GDT: Running Preseason GDT | Game 4 | BUF @ CBJ | 7 PM EST

[VT]

He seems to be past that point in my opinion.

My development philosophy is that you put prospects in the AHL largely so they can develop in a situation where they're not the worst players on the ice, or where they are slightly better than most of the players around them. They'll get more touches and more confidence that way. Mateychuk looks like he's already going to have those advantages in the NHL with the puck on his stick, and possibly be one of our better players right now. Am I crazy for thinking Mateychuk is already at that point?



Werenski - Mateychuk
Provorov - Severson
Harris/Christiansen - Gudbranson
#7:Harris/Christiansen
#8:JJ

Injuries will come soon, don't worry.

Can Mateychuk play on RS? It is important.
See how in other games but he looked better than Jiříček.
Or maybe:

Werenski, Severson
Provorov, Harris
Christiansen, Gudbranson

 

[majormajor]

Can Mateychuk play on RS? It is important.

Yes. He's done it many times.

Vogelhuber was just praising how well Mateychuk played on the right side for Cleveland in the playoffs.

 

[VT]

Yes. He's done it many times.

Vogelhuber was just praising how well Mateychuk played on the right side for Cleveland in the playoffs.

That's great. So, if we remember how Werenski and Boqvist had great chemistry I think Mateychuk will able to play with Zach so good minimum too. Hmm, but what with Jiříček in that case. Harris and Christiansen cannot be send to the AHL without waiver. But after the last season I am not sure Jiříček would want to return to Cleveland.

 

[koteka]

to be fair to the 'organization' (meaning the new guy in charge of hockey ops + new coach, in this instance), they inherited a relationship that the previous two guys (a GM who didn't communicate clearly to the player, and a coach who refused to use him) had utterly soured.

This is an important point. We have multiple guys who the new regime needs to repair relationships with. Do we have a few petulant jerks on the roster or do we have some reasonable people who were jerked around or misled or whatever by the previous group? I don’t know the answer, but the Wad and font office executive wunderkind Rick Nash better figure that out quickly.

 

[majormajor]

That's great. So, if we remember how Werenski and Boqvist had great chemistry I think Mateychuk will able to play with Zach so good minimum too. Hmm, but what with Jiříček in that case. Harris and Christiansen cannot be send to the AHL without waiver. But after the last season I am not sure Jiříček would want to return to Cleveland.

Jiricek won't be happy about getting sent back, I'm sure. The question is whether that attitude should have any effect on the club's decisions.

 

[VT]

Jiricek won't be happy about getting sent back, I'm sure. The question is whether that attitude should have any effect on the club's decisions.

Jiříček can ask for a trade. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised, although if they send him to Cleveland, I hope he would have enough sense to go there and work on fixing his weaknesses.

 

[majormajor]

Jiříček can ask for a trade. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised, although if they send him to Cleveland, I hope he would have enough sense to go there and work on fixing his weaknesses.

Of course he and his agent can make demands. I'm saying that a smart organization isn't going to be swayed by that. Trade requests are very common across the league. They're more likely to become public if the agent thinks that the org can be manipulated. You have to be tough about this sort of thing or you'll just get walked over.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Jiricek looked good on a badly outmatched lineup against Buffalo . He will be in the top 4 . Mateychuk is definitely one of our top 4 defenseman , right now … I think he’s going to make it hard on Don to send him down , when clearly that was the plan coming into camp .

 

[Indy18]

I can't believe we are in a situation with our defense we are going to have to make some tough decisions soon. Mateychuk looks ready ready and I know its preseason but Provorov looked great out there (then again its a contract year for him) and all the other dmen showing some flashes out there (except for the babysitter JJ). I think Mateychuk is ready to come into the league. I know its preseason but I am feeling something right now with him like its time. It seems like this is going to be a situation where we hold 2 scratch Dmen at the start of the season

 

[Monstershockey]

the very reason why AHL time is good for development is why both guys needed more defined roles + higher ice time last year in the NHL in my eyes.

it's really hard for young players to get used to NHL game speed when you're sitting on the bench for long stretches. combine that with a minimal number of shifts, and that leads to them overthinking and forcing things when they're out there, as they try to make the most of their ice time.

that's why the AHL is a good place for development – because skill guys can get acclimated to playing a faster + tougher game, and learn shift-to-shift how to make their game work within that environment.

the FO's initial decision (deciding they were both NHL players) may have been a poor one, but pascal's utter refusal to try to set them up for success was the bigger issue. young skill players simply have to be able to make mistakes in order to grow.

rather than letting them make mistakes, or giving them consistent roles, he tried to hide them away on the bench and instead ride sean kuraly and justin danforth to the eastern conference's worst record.

even brad larsen – a guy who embodies the peter principle – understood the assignment better than pascal did. that's why kent johnson looked awesome as a rookie, and patrik laine played the best hockey of his career in 22-23. with vincent, they looked like the two of the worst players in the league. even johnny had a career-worst season under vincent.

i'm not sure if it was fear or incompetence – or if it was a youth thing or simply a skill player thing – but pascal was simply not fit to coach last year's roster.


'the guys he played' in those situations – jenner, kuraly, danforth, provorov, gudbranson, severson and so on – were all basically getting double shifted for an entire third period every single night, and being told to simply rim the puck out and sprint to the bench for minutes at a time.

if they failed pascal vincent, it was a product of pascal's own choice to absolutely gas the hell out of those guys by playing them that much that late in a game. there were nights where kuraly and jenner in particular were playing 10+ minutes in the third period alone.

it's a recipe for failure, and the only thing on the menu in pascal's kitchen every night during his tenure here.

my expectation is that both jiricek and kj will thrive under dean evason, seeing as he is an actual honest-to-god NHL head coach who understands the value of learning mistakes and knows how to get a roster to be more than the sum of its parts.

I'll disagree that KJ and Jiricek would have been better served playing in the NHL last year.

Maybe Larsen understood better whatever this assignment was, and Laine and KJ may have had better a better year that season, but overall the team was worse. Last year's team was showing some improvement in different areas, but the lack of being able to finish is what made this team look worse than it was.

I am pretty sure I covered it before in another post somewhere else here, but looking at some of the situational numbers, Vincent's team out performed or was just as good as the previous year. In 23-24 they scored first more, actually outscored their opponents in a period for the year, and took twice as many leads into the 3rd period as Larsen's last season. Their inability to finish probably cost them 5/6 or so wins, so the record could/should have been a little better. Plus both Laine and Johnson went out with injury, Laine for most of the year, so given that, plus Johnny's worst career year, still there was improvement. Am I disappointed Vincent is gone and now we have Evason, no, but I can see why Vincent is already back at a head coaching job, and is beginning to possibly work his way back.

As far as this preseason goes, I really don't watch too much, or put too much stock in how they do in the games. That pretty much goes for all the teams I follow in different sports. Preseason is just guys getting themselves ready for the grind. I think the coach pretty much knows what his roster is going to be, so I'll wait until the games start counting and they play 20 or so games before making any kind of judgement.

 

[VT]

I'll disagree that KJ and Jiricek would have been better served playing in the NHL last year.

Maybe Larsen understood better whatever this assignment was, and Laine and KJ may have had better a better year that season, but overall the team was worse. Last year's team was showing some improvement in different areas, but the lack of being able to finish is what made this team look worse than it was.

I am pretty sure I covered it before in another post somewhere else here, but looking at some of the situational numbers, Vincent's team out performed or was just as good as the previous year. In 23-24 they scored first more, actually outscored their opponents in a period for the year, and took twice as many leads into the 3rd period as Larsen's last season. Their inability to finish probably cost them 5/6 or so wins, so the record could/should have been a little better. Plus both Laine and Johnson went out with injury, Laine for most of the year, so given that, plus Johnny's worst career year, still there was improvement. Am I disappointed Vincent is gone and now we have Evason, no, but I can see why Vincent is already back at a head coaching job, and is beginning to possibly work his way back.

As far as this preseason goes, I really don't watch too much, or put too much stock in how they do in the games. That pretty much goes for all the teams I follow in different sports. Preseason is just guys getting themselves ready for the grind. I think the coach pretty much knows what his roster is going to be, so I'll wait until the games start counting and they play 20 or so games before making any kind of judgement.

Laine played after concussion, also it was the second Johnson season. Plus he especially played with an inexperienced center, either Sillinger or Fantilli. I do not see any reason to critique Vincent for their play.

To play, I agree, the system was better.

 

[NotWendell]

If a guy can be sent down without risk, let him cook. Christiansen makes the club. Jiricek might. I love him, but we'll see Mateychuk very soon.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I'll disagree that KJ and Jiricek would have been better served playing in the NHL last year.

that's not quite what i said. would they have been better served playing in the AHL? possibly!

the FO decided they were NHL ready. that may be an issue on its own, but the bigger issue was that, while they were in the NHL, the coach didn't treat them like NHL players and tried to hide them away on the bench.

i think that, with a better coach, both guys could have had much better years in the NHL last year. whether or not playing in the AHL was the best thing for their development, staying in the NHL and not playing served them worse than actually giving them a regular NHL shift would have.

Maybe Larsen understood better whatever this assignment was, and Laine and KJ may have had better a better year that season, but overall the team was worse. Last year's team was showing some improvement in different areas, but the lack of being able to finish is what made this team look worse than it was.

neither larsen nor vincent are nhl head coaching material. that said… larsen had a significantly weaker roster than vincent did, especially defensively.

Defensive TOI leaders

22-23 season	TOI	23-24 season	TOI
Andrew Peeke Erik Gudbranson Vlad Gavrikov Tim Berni Adam Boqvist Gavin Bayreuther Nick Blankenburg Marcus Bjork	1700 1491 1162 1001 857 813 690 599	Ivan Provorov Zach Werenski Erik Gudbranson Damon Severson Jake Bean Adam Boqvist David Jiricek Andrew Peeke	1817 1712 1533 1417 1176 640 628 359

sheerly out of necessity, andrew peeke played as much in larsen's last year as zach werenski did in vincent's first. the injury bug was so bad that they after october they essentially didn't have a single game where they had an NHL-quality defense.

I am pretty sure I covered it before in another post somewhere else here, but looking at some of the situational numbers, Vincent's team out performed or was just as good as the previous year. In 23-24 they scored first more, actually outscored their opponents in a period for the year, and took twice as many leads into the 3rd period as Larsen's last season. Their inability to finish probably cost them 5/6 or so wins, so the record could/should have been a little better. Plus both Laine and Johnson went out with injury, Laine for most of the year, so given that, plus Johnny's worst career year, still there was improvement. Am I disappointed Vincent is gone and now we have Evason, no, but I can see why Vincent is already back at a head coaching job, and is beginning to possibly work his way back.

i'm not saying brad larsen is a good coach, but the defensive differences alone (not to mention adding fantilli, voronkov and texier up front) should have been enough to yield significantly more standings points over a full season.

the 22-23 team also had absurdly bad puck luck, while the 23-24 team had arguably good puck luck.

5v5 puck luck	actual goal dif	expected goal dif	net
22-23	-21	-30	+9
23-24	-88	-46	-42

so, between better health, a stronger roster (significantly so on defense), a +50 goal swing in 'puck luck' and, frankly, an org that wasn't outright tanking anymore, the results under pascal vincent should have been significantly better.

but they weren't. they only added a measly 7 standings points. given the context, i'd argue that pascal actually did a much worse job as cbj coach than larsen did. and larsen was awful.

 

[koteka]

Favorite CBJ HF debates:

which sucky coach sucked the most

dumbest GM move of all time

which 1st round pick was the biggest mistake and who we should have drafted instead

my favorite overrated prospect is better than your favorite overrated prospect

Elvis vs Korpi

ETA - No offense meant to anyone who gets into one of these debates. I have debated them all many times.

 

[Monstershockey]

that's not quite what i said. would they have been better served playing in the AHL? possibly!

the FO decided they were NHL ready. that may be an issue on its own, but the bigger issue was that, while they were in the NHL, the coach didn't treat them like NHL players and tried to hide them away on the bench.

i think that, with a better coach, both guys could have had much better years in the NHL last year. whether or not playing in the AHL was the best thing for their development, staying in the NHL and not playing served them worse than actually giving them a regular NHL shift would have.


neither larsen nor vincent are nhl head coaching material. that said… larsen had a significantly weaker roster than vincent did, especially defensively.

Defensive TOI leaders

22-23 season	TOI	23-24 season	TOI
Andrew Peeke Erik Gudbranson Vlad Gavrikov Tim Berni Adam Boqvist Gavin Bayreuther Nick Blankenburg Marcus Bjork	1700 1491 1162 1001 857 813 690 599	Ivan Provorov Zach Werenski Erik Gudbranson Damon Severson Jake Bean Adam Boqvist David Jiricek Andrew Peeke	1817 1712 1533 1417 1176 640 628 359

sheerly out of necessity, andrew peeke played as much in larsen's last year as zach werenski did in vincent's first. the injury bug was so bad that they after october they essentially didn't have a single game where they had an NHL-quality defense.


i'm not saying brad larsen is a good coach, but the defensive differences alone (not to mention adding fantilli, voronkov and texier up front) should have been enough to yield significantly more standings points over a full season.

the 22-23 team also had absurdly bad puck luck, while the 23-24 team had arguably good puck luck.

5v5 puck luck	actual goal dif	expected goal dif	net
22-23	-21	-30	+9
23-24	-88	-46	-42

so, between better health, a stronger roster (significantly so on defense), a +50 goal swing in 'puck luck' and, frankly, an org that wasn't outright tanking anymore, the results under pascal vincent should have been significantly better.

but they weren't. they only added a measly 7 standings points. given the context, i'd argue that pascal actually did a much worse job as cbj coach than larsen did. and larsen was awful.

I'm not saying either is or isn't head coach material. Both were put in shitty situations with really no chance of succeeding. Both did the best with what they had.

Not sure where you got Peeke getting all those minutes out of necessity, he played more minutes the year before and had better numbers. They were giving him the time because he played ok the year before. Most of what went wrong in Larsen's second year was due to poor goaltending. They basically had one guy that played well, and they were a .500 team when he was in, playing behind the same defense.

Also not sure how you can say adding 2 unproven rookies plus a guy who never lived up to expectations should have added significantly more points in the standings.

It would like saying losing a guy that was basically a PPG player the 2 previous seasons for the majority of the year, having a rookie take a huge step backward, your star player having an off year, and your starting goalie being in the middle of a huge distraction, leading to significantly less points in the standings.

Both coaches had their flaws, but both also were in no win situations. I can't think of anything they could have done that would have extended their stay. They were just placeholders.

 

[NotWendell]

Favorite CBJ HF debates:

which sucky coach sucked the most

dumbest GM move of all time

which 1st round pick was the biggest mistake and who we should have drafted instead

my favorite overrated prospect is better than your favorite overrated prospect

Elvis vs Korpi

ETA - No offense meant to anyone who gets into one of these debates. I have debated them all many times.

Add: who's going to play on what line, even though we all know it will change in the second period.

 

[CBJx614]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1839698419234869634

 

[CBJx614]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1839689260552585342

Looks like it's mostly the tweeners/ non NHLers tonight

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I'm not saying either is or isn't head coach material. Both were put in shitty situations with really no chance of succeeding. Both did the best with what they had.

my point is that, given the context, pascal's 'best' was worse than larsen's best, and that larsen was at least somewhat open to playing young players or letting skill guys play their game.

Not sure where you got Peeke getting all those minutes out of necessity

because if andrew peeke wasn't playing those minutes, they were going to go to marcus bjork and tim berni.

people love to point to the goals against metrics for vincent vs larsen, but the reality is that most of that can be explained by vincent having an array of honest-to-god NHL defensemen to put out there, along with better goaltending.

, he played more minutes the year before and had better numbers.

peeke's numbers in 21-22 were better than they were in 22-23. that wasn't a brad larsen thing, it was a "gets to play with zach werenski" thing.

Also not sure how you can say adding 2 unproven rookies plus a guy who never lived up to expectations should have added significantly more points in the standings.

brad larsen's last team here put up 59 points while having only 1-2 actual NHL defensemen on the roster most nights. pascal vincent's team put up 66 points with better goaltending an a full compliment of NHL defensemen, to the point where larsen's most-used defenseman (peeke) was a healthy scratch for dozens of games.

the two things i'm saying here are:

1. larsen's teams were bad, but he at least trusted the young guys to play and knew how to use skill guys
2. vincent's team was essentially just as bad, with marginal improvements that can be explained by roster quality, and put up those results while also stifling the growth of key young skill players, culminating in an on-ice product that was dull and unwatchable

i'm not saying that giving jiricek or johnson more minutes last year would have led to more standings points, i'm saying that being that bad and withholding trust/ice time from young players is the worst possible combination.

 

[ViD]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1839689260552585342

Looks like it's mostly the tweeners/ non NHLers tonight

The Caps have a close to their NHL lineup, likely going to be a very lopsided matchup

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1839689260552585342

Looks like it's mostly the tweeners/ non NHLers tonight

Sonny Milano and Mike Sgarbossa sound like they should be going up against our family of Lucas.

 

[Viqsi]

Sonny Milano and Mike Sgarbossa sound like they should be going up against our family of Lucas.

The more I see this the more I'm convinced we absolutely need to give a PTO to Luca Fantilli.

 

[Dangleittus13]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1839689260552585342

Looks like it's mostly the tweeners/ non NHLers tonight

Very likely that tonite’s game will be postponed/cancelled so get excited for tomorrow’s home game.

 

[ThirdPeriodTurtle]

Very likely that tonite’s game will be postponed/cancelled so get excited for tomorrow’s home game.

Huh? Please share information if you have something, what's this based on?

 

[Viqsi]

Huh? Please share information if you have something, what's this based on?

Nashville's got cancelled because it was in Tampa, but that's kind of blatantly obvious. No idea why Washington would need to take a similar measure.