Russia have 1 gold in 10 years in World Juniors
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Nobody except casual fans cares about golds in WJCs as a stat. I rather want to see how many stars for Team Russia those teams produced. The golds are a fine gimmick on gameday. The elimination games are fun to watch. How many golds in how many years I couldn't care less about. The Swedes have won 54 round robin games in a row and went home without medals this time and many times before during that span. They still have a very potent development system and do not have to worry about supply of players for the senior NT.
Also there were 3 silver medals won by Russia in that span. Those are often games of luck a bit too. It's not like Russia was any bad in that span.
The most "systemic" ussue is probably a bad decision about coaching this year.
The WHC is far from a joke. It is very important in every European country where hockey is played. Has been at least 40-50 years.
If you want to talk about joke tourneys, turn towards the embarrassment called Spengler Cup or the EHT tourney. Those have F/G level no-name teams, no prestige and generate very little interest.
How is WHC a joke? Have you seen russian rosters every year?
And yes, Sweden is ahead of Russia at the moment. Way better depth, better at C, much better at D.
Russia is not the USSR. I know they weren't in the tournament this year, but if you take even the best player from Latvia, Belarus, maybe Kazakhstan....and put them on the current Russian roster, likely makes a pretty big difference.
WHC is not best on best. Maybe that is why Europeans put such importance on it? Much better chance to win if Canada's best players are not available?
Spengler Cup is an invitational tournament. It's not any form of best teams meeting. It's a tournament played over holidays btw. Teams have to want to give up their holidays to participate in it. Its easy for us to say "of course they will" when it's just something on TV. But spending a week either away from your family or having to still work when you had a vacation planned. Not to mention for very little interest they sure seem to have a hard time not selling tickets.
Would be almost no difference, and it was the same in USSR times, the only big soviet star who was not from Russia was Balderis
karhukissa
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- Apr 2, 2019
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You also need to take age into consideration. Ovie is 35, Malkin 34, Panarin/Kuznetsov getting really close to 30. I mean they still can be at the top for many years, but Finnish and Swedish core are much younger. So this edge what Russia currently has with forwards is getting closer every year.
The situation in Russian junior hockey is not as bad as it looks.
This team's play was mediocre "thanks" to that fool Larionov's coaching (I was skeptical about him from the beginning. Everything that Larionov touches turns into sh1t. He has ruined too many Russian prospects as a "player agent" and now he ruined this WJC team with his incompetent "coaching").
Last year, under Bragin, Russia was the best team in the WJC tournament. And Russia has almost always medaled in this tournament during the last ten years or so. Russia is, and will be, competitive in this tournament in the future as well.
But there are some deep problems in Russian hockey, and Russia is not as good a hockey country as it should be given its size and number of players and rinks. That is for certain. One thing is that Russia does not develop enough good centers and defensemen. Since Datsyuk and Malkin Russia has not produced any really good centermen (Kuznetsov was a winger in Russia and turned into a center in the NHL). And as far as I know it there are no great center prospects in the horizon either. Michkov and Miroschnichenko are, of course, both wingers. It seems that the most talented kids in Russia always want to play wing?
Russian hockey seems to lack leadership and vision. There are no people involved in Russian hockey with good mind and brains for the game. I don't trust that people like Rotenberg will lead Russia into glory. And Tretiak is just a mascot. Russia needs new Tarasovs and Tikhonovs. But where to find them?
This team's play was mediocre "thanks" to that fool Larionov's coaching (I was skeptical about him from the beginning. Everything that Larionov touches turns into sh1t. He has ruined too many Russian prospects as a "player agent" and now he ruined this WJC team with his incompetent "coaching").
Last year, under Bragin, Russia was the best team in the WJC tournament. And Russia has almost always medaled in this tournament during the last ten years or so. Russia is, and will be, competitive in this tournament in the future as well.
But there are some deep problems in Russian hockey, and Russia is not as good a hockey country as it should be given its size and number of players and rinks. That is for certain. One thing is that Russia does not develop enough good centers and defensemen. Since Datsyuk and Malkin Russia has not produced any really good centermen (Kuznetsov was a winger in Russia and turned into a center in the NHL). And as far as I know it there are no great center prospects in the horizon either. Michkov and Miroschnichenko are, of course, both wingers. It seems that the most talented kids in Russia always want to play wing?
Russian hockey seems to lack leadership and vision. There are no people involved in Russian hockey with good mind and brains for the game. I don't trust that people like Rotenberg will lead Russia into glory. And Tretiak is just a mascot. Russia needs new Tarasovs and Tikhonovs. But where to find them?
I'm not surprised and the trend will probably continue with the current state of Russian hockey and how it's "governed".
No. It's because it's s a very long and strong tradition. WHC has been seen as a very important tourney for a very long time. It also has parallels in many other sports. World champions are renowned in general.
The Spengler Cup is not talked about at all and media coverage is meager. Huge difference here to WHC. Very few people watch the matches on TV. Again, a huge difference to WHC.
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As it was already mentioned, lack of best players will affect the ones with less depth more, and both Canada and USA have great depth.
Nobody thinks that WHC is equal to Olympics with NHL, but it is a prestigious tournament and it is taken very seriously, and oh the irony, the most serious nation in their attitude to WHC is exactly Russia, the one nation that you cant use WHC against because it is "a joke" according to the poster who called it this way originally.
To check if I am telling the truth just look up russian rosters for WHC in last 15 years, or look up, how many times did Ovechkin participate in a "joke".
Doesn't need to be a big star though. If a guy who plays on the top line gets bumped down to second or third line because of some players coming in, that strengthens the team. It's about the depth. It doesn't take superstars. Just good players that adds depth.
Not mention Arturs Irbe and Sandis Ozolinsh would have probably helped the "Russian" teams during their days.
And yes, comparsion between WHC and Spengler Cup is ridiculous. Do you guys also think that american football and baseball are the most popular competitions in the World?
Trust me, there would be maybe 1-2 players from outside of Russia on that team. Its not a difference maker
One more thing regarding this part. For the last 30 years or so, the best players of all European countries haven't been any more easily available than Canada's players. Because they are also playing in the NHL, unlike in the 70ies and before. Also, for a small country with a limited population base and a limited talent pool, it's a much bigger problem to lose most of their very top players - the fill-ins are often of a much lesser quality. Whereas a country with a big pool of players to draw from can usually get pretty good fill-in players.
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
I'm not qualified to speak on the current state of Russian hockey but having watched several of their games this tournament the team was very vanilla. Not a lot of the creativity that I associate with Russia. Was Larionov out of his depth? Seems like it.
As long as these corrupt officials who are not actually interested in creating a powerful hockey system "govern", how can one expect better results? And as long as the "Sun-faced" (Russians will understand who I'm referring to) is there, they won't go away, because they're his trusted "friends". What can fans do? Hope that pure talent can get these teams somewhere, but getting the talented kids to the top is also something that gets hit by the same corruption processes. Now even the coach is corrupt in the face of Larionov. I didn't expect he would fit the mould of a "United Russia"-type official so perfectly, what with his "patriotic tirades" about the "Greatness of Russia".
Even assuming a total change of Russian government into the more "liberal" direction, there's absolutely no guarantee that corruption could actually be weeded out, because these practices become ingrained in time. Рыба гниет с головы ("The fish's decay starts from its head"), as they say. This is a frustratic process for fans of the sport in Russia and for supporters of Russian hockey in general. Maybe something will change, but I think fans and the media need to put some serious pressure on these "officials". We don't like hockey like this!
Joke may have been too strong, but the importance is very localized. And yes it affects things very much. Best on Best, Canada has lost what, one tournament this century? Gold in 2002, 2010, 2014, World CUp in 2004, I guess 2016 although I consider that a bit of novelty money grab. And the 2006 roster was a very odd selection, but I will stipulate they weren't good enough. WHC they have won 4 of the 20 held. Based on best on best, it would seem that number should be a lot higher. It affects the best countries as well.
One could also say Ovechkin went there because he was trying to redeem himself for not still being in the playoffs by that point.
Well you know better than I would, so I will take your word.
Maybe I'm swayed by the fact Czechoslovakia had success in some part due to the fact the Stastnys were there, and they were Slovak.
Rabid Ranger, I personally think Larionov has no idea what he is doing as coach. He's blabbering on about "Russian greatness" and "25 Russian mothers" and making them pass around in the defensive zone like he used to over 30 years ago, but what he perhaps doesn't realize is that the game has changed a whole lot since then. He doesn't seem to understand WJC hockey at all and he seems incapable of motivating young players (just look at the example of Podkolzin "rallying the troops" and him just standing there). Plus he never showed them any kind of tactical plan on the bench. He was lost during the game and never made any adjustments to what the other team was doing. Even when he was fully aware of how each team plays, he acted as if it was the first time he has ever seen Canada or the Czechs play. He never took any responsibility for their horrible showing, just said "it's hockey, the referees, even the Great lose" and all that BS. I think he's a zero as a coach and that he needs to go.
Channelcat
Unhinged user
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
Yeah, great players rarely make good much less great coaches. A lot of reasons for that.
I think these kids could've done much better (maybe not Gold, but Silver definitely) with Bragin. Bragin managed to medal with relatively unpromising lineups and his teams always put up a serious fight. This Team Russia WJC team with Larionov was just a no-show throughout almost the entire tournament. They were slow, sluggish, the hockey IQ seemed low, there wasn't that offensive spark and variety you usually see from Team Russia.
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