it matters much who'll coach. Because the BrainTrust will remain in place.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Agreed. And the injuries on D had a worse effect because they chose to trade Despres for Lovejoy. They made their own bed. We shouldn't make excuses for them when they put the roster in this position.

That seems to be the way the wind's blowing...

 

[Coastal Kev]

Im fine with Johnson staying, but still very skeptical, for obvious reasons, of Rutherford.

Really??? Because the Pens the past two months resembled the NJ Devils. That's style you want to watch??


NOT ME.... I am gone. Next season will be the first year in two decades that I will not pay to watch my Pens.

Not only is the team built poorly, they are also boring.

You can rob me. You can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me!"
-- Gunnery Sgt. Tom Highway (Clint Eastwood), Heartbreak Ridge

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Yeah, there is waaaaay too much love for coach Johnston on this board. And I continue to believe that's mostly because he was the guy we hired after Bylsma. So there's blind faith in him based on his predecessor.

Which is not unlike how we felt about Disco Dan after Therrien lost the collective group. The difference is we actually won something in Disco's early days.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

Yeah, there is waaaaay too much love for coach Johnston on this board. And I continue to believe that's mostly because he was the guy we hired after Bylsma. So there's blind faith in him based on his predecessor.

Which is not unlike how we felt about Disco Dan after Therrien lost the collective group. The difference is we actually won something in Disco's early days.

People always want to blame coaches for everything. The problems with the Penguins, this year especially, were not rooted in coaching. Our roster just isn't very good and has glaring holes in it.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

People always want to blame coaches for everything. The problems with the Penguins, this year especially, were not rooted in coaching.

We have Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin, and can't score goals. So yeah coaching is a major issue with this team.

It might not be the biggest issue, but that's only because we have a myriad of major issues.

 

[Gooch]

Yeah, there is waaaaay too much love for coach Johnston on this board. And I continue to believe that's mostly because he was the guy we hired after Bylsma. So there's blind faith in him based on his predecessor.

Which is not unlike how we felt about Disco Dan after Therrien lost the collective group. The difference is we actually won something in Disco's early days.

I wouldnt say love, but a willingness to see it out with him. He has upside, and when he was hired it was talked about his innovation offensively. Now if we see the same crap next season then I withdraw support but I feel a coach needs more than just one year to fully implement the way he wants to do things. Just the way we saw Bylsma coach one way when he was first hired and then coach another way once he got the time to implement his 'system' I am giving Johnston the chance to show me something different. My opinion of him has nothing to do with Bylsma, I wouldnt be extending this level of faith to just any coach hire. If they had gone with a boring retread like they did with GM I would be giving him the same treatment I am giving Rutherford.

Rutherford on the other hand is a known commodity. There is zero upside in him. He's old, and has always been a mediocre to downright crappy GM. All he did this season is confirm my worst worries with how he'd manage this team.

 

[Gooch]

I lost all respect for Dejan when he was treating the Pirates a team that does a lot with a little like crap while pumping the tires of the Penguins an organization that does so little with a lot.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I wouldnt say love, but a willingness to see it out with him. He has upside, and when he was hired it was talked about his innovation offensively. Now if we see the same crap next season then I withdraw support but I feel a coach needs more than just one year to fully implement the way he wants to do things. Just the way we saw Bylsma coach one way when he was first hired and then coach another way once he got the time to implement his 'system' I am giving Johnston the chance to show me something different. My opinion of him has nothing to do with Bylsma, I wouldnt be extending this level of faith to just any coach hire. If they had gone with a boring retread like they did with GM I would be giving him the same treatment I am giving Rutherford.

Rutherford on the other hand is a known commodity. There is zero upside in him. He's old, and has always been a mediocre to downright crappy GM. All he did this season is confirm my worst worries with how he'd manage this team.

The Pens did not score the last month and a half and in the playoffs. They were the least entertaining Penguin team I have watched since January. And you are willing to give him another year???

My god, if DB's last 3 months looked like MJ's did, his house would have been burnt to the ground last night.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

We have Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin, and can't score goals. So yeah coaching is a major issue with this team.

It might not be the biggest issue, but that's only because we have a myriad of major issues.

And we have no one to get them the puck.

 

[trader997]

These goofs were hired in order to win a cup. We traded Despres and our 1st round pick to have a better chance to win the cup. Regardless of the injuries, it was still the worst playoff performance we witnessed in the past 6 years from this team. The Pens organization failed miserably this year and they should get the boot. Bottom line is they won only twice in their last 11 games.

 

[Coastal Kev]

And we have no one to get them the puck.

I love how this is the "expert hockey" excuse.

First, the Pens were not scoring with Letang, Martin and Pouliot in the lineup.


Second, I played defense and I understand the value of a good breakout pass. But that is only one part of offense. We stunk on the PP. We stunk at puck control. We were terrible with puck battles along the boards. We were weak in front of the oppositions net. But the Pens float "we're missing Letang and Ehrhoff, that's why we can't score", and people lap it up. #Koolaid

 

[DegenX]

I never liked the Ehrhoff signing.

I said at the time that we had enough vets with Letang, Martin, and Määttä entering his second year. That Borts and Fatty were not exactly rookies, either. I wanted them to move Scuderi and let one of the kids earn the last spot. That we needed to improve the top six, not the bring in more D.

I seem to recall being told something about experience and championships. And, here we are, once again with a log jam of experience on the blue line and the chance of another D prospect being lost to waivers.

 

[SEALBound]

Babcock wouldn't demote Kunitz either. I'd guarantee that.

While Babcock does like his vets, if you look at the wings team right now, that's not exactly the case. However, it's not like he would have had many options. Winnik was playing terrible, Downie was a liability, Bennett is clearly not well, Lapierre is needed at center...you just run out of players. When trying to figure out new lines I was able to do it mostly...except for Kunitz...we just did not have the players. If Downie wouldn't run his mouth so much I would have chosen him.

I'll be ****ing furious if Babcock leaves Detroit and we choose not to pursue him because we don't want to hurt Mike "Bylsma In Disguise" Johnston's feelings.

THAT will be very telling of the organization. If Babs resigns in Detroit or goes to the UofM, I will be okay with it. If he states his intentions of leaving and teams pursue him and he signs elsewhere...and I found out the Pens weren't on the list...then that's the time to get furious. Absolutely. This team bounced around coaches in the old day like it was going out of style. This would be the golden opportunity to get a coach that will be part of the solution. Keep MJ as the assistant. The dude knows his **** I believe. I just think he was a little overmatched as a whole in the NHL as a head coach. There's just too much to like about Babcock being here that won't make it soul crushing when he goes elsewhere.

Yep. If the breaking point is giving Babcock full control to coach and make personnel decisions, I'd hand him a blank check and give him the business cards of some real estate agents around Pittsburgh.

**** it. Give him full control. Can't be nearly as bad as the disaster we've seen over the past 5+ years, from two separate coaches and GMs (even if the rest of the front office is exactly the same).

Won't happen though. Lemieux got his playoff revenue. Yinzers ate that **** up about injuries being the sole purpose for this team's demise. "We'll get 'em next year! Time for the annual off-season opening April pool party at Mario's!"

And that's what going to be so difficult. Guerin, Fitzy, and Buttercups are family. JR is a figurehead. It would be very disruptive to the entire organization to have someone coming in that wants full control. I don't believe the org is willing to give him it. If he wants to come here I believe he would have to be okay with just being the head coach but perhaps one that has a lot of influence (and ideally, the backing from ownership). His "control" would have to come gradually as the ice gets chipped off the AGMs over time after moves suggested by Babcock come to fruition.

Rutherford had the right ideas but nothing in the team's philosophy changed from Shero and Dan. The PR was spot-on and said all the right things, but the people in charge were the same other than Rutherford. When it came down to it, the biggest piece of the locker room we traded was James Neal. That wasn't acceptable.

If I'm JR with 20/20 hindsight there's a few things I do differently:

1. Get a draft pick in the Neal deal
Even a 3rd would have been huge for this team. Hornqvist was definitely worth getting, but the value just didn't seem equal, and not getting any futures was a bad sign.

Hindsight = 20/20. I've said this a lot before. AT THAT TIME (see * below) we needed Spaling more than a draft pick. I don't think Horn+Spal+3rd for Neal (without a pick coming back) was going to happen. We got what we needed out of that deal. Looking at Hornqvist's play in the playoffs and how Spaling looked in the last game, I believe I do that deal again.

2. Sign Vrbata instead of Ehrhoff
Ehrhoff looked like a great signing at the time, but it turned out the team wasn't willing to play to his strengths and use him in a PP role, so he was just another soft two-way defenceman on this team. Vrbata on the other hand had the killer season we all knew he would, and only had one more year than Ehrhoff.

I was confused when we signed Ehrhoff. I understood us signing him after reading more into it. I'm not mad we signed him per say. What I'm mad about is that we ended up with Downie, Comeau, and Goc instead of something like Kulemin and Grabovski. Injuries to Ehrhoff and the blatant gaps in the top 6 didn't help the situation. This is where Kunitz, Dupuis, and Scuderi signings killed us, in a bad bad way. The money tied up into them tied our hands pretty bad. Think, had we not had them we could have signed something like:

Perron-Sid-Horny
Kule-Geno-Grabo

Letang-Maatta
Martin-Ehrhoff

In the top 6 and Top 4. Instead, it was an aged Kunitz, a health-questionable Dupuis, and scrubs. Now, Comeau did play VERY well for his contract - I have to give him that and Downie provided much of what we needed since Cooke left but I believe it didn't give us the "depth" we ultimately needed and missed.

3. Trade Brandon Sutter for David Perron
That 1st round pick turned out to be a lot more valuable than Sutter, and we wouldn't have lost that asset. Keeping our 1st would have helped a lot.

I don't think that happens. I don't think in any roster scenario with give up Sutter for Perron. Not because of our perceived value per say but more because of league values. Sutter has more value than Perron. Centers > Wings .

4. Don't trade Despres for Lovejoy
Obviously.

Without Vrbata, and if we were still "all in", then at least

5. Trade Winnik assets for Jagr instead
There's no doubt that Jagr would have had a much greater effect on this team than Winnik in the playoffs. I'd rather keep the picks, but if we had to trade them then he would have been a better return.

This is an interesting one for me. Word was ownership wanted Letestu and Jagr at the deadline. Would Jagr have helped us? We he sure would have filled a top 6 gap that's for sure. Would he have been a difference maker in the series? It's just too hard to say. What I do believe, is that knowing the story of Jagr and what his possible return to pittsburgh would have meant...THAT would have boosted the slumping interest in the team. So was it a hockey decision or a money decision?

Again, hindsight tells us we over paid for Winnik. We did. I thought it at the time and I'm thinking it still today. He wasn't exactly the playoff performer I thought he'd be, though he was indeed overmatched on the top line so we didn't exactly put him in the best place to succeed either. Was kinda like starting Glass with Sid. We needed Winnik though...we need "a Winnik" I guess is more accurate. I believe we should have targeted Tlusty harder than Winnik. I think Tlusty would have been better in the top 6 than Winnik. We had enough bottom 6 guys.

Oh well. Better luck next year.

I guess I'm still in the minority who thought the Ehrhoff deal was a good one for us. Who knows what happens to him this offseason, but had he been healthy, I think he would have helped a great deal.

Letang-Maatta
Marting-Ehrhoff
Scuds-Lovejoy
Cole-Pouliot

That's a deep dman roster for the playoffs. Move Scuds is a logical move to the bench and play Cole/Pouliot or hell even Dumo-Chorney...and our dman roster rivals anyone in the playoffs. Again, not mad we signed him, I'm just mad at what we couldn't do because we signed him.

F'in injuries.

* I will explain this again regarding the Neal-Horny/Spals trade. AT THAT TIME, we needed Spaling in a big way. The bottom 6 at the end of the year was:

Kobasew-Sutter-Pyatt
Glass-Vitale-Adams

with Stempniak sometimes there and Goc in there I believe. Either way, 5 of the 6 were UFAs and ALL very likely to walk as they PROVED to be absolutely 100% ineffective. Sutter was a RFA and you had no idea his wishes on salary and term. You knew he wasn't great but had a solid playoffs. The uncertainty was there. With that...you potentially have to fill 5-6 roster spots. Think about that a moment. Let that sink in a moment. This is before July 1st...where you have NO IDEA what the market will be doing. You also have other signings in mind and may not be able to focus on bottom 6 at the time. What you DO know is that your bottom 6 was putrid and in shambles and you need to start filling it quick, fast, and in a hurry.

Enter Spaling, you have a young kid with decent everything. Not special in any category but not a liability anywhere. He can be a wing or a center and he's a RFA that likely won't be looking for the moon. The best part is, he's potentially available and he fits the perceived gap between Neal and Hornqvist. On top of that, he's likely a player Poile will let go to get Neal. If things go sour on Sutter, he's your new 3C. His versatility is a selling point.

Who drafted in the 3rd round would have been able to fill a bottom 6 / 3C possibly role? No one. What happens if we do Neal for Horn+1st? We take Kapanen. What happens if we switch 1st with Nashville...we take Kapanen. What happens with we trade Martin for a 1st...we trade up and take Kapanen. Who did we get while keeping Martin and getting Spaling...Kapanen.

In case you missed the series, Hornqvist was an absolute beast. Just beast. Period. Definition of playoff hockey beast. I would sell Neal for Hornqvist straight up after seeing what I saw in Hornqvist and know what I've seen from Nealer in the playoffs. Spaling also provide a lot of energy with Comeau and Lapierre on that 4th line. That's perhaps the best 4th line we've ever had in the playoffs in the Sid-Geno era. Better than Dupuis-Adams-Sykora/Satan...which may be 2nd best.

Quite *****ing about the Neal trade I guess is my point. It is what it is, we got good value based on what I saw in the playoffs.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I love how this is the "expert hockey" excuse.

First, the Pens were not scoring with Letang, Martin and Pouliot in the lineup.


Second, I played defense and I understand the value of a good breakout pass. But that is only one part of offense. We stunk on the PP. We stunk at puck control. We were terrible with puck battles along the boards. We were weak in front of the oppositions net. But the Pens float "we're missing Letang and Ehrhoff, that's why we can't score", and people lap it up. #Koolaid

Yup. And let's also not forget C-R-E-A-T-I-V-I-T-Y!

We have virtually no forward aside from the obvious two who can make a play. We have Perron and Bennett, that's it.

You can't win like that. And even those two are neutered by the coach, who continues to play both with drek.

 

[trader997]

These goofs were hired in order to win a cup. We traded Despres and our 1st round pick to have a better chance to win the cup. Regardless of the injuries, it was still the worst playoff performance we witnessed in the past 6 years from this team. The Pens organization failed miserably this year and they should get the boot. Bottom line is they won only twice in their last 11 games.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

I love how this is the "expert hockey" excuse.

First, the Pens were not scoring with Letang, Martin and Pouliot in the lineup.


Second, I played defense and I understand the value of a good breakout pass. But that is only one part of offense. We stunk on the PP. We stunk at puck control. We were terrible with puck battles along the boards. We were weak in front of the oppositions net. But the Pens float "we're missing Letang and Ehrhoff, that's why we can't score", and people lap it up. #Koolaid

Opposed to the "we have Crosby and Malkin and have trouble scoring, must be the coach" expert analysis.

Martin isn't exactly a great puck mover. He can be a fairly dependable D, but I wouldn't consider him a PMD. Pullout while promising, is still a rookie. Having him out, obviously hurt. And Letang is great, and yes, our scoring chances increase when he's on the ice, but it's still up to the players to finish. And that's a problem with this team. We don't have any natural goal scorers. Crosby's goal scoring ability has gone downhill so fast over the past few years. Crosby has what? a 5% (if that) successful rate on breakaways for the past 2 years? Is that a coaching problem? We had offensive chances in the last few weeks during our losing streak. We just couldn't capitalize on them.

We have a slow team. We wouldn't win any type of fast paced, offensive focused style. We had to play tight. We lost because we are a worse team than the Rangers.

Johnson isn't perfect. Never said he is. But the blame the coach excuse gets much. Remember the Babcock hate for fans during the Olympics because Crosby wasn't ripping it up? I'd love Babcock on the Penguins, but he won't be some sort of saviour. For as much of Kunitz hate there is (and a lot of it is justified), Babcock was part of the selecting committee that took Kunitz as one of Canada's Olympic forwards, and then played Kunitz on Canada's #1 line for most of the tournament. Yes, that was 2014 Kunitz, but he wasn't really lighting it up around that time either.

 

[Sam Spade]

Keep the core 4, and then scorched earth policy for the entire organization. Burn it down. Of course that isn't going to happen, and I wouldn't really trust Mario and Burkle to make better choices anyway.

Not arguing here, just wondering how you can consider two players that are ALWAYS injured as part of the core?

If I can move Letang I would do it in a heartbeat, let him become some other teams salary and health problem. I don't think he is as movable as some here though, that injury history is a gigantic red flag if I am a GM.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

The quote means little out of context. Here's the thread:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showt...then+ehrhoff+got+bought+out+pounced+beautiful

Now look at the projected starting line-ups. Look hard for one from that time that included Scuderi, Martin, and Ehrhoff. It was understood that either Scuds was a dead man walking or we were moving Martin, so we had the cap flexibility to go after the forward help we needed. Kulemin was still available.

People post lineups based more on what they would do than what they actually think would happen. While I mused about the future of Martin in that thread, I still believed he would return, as did most. Scuderi was the guy everybody earmarked for the door. Even then, it seemed a little too good to be true. His contract was awful. Why would anybody take him? Anybody assuming he had positive value given the term he still had remaining was engaging in a lot of wishful thinking.

But that was never the plan. Had I thought for a second we'd do the unthinkable and go into the season with all 3 and no forward acquisitions of consequence, my reaction would have been a lot different, as I posted several times when we realized we'd be vet blueline central yet again.

Given your track record perhaps I should give you the benefit of the doubt, but I didn't see you placing any conditions on when it would have been a bad signing in the thread, so it's a little curious to see you blasting it now is all.

I very much regret the Neal trade, good as Horny's been. Malkin's got nobody to play with and our PP has nobody who'll shoot.

That trade-off's a big reason why we went from 5th to 19th in scoring in a single year, IMO.

Injuries, adapting to a different system, playing a more structured defensive game, etc. also played a large part. Not to mention Kunitz's game completely falling off the cliff. But yeah, I'd have kept Neal around as well. Assuming Malkin and Perron were injured, it'll be interesting to see how they come together next year because there were flashes of potential in their short time together.

 

[bluedevil58*]

As a Canes fan, we blamed several people over the years for our horrible seasons. be it coaching, the players, or god knows what else. I saw us go through both Lavi and Paul Maurice and Canes fans blamed them for not making the playoffs and they were fired.

For over a decade I witnessed loaded contracts with NTCs, as well as draft picks and prospects being thrown away in trades as if they were candy. Look at what JR did to your franchise in 1 year? From top of the NHL to playoff bubble team. Now imagine having over a decade of that like we did here in Carolina. Right now if I were a Pens fan I would want JR gone. Immediately.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Opposed to the "we have Crosby and Malkin and have trouble scoring, must be the coach" expert analysis.

Martin isn't exactly a great puck mover. He can be a fairly dependable D, but I wouldn't consider him a PMD. Pullout while promising, is still a rookie. Having him out, obviously hurt. And Letang is great, and yes, our scoring chances increase when he's on the ice, but it's still up to the players to finish. And that's a problem with this team. We don't have any natural goal scorers. Crosby's goal scoring ability has gone downhill so fast over the past few years. Crosby has what? a 5% (if that) successful rate on breakaways for the past 2 years? Is that a coaching problem? We had offensive chances in the last few weeks during our losing streak. We just couldn't capitalize on them.

We have a slow team. We wouldn't win any type of fast paced, offensive focused style. We had to play tight. We lost because we are a worse team than the Rangers.

Johnson isn't perfect. Never said he is. But the blame the coach excuse gets much. Remember the Babcock hate for fans during the Olympics because Crosby wasn't ripping it up? I'd love Babcock on the Penguins, but he won't be some sort of saviour. For as much of Kunitz hate there is (and a lot of it is justified), Babcock was part of the selecting committee that took Kunitz as one of Canada's Olympic forwards, and then played Kunitz on Canada's #1 line for most of the tournament. Yes, that was 2014 Kunitz, but he wasn't really lighting it up around that time either.

I blame both JR and MJ and I would prefer both to be gone. Did you read MJ's comments about not having any issues with our current state of offense???
Nothing about the guy screams leader to me. He seems timid and his team played with that identity.

 

[Asuna]

As a Canes fan, we blamed several people over the years for our horrible seasons. be it coaching, the players, or god knows what else. I saw us go through both Lavi and Paul Maurice and Canes fans blamed them for not making the playoffs and they were fired.

For over a decade I witnessed loaded contracts with NTCs, as well as draft picks and prospects being thrown away in trades as if they were candy. Look at what JR did to your franchise in 1 year? From top of the NHL to playoff bubble team. Now imagine having over a decade of that like we did here in Carolina. Right now if I were a Pens fan I would want JR gone. Immediately.

JR didn't make this go from the top to a bubble team...that was years of neglect from Shero and company. JR surely didn't help things however this year.

 

[bluedevil58*]

JR didn't make this go from the top to a bubble team...that was years of neglect from Shero and company. JR surely didn't help things however this year.

I don't know about that. There were several questionable trades this season along with a questionable signing to Fleury. I know I am just a fan but the writing is on the wall. We have seen this kind of stuff before with the Canes. Ward has 1 great season and BAM loaded contract with NTC for a crazy amount of time. Don't even get me started on us trading away Andrew Ladd and Just Williams. Oh and there was the Jussi Jokinen fleecing. I could go on.

 

[mpp9]

So we were supposed to play an exciting up tempo style with no defensemen who can lug the puck. Interesting.

Anyone with common sense would know MJ changed the style his team was playing due to injuries. Any coach would have.

Anyone assuming Kunitz wouldn't have had preference over an unproductive younger guy like Bennett is also kidding themselves.

It's one thing to say we could use a coach with more experience in the NHL. Someone who's better suited to coach this team in the clutch and grab/idiotic reffing era. But MJ was not the problem this season.