Run it back? Poll

[therealkoho]

I'm so back and forth on this. I can't imagine any scenario where we trade any of the core 4 and win that trade. Also seeing mitch raise a cup with another team would just be awful.

That's the the thing, we don't win the one on one trade because there aren't many players of the stature of Matthews or Marner. That said Colorado/Quebec City did very well by coming to their senses and moving away from The Big E. You could argue that Sakic was a Lindros equal, but it was not the case when he was traded, but did Colorado ever make out like a bandit.

You could actually say that the Lindros trade actually resulted in those championships for Colorado. Paddy Roy was the final piece of course, but without Sakic Forsberg and the supporting players there is no cups.

The team that got the supposed best player never really got a sniff.

We should lose that mentality of "can't win the trade" and to be truthful I don't want to win the trade, I want Lord Stanleys Cup. So before we make Matthews the GM, we should really understand what a huge mistake that would be.

 

[Trapper]

That's the the thing, we don't win the one on one trade because there aren't many players of the stature of Matthews or Marner. That said Colorado/Quebec City did very well by coming to their senses and moving away from The Big E. You could argue that Sakic was a Lindros equal, but it was not the case when he was traded, but did Colorado ever make out like a bandit.

You could actually say that the Lindros trade actually resulted in those championships for Colorado. Paddy Roy was the final piece of course, but without Sakic Forsberg and the supporting players there is no cups.

The team that got the supposed best player never really got a sniff.

We should lose that mentality of "can't win the trade" and to be truthful I don't want to win the trade, I want Lord Stanleys Cup. So before we make Matthews the GM, we should really understand what a huge mistake that would be.

Take Matthews and out him on Vegas.
Now take Eichel and put him on the Leafs.
Who do you think would still be playing?
There is no Marner or Rielly or whoever in Vegas.
It’s team build. We win the trade if the collection we put together leads to more success. If we got an equal Marner in trade and still lost in the playoffs did we win the trade?

 

[666]

The team that got the supposed best player never really got a sniff.

Point taken, but the Flyers did go to the finals in 97 although they got swept by Detroit.

 

[therealkoho]

My thoughts as well. Keefe has got to go at this point. Likeable guy, wish him the best but we need a new voice in here. At least 1 core guy has to go as well, Marner seems like the odd man out. I've been searching all week for possible trade options and I can't think of anything.

The best possible trade scenario I could think of was a trade with Arizona. The basis being Marner for Keller + Crouse. Keller is signed long term so his value is pretty high, Crouse is a big body guy with some offense, but would slot in nicely on the 3rd line. We may have to add in this scenario tbh, Marner is the best player in the deal, but he's only signed for 2 years. Getting those two guys would still keep us as a very skilled team, but also adds some much needed size to the lineup.

Unless there's a white knight hiding in the desert I think that after the city said no, the Dogs are officially dead. Will Auston feel the same about signing long term in Houston or Salt Lake City.

I suspect the landing spot is going to be LA.

 

[ToneDog]

Take Matthews and out him on Vegas.
Now take Eichel and put him on the Leafs.
Who do you think would still be playing?
There is no Marner or Rielly or whoever in Vegas.
It’s team build. We win the trade if the collection we put together leads to more success. If we got an equal Marner in trade and still lost in the playoffs did we win the trade?

Vegas also winning with their 3rd or 4th string goalie. They do have two studs on the backend in Petro and Theodore which we do not. They also work their bags off, which we do not.

Dubas thinking he could turn a soft, proven playoff loser team into a tough, playoff winning team by adding ROR, Schenn, McCabe and Acciari at the TDL was again proven wrong. This TDL should have been his last kick at the can.

 

[therealkoho]

Take Matthews and out him on Vegas.
Now take Eichel and put him on the Leafs.
Who do you think would still be playing?
There is no Marner or Rielly or whoever in Vegas.
It’s team build. We win the trade if the collection we put together leads to more success. If we got an equal Marner in trade and still lost in the playoffs did we win the trade?

This is what I'm saying and what I meant about not winning the trade one on one it's impossible, but the one for many is very possible

It's not impossible. If you're getting the Tkachuk in a Tkachuk-Huberdeau type deal you can definitely win the trade. Ironically Mitch for Tkachuk would've been an excellent trade but I believe Matt didn't want to be in Canada (and Dubas was still married to the idea of Mitch Marner last summer).

Most of the fans and media were positive that Calgary won the trade going away.

 

[thusk]

Fire keefe, not because hes a bad coach but i think leafs need a new voice. Guy Boucher would be my choice if hes ready to come back

From the core jt will stay

So between marner Matthews and nylander..

Since matthews is in NHL...had been best 5v5 player and had only 5 goal less than marner and nylander together (remember he missed few game too) he had more 5v5 goal in playoff than marner and nylander together. Hes the only one you rushing the net, hes blocking shot, playing physical...He need to stay

Marner was not pretty good offensivly for his salary for sure... but defensivly he had been solid and was not affraid to give some hit at time and going in shooting lane to block shot... but we need more of him

Nylander
- he didn't had a single goal or primary assist of playoff until gm 8
- he scored 2 goal during 2 blowout vs tampa and last 2 when leafs played for their life... between, resume of a good pass to gustafsson gm 3... thats whats nylander bring offensivly this off-season. Rest a free points a get... at the other end, how many puck possession he cost because he avoiding hit, stop skating everytime he seen someone in front and made everything he can to stay out of shooting lane to dont get hurt by shot?
- when leafs get eliminated, hes the only key player whobleft right after... just showing hes not a team player at all

I cant see any good reason to keep nylander over marner or matthews outside of his salary cap

I think a line up like

Knies-matthews-Jarnkrok
Tavares-oreilly-marner

And with money you will save maybe try to use it to bring a guy like dumba, orlov or anyone from trade that will make leafs a much better collective team

 

[LeafGrief]

Voted for both trade a core4 piece and go nuclear. The answer is somewhere in the middle, but I'm definitely hoping it's more nuclear than conventional.

The team needs a complete overhaul of the leadership structure and an injection of accountability. At an absolute minimum I think Keefe has to go, Tavares stripped of the C (give it to Rielly), and Marner should be traded. Trading a second core4 piece would be nice but is somewhat impractical: Nylander should be kept, a Matthews trade is fraught and I want to see him perform without the anchor that is Marner, and JT has his NTC. I'm up in the air on Dubas and Shanahan, I think they've built a team that looks tremendous, but they failed to build a strong leadership structure which is necessary to have the talent perform. Additionally, the coddling of our star players (Keefe apologizing for criticizing them is a massive institutional failure) goes all the way to the top. Perhaps management is able to finally learn that lesson, but bringing in a new vision might be necessary to completely end this era and reset the team.

It must be a fundamentally different team next year, they cannot be bringing any of the baggage from previous years with them. If they're thinking this is another shot with the same group, they're completely screwed because the pressure will begin in September and it will eat them. They need to have new team smell and feel the need to prove themselves over again. How nuclear do you have to get in order to make them believe that? Find out, otherwise the failures will continue. The narrative is in their heads and must be purged.

 

[ACC1224]

By your logic then, you would have been 99.9% certain that Marleau, born in Sask, would not have waived his NMC from toronto in order to go back to San jose where he had raised his family for over a decade. Weird how that one worked out huh?

You're right, it's the exact same thing

 

[therealkoho]

So what if AM34 says he'll sign for a only a slight raise, but only if they agree not to trade 88 or 16 this summer?

Slight raise! not gonna happen.

Come July 1 Matthews effectively becomes the GM, so it's quite plausible he starts directing traffic, driving the bus or whatever other euphemism you'd like to use.

How do you think 16 or 88 is going to feel, when it occurs to them that Matthews wields all that power, it won't be warm and fuzzy I can tell you that.

The draft table is where the rubber is going to meet the road for this team, July 1st is where the team relinquish's control. The players can run the team I'm sure they have just as many brains as does Kyle, who put them in this position in the 1st place.

One question, why the love affair with Matthews, I mean I know he's not responsible for any of those playoff losses(those are obviously all on MM)and we should exult him for that series win, with all 3 tips and 2 shots resulting in goals contributing to the team outplaying the Lightning by a lot.

 

[therealkoho]

Point taken, but the Flyers did go to the finals in 97 although they got swept by Detroit.

Well let's have the Bud's win a couple of cups and allow wherever Matthews goes to lose a final. All say aye!

 

[therealkoho]

Vegas also winning with their 3rd or 4th string goalie. They do have two studs on the backend in Petro and Theodore which we do not. They also work their bags off, which we do not.

Dubas thinking he could turn a soft, proven playoff loser team into a tough, playoff winning team by adding ROR, Schenn, McCabe and Acciari at the TDL was again proven wrong. This TDL should have been his last kick at the can.

I don't disagree, but if the elite guys all play like they can then those additions should've been enough, that 88 was the only one to show that he cared against Florida is so very ironic, and doesn't say a lot of good things about 34 or 16, both of whom have to go, BOTH.

 

[egd27]

One question, why the love affair with Matthews, I mean I know he's not responsible for any of those playoff losses(those are obviously all on MM)and we should exult him for that series win, with all 3 tips and 2 shots resulting in goals contributing to the team outplaying the Lightning by a lot.

Not sure if you are directing this at me specifically, but I'd have no issues if they were to trade Matthews for the right package. As talented as he is, I just don't get the sense that he hates losing as much as he needs to.

 

[Da Mash]

I would ask Keefe to coach the marlies again with the yr left on his contract and then sign a new coach. Maybe one of our assistants.

I would not hire a Sutter or Trotz etc…. too much of the old boys club

 

[rumman]

All you can do is ask JT to waive. If he says no, you can explain how other members of the core will probably be moving and if he would like to change his answer. That’s about all.

if I'm JT and I don't want to move, I'm not moving especially if it's to save a young buck from being traded. Seniority should stand for something imo regardless if it isn't what's best for the Leafs. Perhaps the GM didn't run this scenario all the way through when he wowed and signed JT? At the time the centre position was the team's last need...........

 

[Guinnes66]

You're right, it's the exact same thing

What does that even mean exact same thing? Every single case will be unique in some way or another if you want to drill down to every detail of a players life and journey. But bottom line is that players have chosen to waive NMC's to go home, to leave home, to uproot their families all the time. Would tavares do the same if asked? I dont know but i know enough not to claim that i would be certain of which one he would pick with 99.9% confidence. When players are told they are no longer wanted or that their role will be reduced then its a fact that they will have to strongly consider the option of leaving whether they wanted to or not.

 

[mikeyz]

I don't think you can approach the offseason as simplistically as the poll sort of suggests I'm against any immediate reactionary moves just to shake things up. Whatever happens, needs to have a plan behind it.

I'm fine with a coaching change. I'm fine with changing up every single support player among the forwards and defenseman, I'd even potentially considered trading Brodie.

Matthews needs to be given priority for an extension. Considering he's the most difficult to replace given his position. I think you can consider trading one of Nylander or Marner, but only if the return matches whatever plan is in place. Otherwise you can basically wait 2 years and then Tavares is gone or at least extended at at an immensely small contract

Immediate reactionary moves?

It’s been 7 years of this. LMFAO

 

[thusk]

I don't disagree, but if the elite guys all play like they can then those additions should've been enough, that 88 was the only one to show that he cared against Florida is so very ironic, and doesn't say a lot of good things about 34 or 16, both of whom have to go, BOTH.

88??? What he really did? You really need to explain me

Scored a lucky goal in pp or a goal to tie the game gm 7

But how many time leafs lost puck possession because he stop skating scare to be hit?


How many time did you see nylander make a defensive play, going on shooting lane or whatever? how many time did you see nylander working hard in forecheck? Probably none for both

The reality is probably the favt nylander didn't feel any pressure and was clutche is probably because he doesn't cared about the team and losing, so he was playing the same exact way than regular season like if its only a regular game and doesnt matther if they win or lost

 

[slozo]

Even though it's listed as the nuclear option (my vote), I think nuking it is a bit of an overstatement - I think that's probably based on the Leafs just assuming their core has assured spots on the team every year.

That being said - Dubas and Keefe should have been fired after Montreal loss, so it's a couple years too late but needs to be done, besides them probably learning from it and getting slightly better.

But honestly, for Dubas to only at the very end - this past trade deadline - to suddenly make all those big changes and FINALLY add some true grit and experience and toughness - is too little, too late. Should have been done over the summer after Montreal or TB losses . . .

So I think any other market other than Leafland - manager, coach would be gone already.
And for this market, you better get someone top end, experienced, not someone learning on the job as these past two were.

And at least 1 major piece needs to go.

 

[therealkoho]

Not sure if you are directing this at me specifically, but I'd have no issues if they were to trade Matthews for the right package. As talented as he is, I just don't get the sense that he hates losing as much as he needs to.

No I'm definitely not egd27

but there seems to be a real aversion and possibly a physical revulsion amongst the fan base to even expressing the thought of moving 34 because;

Best 5v5 guy reg season ever

Hart trophy as leagues greatest reg season player

Because we got to say yay!!! 60 times and yay!!! 40 times a bunch

Like Gen George Patton, Auston led us to a resounding victory of, count em 1 playoff round, trouncing the dreaded Lightning Bolts on the collar of the Tampa hockey Panzers

Easier to put it on Marner, because oh iunno Paul and Darren's twitterj

That's about it I think

 

[therealkoho]

88??? What he really did? You really need to explain me

Scored a lucky goal in pp or a goal to tie the game gm 7

But how many time leafs lost puck possession because he stop skating scare to be hit?


How many time did you see nylander make a defensive play, going on shooting lane or whatever? how many time did you see nylander working hard in forecheck? Probably none for both

The reality is probably the favt nylander didn't feel any pressure and was clutche is probably because he doesn't cared about the team and losing, so he was playing the same exact way than regular season like if its only a regular game and doesnt matther if they win or lost

Oh I guess because when everybody had stopped skating except for Acciari, Bunting, ROR, Reilly, Schenn, McCabe, Holl, Kampf, JT, Nylander was the only other guy who seemed to be still working.

 

[legobeard]

F it. I say keep dubas, he has to suck it up and fire keefe. Keep the core 4 for 1 more uear unless matthews doesn't sign before July first. Bring in more grit to support our ballerinas.

 

[Scion]

Fire Keefe and trade Marner in a package centered around a young top pairing D with potential like Owen Power or Luke Hughes. Then use the cap space freed up to add depth to the top 9 and top 4 defense. I'd like the Leafs to emphasize getting younger, faster and tougher.

 

[thusk]

Oh I guess because when everybody had stopped skating except for Acciari, Bunting, ROR, Reilly, Schenn, McCabe, Holl, Kampf, JT, Nylander was the only other guy who seemed to be still working.

Matthews had 19 hit (only schenn and acciari who had more hit than matthews) 11 blocked shot ( highest number on both team). had more scoring chance than anybody on both team. 7 takeaway

Marner 13 hit, get hit 10 time, blocked 5 shot, 5 takeaway

Nylander.... 1 hit, 0 shot blocked, 7 hit taken, 2 takeaway... a guy who waited 527,32 minutes to finally having his first 5v5 pts. His first 2 goal with a men advantage came from 2 blowout vs tampa...Its not when leafs was trailing 3-0 on 2nd round he should finally gave a sign of life and its not because he did it at 3-0 when its was almost pratically over than we can considerated him like someone who cared about leafs succes...

 

[mikeyz]

F it. I say keep dubas, he has to suck it up and fire keefe. Keep the core 4 for 1 more uear unless matthews doesn't sign before July first. Bring in more grit to support our ballerinas.

Other then fire Keefe. NOOOOOOOOO!!! They cannot run this shit show back again.