Rumor: Rumours & Proposals Thread | Previous Poll Punted, Pristine Prospect Procurement Poll Pinned

Which of the recent prospect additions intrigues you the most?

  • Noah Philp coming out of retirement

  • Connor Ungar - Brock University (USPORTS)

  • James Stefan - Portland Winterhawks (WHL)

  • Marc Lajoie - Edmonton Oil Kings (WHL)


Results are only viewable after voting.

cruisecity

Registered User
May 24, 2024
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I’m not going to get into a tail chasing discussion on it…you’re giving them a blank signed cheque, and I’m saying if you want to build a competitive team that doesn’t need to rely on 16 game win streaks to get into the playoff picture, then they need to leave some in the table and not max out to be a perennial cup threat. Toronto has a lot of money tied up in four guys. Good regular season team, can’t do shit in the playoffs. They’ve had no money to acquire decent middle and bottom pair d-men and a decent goalie, which should sound pretty familiar.

It’s not uncommon for players to take that discount to keep a competitive team, the Sedins did it as well as many others. If it pisses of the NHLPA, well…f*** ‘em.
There is a strange adage about giving certain players a blank cheque. Never understood that. We've seen what happens when you do that. Sure, the best players should be rewarded for their play and value to the club. Competitive, Cup winning teams have depth and their top guys are on good deals.

There was some stat going around where no team has won the Cup with someone making 10+ million in however many decades.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

Registered User
Feb 19, 2003
15,759
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Vancouver
It's really not that complicated. Nurse is a good player who eats a lot of minutes and brings a lot to the team during the regular season. However as things tighten up, competition gets harder and players are expected to elevate, Nurse fails to deliver.

We are kinda stuck with Nurse. He needs more confidence and a partner that unlocks him to play his game. This is why adding a capable top 4 RHD is so important this offseason. Hopefully we will get two dmen for the price of one, just like how Ekholm unlocked Bouchard. I mean probably to a lesser degree but Nurse has really struggled to find his role on this team without playing with McDavid.

The last thing Edmonton should do is blow up the team. You can't get rid of the baby with the bath water.
Yup. It's always been about a much required defense upgrade. They needed two top 4 d-men and solved half the issue while stabilizing Bouchard's development. Finding a quality veteran two-way defender with high hockey smarts and structured game has been missing to run with wild horse Nurse.
 

Oilhawks

Song to Hall Up High
Nov 24, 2011
27,456
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I’m not going to get into a tail chasing discussion on it…you’re giving them a blank signed cheque, and I’m saying if you want to build a competitive team that doesn’t need to rely on 16 game win streaks to get into the playoff picture, then they need to leave some in the table and not max out to be a perennial cup threat. Toronto has a lot of money tied up in four guys. Good regular season team, can’t do shit in the playoffs. They’ve had no money to acquire decent middle and bottom pair d-men and a decent goalie, which should sound pretty familiar.

It’s not uncommon for players to take that discount to keep a competitive team, the Sedins did it as well as many others. If it pisses of the NHLPA, well…f*** ‘em.

Part of the problem with Toronto is they have that money tied up in 4 forwards, only one of which seems to elevate or produce in the playoffs. The Oilers would have it tied up in two forwards and 2 d men (unfortunately Nurse is one of them)
 

cruisecity

Registered User
May 24, 2024
95
123
Part of the problem with Toronto is they have that money tied up in 4 forwards, only one of which seems to elevate or produce in the playoffs. The Oilers would have it tied up in two forwards and 2 d men (unfortunately Nurse is one of them)
I admit I have reservations still with Bouchard. He has some better skills than Barrie for sure, but still struggles mightily. Dropping a huge contract on a guy like that is a risk just as much as Nurse was. Let's not forget Tyson Barrie led the league in points for defencemen one year playing with these guys.

I would be wary of giving him 10+ a year.
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
25,833
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Waterloo Ontario
There is nice such thing as effective dead cap space. It’s a term you literally made up and a false theory that, again, you just made up. Cup winning teams don’t have dead cap space. Florida doesn’t, Colorado didn’t, Tampa didn’t. You literally have to max out payroll.

Like I’ve said many times. What Skinner has been throughout his playoff career is what Campbell was his one year here in the regular season. Campbell is a superior playoff goalie.

You worry about retained cap because it’s money you can’t use to build out your roster. Let’s use your example, you retain 2M on Nurse. You add one Neal’s buyout of 1.9M and add on Campbell. Your dead cap is now 2M+1.9M+1.3M (at Campbell’s lowest or 2.6 at his highest). That’s 5.3M to 6.6M. You know the quality of players you can get with 6.6M in cap space accruing at the deadline? Forget the deadline, at the beginning of the year. How would the oilers look now with say Guentzal, Henrique, Carrick, a top d man, and probably another top 6 at the deadline. You can’t throw money away. Not when games are this tight and teams are this close.
You're a numbers guy I believe. If so I am finding your reasoning in this regard to be highly confusing. Suppose that the Oilers could find a back up who is better than Campbell for $1M. Even if they had $2.6M in dead cap space from his buyout they would still have $1.4M more space to spend for improvements elsewhere than they would with Campbell in that role. How is that not a better use of the cap??? Now you can argue that Campbell will bounce back but I don't think the organization sees it that way. I'd be quite shocked if Campbell is an Oiler in September.

In the Nurse scenario lets say that Ekholm 2.0 dropped into the Oilers lap at $6M. You could have that player and $1.5M in additional cap space by moving Nurse with $2M retained. Of course this scenario is far more of a stretch than for Campbell. But if such an opportunity presented itself how would the team not be better off.
 
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MessierII

Registered User
Aug 10, 2011
28,138
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And ten million Bouchard

He said 40 mill for three players

Good luck building a cup team. Nurse has to be gone. Campbell. Ceci. Gm would have to find many contributing value contracts. Skinner ain't it either
We are 3 years away from all that being on the books though. We have everyone under the same deal next year. The year after that Drai and Bouch kick in the year after that McDavid. Not like it all happens at once next year.
 

Oilhawks

Song to Hall Up High
Nov 24, 2011
27,456
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I admit I have reservations still with Bouchard. He has some better skills than Barrie for sure, but still struggles mightily. Dropping a huge contract on a guy like that is a risk just as much as Nurse was. Let's not forget Tyson Barrie led the league in points for defencemen one year playing with these guys.

I would be wary of giving him 10+ a year.

He's not a perfect defender, but he's grown by leaps and bounds in that regard this year

In any case, points earn dollars. Bouchard put up a PPG along with 18 goals this season. His second best season also matches Nurse's best at 43. Barrie peaked at 59 and Bouchard is arguably a better defender than Barrie ever was,

He's going to get paid, and rightfully so. Letting another team be the one to pay him would be beyond foolish IMO

This fanbase whines and moans whenever they lack an OFD, and now that they have one of the best in the league, they don't want to pay him.
 

cruisecity

Registered User
May 24, 2024
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123
He's not a perfect defender, but he's grown by leaps and bounds in that regard this year

In any case, points earn dollars. Bouchard put up a PPG along with 18 goals this season. His second best season also matches Nurse's best at 43. Barrie peaked at 59 and Bouchard is arguably a better defender than Barrie ever was,

He's going to get paid, and rightfully so. Letting another team be the one to pay him would be beyond foolish IMO

This fanbase whines and moans whenever they lack an OFD, and now that they have one of the best in the league, they don't want to pay him.
Happy to pay him, only noting the cautionary tales of the past. Perhaps we can bridge him somehow for the final couple kicks at the can.
 

MessierII

Registered User
Aug 10, 2011
28,138
17,126
He's not a perfect defender, but he's grown by leaps and bounds in that regard this year

In any case, points earn dollars. Bouchard put up a PPG along with 18 goals this season. His second best season also matches Nurse's best at 43. Barrie peaked at 59 and Bouchard is arguably a better defender than Barrie ever was,

He's going to get paid, and rightfully so. Letting another team be the one to pay him would be beyond foolish IMO

This fanbase whines and moans whenever they lack an OFD, and now that they have one of the best in the league, they don't want to pay him.
Bouchard will get better defensively too. A lot of his mistakes are fixable things. He just needs to learn to recognize danger better and be more assertive when he does. The rest of his defensive game has improved by leaps so far and he’s still a young guy. His issues can improve with experience.
 

McDoused

Registered User
Feb 5, 2007
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Bouchard will get better defensively too. A lot of his mistakes are fixable things. He just needs to learn to recognize danger better and be more assertive when he does. The rest of his defensive game has improved by leaps so far and he’s still a young guy. His issues can improve with experience.

Hes looked tired and exposed a bit in the finals trying to play 30+ minutes. It's pivotal that we get someone else to play behind him that's not named Ceci or Desharnais
 
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Bryanbryoil

Pray For Ukraine
Sep 13, 2004
86,491
35,561
Hes looked tired and exposed a bit in the finals trying to play 30+ minutes. It's pivotal that we get someone else to play behind him that's not named Ceci or Desharnais
He's the youngest of our core players and the least experienced. This run should be great for him to learn from for the future.
 

foshizzle

Registered User
Feb 1, 2007
5,128
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Your a numbers guy I believe. If so I am finding your reasoning in this regard to be highly confusing. Suppose that the Oilers could find a back up who is better than Campbell for $1M. Even if they had $2.6M in dead cap space from his buyout they would still have $1.4M more space to spend for improvements elsewhere than they would with Campbell in that role. How is that not a better use of the cap??? Now you can argue that Campbell will bounce back but I don't think the organization sees it that way. I'd be quite shocked if Campbell is an Oiler in September.

In the Nurse scenario lets say that Ekholm 2.0 dropped into the Oilers lap at $6M. You could have that player and $1.5M in additional cap space by moving Nurse with $2M retained. Of course this scenario is far more of a stretch than for Campbell. But if such an opportunity presented itself how would the team not be better off.
So- a better way, sometimes an easier way, is to look at dead cap as reduced cap space. So, say in your example, you buy out Campbell and his cap penalty is 2.6M. Say the overall cap is at 90M. You are immediately handcuffing yourself because you have 87.4M to fill out your roster and your competing with teams, let’s say Florida, who have a 90M cap to work with. You’re handicapping yourself for 6 years (length of the buyout). So, through McDavid’s prime years you have been trying to win a cup with a smaller cap than many of the top contenders. What does that mean- well- 2.6M accrued to the deadline is like an 8M player. Ad in retention and you could add two very good players. For a real life example - Neal’s 1.9M accrued to the deadline and the 2 mill they had could have gotten a Tanev (if Calgary dealt to us- just using it as an example) and Guentzal.

Now add in a Nurse retention of the 2M you mentioned. That’s 86M of cap space vs other teams 90M for 4 years, plus an additional 2 years for Campbell. Again, handicapping yourself during McDavid’s prime years. There is a reason why cup winning teams don’t have dead cap- you need to maximize your dollars. Using the same example 2M Nurse retained this summer, 1.3M Campbell buyout this summer, 1.9M Neal dead cap remaining, Browns 3M bonus. Say it’s Florida and Edmonton in the finals again next year. You are asking the Edmonton Oilers to build a team on 82M than what Florida can build on 90M (again, just using 90M as an example). The quality of player you can get for 8.3M- I’ll let you decide. That 8.3M accrued to the deadline is worth substantially more.

These numbers are hypothetical and players names are hypotheticals- it was just an example to show you why dead cap is a terrible, terrible way to manage your team. Last I checked, in the modern cap era- cup winning teams don’t have dead cap.

I hope my word salad kind of explains it.
 

CycloneSweep

Registered User
Sep 27, 2017
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So- a better way, sometimes an easier way, is to look at dead cap as reduced cap space. So, say in your example, you buy out Campbell and his cap penalty is 2.6M. Say the overall cap is at 90M. You are immediately handcuffing yourself because you have 87.4M to fill out your roster and your competing with teams, let’s say Florida, who have a 90M cap to work with. You’re handicapping yourself for 6 years (length of the buyout). So, through McDavid’s prime years you have been trying to win a cup with a smaller cap than many of the top contenders. What does that mean- well- 2.6M accrued to the deadline is like an 8M player. Ad in retention and you could add two very good players. For a real life example - Neal’s 1.9M accrued to the deadline and the 2 mill they had could have gotten a Tanev (if Calgary dealt to us- just using it as an example) and Guentzal.

Now add in a Nurse retention of the 2M you mentioned. That’s 86M of cap space vs other teams 90M for 4 years, plus an additional 2 years for Campbell. Again, handicapping yourself during McDavid’s prime years. There is a reason why cup winning teams don’t have dead cap- you need to maximize your dollars. Using the same example 2M Nurse retained this summer, 1.3M Campbell buyout this summer, 1.9M Neal dead cap remaining, Browns 3M bonus. Say it’s Florida and Edmonton in the finals again next year. You are asking the Edmonton Oilers to build a team on 82M than what Florida can build on 90M (again, just using 90M as an example). The quality of player you can get for 8.3M- I’ll let you decide. That 8.3M accrued to the deadline is worth substantially more.

These numbers are hypothetical and players names are hypotheticals- it was just an example to show you why dead cap is a terrible, terrible way to manage your team. Last I checked, in the modern cap era- cup winning teams don’t have dead cap.

I hope my word salad kind of explains it.
At the same time, if you are paying Jack Campbell 3.9 or whatever to play in the AHL, that’s reducing your cap by 3.9mill and that’s worse. Thats dead cap.
Florida has 1.2mill in dead cap right now from the Yandle buyout, and 3.4 mill in dead cap from Knight spending the entire year in the AHL. The point is we are in our cup window right now and the next 2 years at most. Unless you find a taker for Campbell’s entire contract you have dead cap. Retaining is better than having him the the AHL because you get more cap back. Buying him out has a similar effect.

Having dead cap is bad, but having wasted and bad cap on players is the same thing.
 
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BarDownBobo

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Oct 19, 2012
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He's not a perfect defender, but he's grown by leaps and bounds in that regard this year

In any case, points earn dollars. Bouchard put up a PPG along with 18 goals this season. His second best season also matches Nurse's best at 43. Barrie peaked at 59 and Bouchard is arguably a better defender than Barrie ever was,

He's going to get paid, and rightfully so. Letting another team be the one to pay him would be beyond foolish IMO

This fanbase whines and moans whenever they lack an OFD, and now that they have one of the best in the league, they don't want to pay him.
To me the key thing is that there’s no rush to extend Bouchard right now. He’s under contract next year and still a RFA after so they’ve got control. The biggest problem with Nurse is that they extended him a year out coming off of a career year, before I’m offering 9-10+ for Bouchard I wanna see him do it again. Preferably with a different partner too, since Ekholm is already 34 so realistically you can only expect him to be able to maintain the top pairing level that he’s at for another 3/4 years realistically.
 

foshizzle

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Feb 1, 2007
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At the same time, if you are paying Jack Campbell 3.9 or whatever to play in the AHL, that’s reducing your cap by 3.9mill and that’s worse. Thats dead cap.
Florida has 1.2mill in dead cap right now from the Yandle buyout, and 3.4 mill in dead cap from Knight spending the entire year in the AHL. The point is we are in our cup window right now and the next 2 years at most. Unless you find a taker for Campbell’s entire contract you have dead cap. Retaining is better than having him the the AHL because you get more cap back. Buying him out has a similar effect.

Having dead cap is bad, but having wasted and bad cap on players is the same thing.
Let’s look at this objectively. Jack Campbell had a .880 save % last year in 36 games. Stuart Skinner this year had an .893 this year. Stuart Skinner gave you last year Jack Campbell performance. The difference between Jack Campbell being a .917 save % goalie is 1 save a game. Can Campbell find 1 more save a game under Knob’s defensive system? If you think the answer is yes, than burying him in the AHL is stupid and buying him out is even dumber. Campbell’s “unplayable” year is what Skinner gave the Oilers this year. Having Campbell be your starter next year, at the very least, puts the team in the very same position as this year. Difference is Campbell is a proven playoff performer. So, tell me, why would you buy him out? Problem is too many people rely on perception. Campbell was sent down purely due to contract.

My logic is simple. You don’t buy out Campbell. At worst, he gives you the same year Skinner did this season and is a good playoff goalie (that’s at Campbell playing at his career worst). You move Skinner, get an asset that is decent value and attach it to Nurse to try to move him (assumption he waives his NTC).

You’re making a bunch of assumptions and worst case scenarios.
 

Fishy McScales

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Apr 22, 2006
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I would pray he accepts being moved to another club out on the west coast or something. Feels like if you truly care about this group you would realize how badly you're f***ing our chances at building a great team here, move out to one of the pacific beaches and raise your family for a few years.

Duncan Keith gave up 5.5 million dollars because he knew he was a burden. Maybe he got paid off in other ways outside of the NHL but let's not forget how integral and selfless that was of Keith. He was there last night telling the group in the dressing room about how they went down 0-3 against Vancouver one year and clawed back to go to overtime in game 7.

You move Nurse and as many picks/prospects as necessary to get him out with that cap space saved, then bank on free agents wanting to sign here for a Cup run.
Keith gave up about a million.

I'm touched by your perception of altruism, though. I'm sure you would do something like that too.
 

CycloneSweep

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Sep 27, 2017
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Let’s look at this objectively. Jack Campbell had a .880 save % last year in 36 games. Stuart Skinner this year had an .893 this year. Stuart Skinner gave you last year Jack Campbell performance. The difference between Jack Campbell being a .917 save % goalie is 1 save a game. Can Campbell find 1 more save a game under Knob’s defensive system? If you think the answer is yes, than burying him in the AHL is stupid and buying him out is even dumber. Campbell’s “unplayable” year is what Skinner gave the Oilers this year. Having Campbell be your starter next year, at the very least, puts the team in the very same position as this year. Difference is Campbell is a proven playoff performer. So, tell me, why would you buy him out? Problem is too many people rely on perception. Campbell was sent down purely due to contract.

My logic is simple. You don’t buy out Campbell. At worst, he gives you the same year Skinner did this season and is a good playoff goalie (that’s at Campbell playing at his career worst). You move Skinner, get an asset that is decent value and attach it to Nurse to try to move him (assumption he waives his NTC).

You’re making a bunch of assumptions and worst case scenarios.
Campbell isn’t an NHL goalie. He has proven that. Again.
 

CycloneSweep

Registered User
Sep 27, 2017
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So your counter to my point was a laughing emoji? Cool. You’re on my ignore list now. Also, Campbell’s last year numbers were the same as Skinner’s this year. But let’s ignore that
If he was an NHL goalie he would have been playing instead of Pickard.

So having Campbell be at best a below average goalie is better than trading him and have a better goalie in his place AND we have a better cap situation?
 

syz

[1, 5, 6, 14]
Jul 13, 2007
30,211
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If Broberg can play NHL minutes they'll need him to do so next year. You pencil him in to the 3rd pairing, find a vet to pair with him (probably ends up being Kulak since he's got a year left), and you do whatever you have to do to dump Ceci and replace him with a legitimate top 4 right shot.

Ekholm-Bouchard
Nurse-NewGuy
Broberg-Veteran
Desharnais
 
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timekeep

Registered User
Apr 28, 2010
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To me the key thing is that there’s no rush to extend Bouchard right now. He’s under contract next year and still a RFA after so they’ve got control. The biggest problem with Nurse is that they extended him a year out coming off of a career year, before I’m offering 9-10+ for Bouchard I wanna see him do it again. Preferably with a different partner too, since Ekholm is already 34 so realistically you can only expect him to be able to maintain the top pairing level that he’s at for another 3/4 years realistically.
No rush to sign this off season.
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
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Waterloo Ontario
I would pray he accepts being moved to another club out on the west coast or something. Feels like if you truly care about this group you would realize how badly you're f***ing our chances at building a great team here, move out to one of the pacific beaches and raise your family for a few years.

Duncan Keith gave up 5.5 million dollars because he knew he was a burden. Maybe he got paid off in other ways outside of the NHL but let's not forget how integral and selfless that was of Keith. He was there last night telling the group in the dressing room about how they went down 0-3 against Vancouver one year and clawed back to go to overtime in game 7.

You move Nurse and as many picks/prospects as necessary to get him out with that cap space saved, then bank on free agents wanting to sign here for a Cup run.
Keith actually gave up $1.5M to spend more time with his son. I do agree that he was probably aware that his cap cost was a burden. But the situations are quite different. Keith was probably ready to hang them up.

I personally would be surprised to see Nurse moved. I doubt he wants to leave and even if he would consider moving on, I doubt he would do so to just any team. Frankly a team like Utah may be one of the only possible options.
 
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