Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | Where's The Beef?

[VeteranPresence]

That 9M is only for this year.

A $97M cap?

 

[foshizzle]

The bolded is not actually the way it works. If the Oilers put a player on LTIR during the season the cap that they are at at that point becomes the new ceiling. So it they were at $87M when they put Kane on LTIR that would be their new ceiling. TO accrue space they would have to be under $87M.

At the beginning of the this season the Oilers manipulated their cap so that they were almost exactly at the ceiling. Then they put Kane on LTIR setting their new ceiling at just a hair below the $88.5M number. Then the sent down players so that they were under this new ceiling and hence were accruing space.

We are saying the same thing. I just used hypothetical numbers vs the exact numbers.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

I agree with Bruce

 

[Jarvi]

I agree with Bruce

Agreed.

I don't think he is the solution to the D, but it will give us an idea of what our team would look like if we target one of the more offensive, puckmoving LHD rather than a true RHD to partner up with Darnell. Gotta think he is a step or two above Dermott and Brown as well, maybe even Stech.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Smith seems like a guy that needs to get himself established on a weaker team. We don't have time for projects like him IMO. We could use him in the AHL I'm sure but we'd likely have to trade for him once he clears waivers if that's the plan.

 

[TheNumber4]

I never liked Ty Smith. Didn’t like him as a prospect, didn’t like him when he was offered up as a trade target years later. Didn’t think his offence would translate to the NHL. Too reliant on a wrister from the blue line as a prospect. Thought his offensive skills were overrated. And always worried about his size without the necessary skill to overcome it.

That said I can never argue with the cost of FREE. And I always like the home town storyline possibly unlocking something in him. It’s just too bad he’s not a RHD, we’d have a room to take a Flyer on that side. We’re full up on the left side though, doesn’t seem like a fit.

 

[Jarvi]

I never liked Ty Smith. Didn’t like him as a prospect, didn’t like him when he was offered up as a trade target years later. Didn’t think his offence would translate to the NHL. Too reliant on a wrister from the blue line as a prospect. Thought his offensive skills were overrated. And always worried about his size without the necessary skill to overcome it.

That said I can never argue with the cost of FREE. And I always like the home town storyline possibly unlocking something in him. It’s just too bad he’s not a RHD, we’d have a room to take a Flyer on that side. We’re full up on the left side though, doesn’t seem like a fit.

There is smoke out there that we are looking at a #5LHD to platoon with Kulak between anchoring the bottom pair and beside Nurse. I don't love the idea, especially the having Kulak as a #4 part, but this could be a cheap way to test run that idea, trading for a #5 puckmoving LHD rather than a #4 RHD, before the playoffs and see if it's worth investing significant assets into.

Fully healthy, yeah we are stacked at LHD on the main roster. But there is no depth there, 1 injury and we're moving a RH guy to their offside or calling up our only AHL LHD in Cam Dineen. Not ideal. Not that he was anything special, but its why losing Dermott kinda sucked.

 

[TheNumber4]

There is smoke out there that we are looking at a #5LHD to platoon with Kulak between anchoring the bottom pair and beside Nurse. I don't love the idea, especially the having Kulak as a #4 part, but this could be a cheap way to test run that idea, trading for a #5 puckmoving LHD rather than a #4 RHD, before the playoffs and see if it's worth investing significant assets into.

Fully healthy, yeah we are stacked at LHD on the main roster. But there is no depth there, 1 injury and we're moving a RH guy to their offside or calling up our only AHL LHD in Cam Dineen. Not ideal. Not that he was anything special, but it’s why losing Dermott kinda sucked.

Isn’t the theory more-so to test a stay at home 3rd pair LHD vet that could keep one of either Emberson/Stecher afloat in the 3rd pair role. Then see if Nurse-Kulak continues to be a thing?

If Ty Smith just isn’t a viable NHLer at this point I don’t know how much we learn from this experiment. Let’s say he comes in and fails in that role, does it really tell us if say Pettersson or Murphy would fail in that role? I guess we would get a good look at Nurse-Kulak some more though, but we could do that right now.

That said LHD depth as you’ve mentioned isn’t great. So if we can get him through waivers and into the AHL as a depth option maybe the flyer makes sense. I think Ty Smith is a guy who’s going to need to redefine himself, like how Kris Russel was an offensive D-man in juniors and needed to completely change his game to something else in the NHL. That kind of makeover will need time in the AHL. At the cost of free and for a hometown kid, i wouldn’t be opposed to making that bet.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Intriguing player

 

[Jarvi]

Isn’t the theory more-so to test a stay at home 3rd pair LHD vet that could keep one of either Emberson/Stecher afloat in the 3rd pair role. Then see if Nurse-Kulak continues to be a thing?

If Ty Smith just isn’t a viable NHLer at this point I don’t know how much we learn from this experiment. Let’s say he comes in and fails in that role, does it really tell us if say Pettersson or Murphy would fail in that role? I guess we would get a good look at Nurse-Kulak some more though, but we could do that right now.

That said LHD depth as you’ve mentioned isn’t great. So if we can get him through waivers and into the AHL as a depth option maybe the flyer makes sense. I think Ty Smith is a guy who’s going to need to redefine himself, like how Kris Russel was an offensive D-man in juniors and needed to completely change his game to something else in the NHL. That kind of makeover will need time in the AHL. At the cost of free and for a hometown kid, i wouldn’t be opposed to making that bet.

I don't neccessarily disagree with your premise of a stay at home LHD, just that I haven't heard it as much. Like Mike Matheson has been the big name about, and I wouldn't consider him a stay at home guy at all. Who are you thinking?

I kinda think any D we aqcuire needs to be able to move the puck well though. Emberson and Nurse both could use a partner who can help in that regard, and we only have 1 Kulak and Stecher shouldn't be a regular come playoffs, imo. As an aside, I want them to try Ekholm-Emberson for a stretch, but not neccessarily as a pairing through the playoffs.

Like if Smith blows chunks individually, yeah it's hard to tell if it works. But then you just waive him, hope he can go down and help your AHL club and you are in the same position you are now. But if he is adequate and Nurse-Kulak excels, it let's us know that Matheson really could work out well and it adds some depth to a position we need it come playoffs.

 

[TheNumber4]

I don't neccessarily disagree with your premise of a stay at home LHD, just that I haven't heard it as much. Like Mike Matheson has been the big name about, and I wouldn't consider him a stay at home guy at all. Who are you thinking?

I kinda think any D we aqcuire needs to be able to move the puck well though. Emberson and Nurse both could use a partner who can help in that regard, and we only have 1 Kulak and Stecher shouldn't be a regular come playoffs, imo. As an aside, I want them to try Ekholm-Emberson for a stretch, but not neccessarily as a pairing through the playoffs.

Like if Smith blows chunks individually, yeah it's hard to tell if it works. But then you just waive him, hope he can go down and help your AHL club and you are in the same position you are now. But if he is adequate and Nurse-Kulak excels, it let's us know that Matheson really could work out well and it adds some depth to a position we need it come playoffs.

I agree. I do want a 2 way defenceman with more of a bend towards offense. I should have said VET defenceman, not vet “stay at home” defenceman.

Most of my focus this year has been on how to get a puck moving 4RHD. And keep Kulak in the 3rd pair role to help Emberson along. But considering the absolutel shitty RHD market we’re looking at. I need to start considering the plan B, which yes should also include a puck mover in the 3LHD spot.

I won’t ever argue against the cost of FREE. I’m just saying we don’t learn that much from this experiment. We can already figure out if Nurse-Kulak is a viable pairing. Smith working out in a 3rd pair still doesn’t give us much confidence in the Smith-Emberson pair in the playoffs.

 

[McDNicks17]

I don't really get the appeal of Smith.

He's basically just an offensive defenseman without offense.

 

[Jarvi]

I don't really get the appeal of Smith.

He's basically just an offensive defenseman without offense.

Averages 30 pts/82g on his career in 18 minutes a game. Basically double Kulak or Stechers career averages with about a minute more a game on avg. That's pretty good production. I don't think his offense is in question, it's whether he is a complete pylon compared to Stecher/Brown defensively.

For free, and with a lack of depth at the position, why not?

 

[McDNicks17]

Averages 30 pts/82g on his career in 18 minutes a game. Basically double Kulak or Stechers career averages with about a minute more a game on avg. That's pretty good production. I don't think his offense is in question, it's whether he is a complete pylon compared to Stecher/Brown defensively.

For free, and with a lack of depth at the position, why not?

I tend to just look at 5v5 since no one is going to coming here to play on the PP. He averages about 20 points/82games(and 90% of that is from like five years ago) there which is basically defensive defenseman territory.

I'd avoid throwing a young defensive disaster beside Emberson, IMO. The risk of torpedoing him isn't worth it.

 

[Jarvi]

I tend to just look at 5v5 since no one is going to coming here to play on the PP. He averages about 20 points/82games(and 90% of that is from like five years ago) there which is basically defensive defenseman territory.

I'd avoid throwing a young defensive disaster beside Emberson, IMO. The risk of torpedoing him isn't worth it.

I disagree. I think having another weapon on PP2 could be valuable, especially if Knob plans on running McDrai together more often at evens. Give the other guys a shot more often and it can rest the big guys a bit for when the games really matter. Idk if he'd get a ton of time there, but knowing he can pick up points with the extra man doesn't hurt his value.

And his 21pts/82 is still significantly better than Kulak/Stecher whom everyone has considered decently good puck movers on this squad. He would be top 4 for ES PTS/82 for Dmen here, halfway between a Kulak and a Mike Matheson. That's not a bad player offensively.

I conceded he could be a disaster defensively, I'm not arguing that. But he does have offensive skills, and maybe our overall team D and our coaching could help him in the defensive end. Also, if Emberson is gonna "torpedo" from playing a few games with a defensively inept partner, trade him now because that would make him a weaker player mentally than Jack Campbell. It's trying out a waiver pickup on the bottom pair for a few games, not throwing him out for 25 minutes a night against elites for half a season.

 

[mouser]

Lets just send out the Bat Signal. @mouser Perhaps you can weigh in on how accrued space meshes with LTIR with a deadline acquisition. Puckpedia has created some confusion.

I’m not sure whether Puckpedia has everything perfectly correct, we don’t usually have these situations comes up at the deadline where a team has accrued cap space and a player already on LTIR,

What I do know for certain is that when teams have a LTIR player but are under the ACSL (Accruable Cap Space Limit) and accruing cap space they don’t burn through all of the accrued space before LTIR relief kicks in. For example the Oilers have used the Kane LTIR relief at times this season to call up players. Doing so did not exhaust all of the accrued cap space Edmonton had saved prior to using Kane’s LTIR—Edmonton kept the accrued cap space after they stopped using LTIR relief from Kane.

On that basis I’m inclined to believe Puckpedia is correct. If recalling a player during the season doesn’t exhaust all of the accumulated cap space to date before LTIR relief kicks in then acquiring a player at the trade deadline shouldn’t use up all of the accumulated space first before LTIR relief either.

 

[mouser]

I’m not entirely sure how things work but I think Fourier kind of touched on it earlier that technically they wouldn’t be able to use both on one transaction.

As far as I understand the team can have Kane on IR with his cap hit counted under the 88M upper limit so they are accruing cap space but it means they don’t have enough space to run a full 23 man roster. But at times because of short term injuries or wanting to run a full roster they’ve put him on ltir to do so but during those times they stop accruing because they’re into their ltir pool (which they maximized at the start of the year by getting as close to the upper limit as possible before putting him on ltir). But when healthy and comfortable running a 21-22 man roster they can put Kane back on IR and be out of ltir and go back to accruing as much cap as possible.

In the lead up to the deadline, they can have Kane on IR, acquire a player with their accrued cap space and then after that when accruing doesn’t matter anymore they can send Kane back to ltir and use basically his entire cap hit (because they maximized that ltir pool with their move at the start of the year) of course as long as they are sure that Kane won’t be returning before the end of the regular season, which seems likely at this point.

Not exactly sure if this is entirely correct but it seems like that’s how they’ve been operating.

Once a player is on LTIR they remain on LTIR until cleared as fit to play by the team doctor(s) or the season (League Year) ends (June 30th). Teams can’t switch players back and forth from IR to LTIR.

Kane has been on LTIR the entire season. The wrinkle is that Edmonton has only utilized Kane’s LTIR relief to exceed the salary cap for a small # of days this season, while being under the cap and accumulating cap space most days.

 

[McDNicks17]

I disagree. I think having another weapon on PP2 could be valuable, especially if Knob plans on running McDrai together more often at evens. Give the other guys a shot more often and it can rest the big guys a bit for when the games really matter. Idk if he'd get a ton of time there, but knowing he can pick up points with the extra man doesn't hurt his value.

And his 21pts/82 is still significantly better than Kulak/Stecher whom everyone has considered decently good puck movers on this squad. He would be top 4 for ES PTS/82 for Dmen here, halfway between a Kulak and a Mike Matheson. That's not a bad player offensively.

I conceded he could be a disaster defensively, I'm not arguing that. But he does have offensive skills, and maybe our overall team D and our coaching could help him in the defensive end. Also, if Emberson is gonna "torpedo" from playing a few games with a defensively inept partner, trade him now because that would make him a weaker player mentally than Jack Campbell. It's trying out a waiver pickup on the bottom pair for a few games, not throwing him out for 25 minutes a night against elites for half a season.

I just don't think the logic tracks.

If he could provide significantly more offense than Kulak or Stecher, he wouldn't be on his third team and going through waivers for the third time since he had his first extended cup of coffee in the NHL five years ago.

 

[Jarvi]

I just don't think the logic tracks.

If he could provide significantly more offense than Kulak or Stecher, he wouldn't be on his third team and going through waivers for the third time since he had his first extended cup of coffee in the NHL five years ago.

25% is significantly more. Teams have different needs, and he is still only 24 same age as Emberson. At 24 Justin Schultz was looking like trash for us, funnily enough maxing out at 21 ES pts in 82 games in his best season w us. At 25 he was traded. At 26 he was scoring 31 ES points en route to a cup w the Pens.

I just don't see the downside in trying it when we have zero depth at LD and we are currently considering trading for a puckmoving LHD. Why not see if the free guy is a fit for a few games?

 

[VeteranPresence]

Bowman and Jackson managing like clowns and sure enough the circus is on display in Chicago tonight. Who could have thought ignoring goaltending and defense would lead to even bad NHL teams victimizing you?

 

[McDNicks17]

25% is significantly more. Teams have different needs, and he is still only 24 same age as Emberson. At 24 Justin Schultz was looking like trash for us, funnily enough maxing out at 21 ES pts in 82 games in his best season w us. At 25 he was traded. At 26 he was scoring 31 ES points en route to a cup w the Pens.

I just don't see the downside in trying it when we have zero depth at LD and we are currently considering trading for a puckmoving LHD. Why not see if the free guy is a fit for a few games?

I don't really see the lack of depth at LD. If anything it's probably the single strongest spot on the team with Ekholm, Nurse and Kulak, IMO.

There's only rumours about the team looking at a LH PMD because they could play on the right side beside Nurse. You can pretty much guarantee Smith isn't going to ever fill that spot this season, so I'm not really sure why he'd be worth the dice roll.

 

[Fourier]

I’m not sure whether Puckpedia has everything perfectly correct, we don’t usually have these situations comes up at the deadline where a team has accrued cap space and a player already on LTIR,

What I do know for certain is that when teams have a LTIR player but are under the ACSL (Accruable Cap Space Limit) and accruing cap space they don’t burn through all of the accrued space before LTIR relief kicks in. For example the Oilers have used the Kane LTIR relief at times this season to call up players. Doing so did not exhaust all of the accrued cap space Edmonton had saved prior to using Kane’s LTIR—Edmonton kept the accrued cap space after they stopped using LTIR relief from Kane.

On that basis I’m inclined to believe Puckpedia is correct. If recalling a player during the season doesn’t exhaust all of the accumulated cap space to date before LTIR relief kicks in then acquiring a player at the trade deadline shouldn’t use up all of the accumulated space first before LTIR relief either.

Thanks as always!!

Puckpedia's original statement as I understand it was that the Oilers could use their accrued space or LTIR room but not both. This is kind of an ambiguous statement. But my original interpretation was that they could not combine the two on the same player. Even if this is the case, they should be able to use the existing accrued cap space without losing access to LTIR. Otherwise it does not make sense to me.

Like you said this is an unusual situation for sure. I guess in the end we will see what it means as the deadline plays out.

 

[Jarvi]

I don't really see the lack of depth at LD. If anything it's probably the single strongest spot on the team with Ekholm, Nurse and Kulak, IMO.

There's only rumours about the team looking at a LH PMD because they could play on the right side beside Nurse. You can pretty much guarantee Smith isn't going to ever fill that spot this season, so I'm not really sure why he'd be worth the dice roll.

And beyond Kulak we have Dineen and thats it. Very little depth there at an organization level, despite being strong on the main roster when everyone is healthy. If he falters, send him down and if he passes through, he can help balance AHL pairings if they feel the need.

Kulak has played well beside Nurse, so if you don't think Smith can handle the top 4 you put Kulak beside Nurse, and have Smith play with Emberson. If Smith shows better than Stecher, it's pretty easy to make it work even if you don't think he is the ideal player because he won't be replacing an ideal player. Yet again, he is free and zero risk.

 

[Jumptheshark]

I agree with Bruce

My guess is you have not seen him play since the 21/22 season. He has looked in the AHL but at the NHL level something goes wrong

 

[mouser]

Thanks as always!!

Puckpedia's original statement as I understand it was that the Oilers could use their accrued space or LTIR room but not both. This is kind of an ambiguous statement. But my original interpretation was that they could not combine the two on the same player. Even if this is the case, they should be able to use the existing accrued cap space without losing access to LTIR. Otherwise it does not make sense to me.

Like you said this is an unusual situation for sure. I guess in the end we will see what it means as the deadline plays out.

I don’t believe the bolded is correct. The empirical examples we have so far strongly imply that teams with a player on LTIR can’t choose whether to exhaust their accrued cap space first before using LTIR relief—it appears to be automatic that LTIR relief is activated first while accumulated cap space remains unused.

It would make sense if Puckpedia is accurate that teams could choose to pick one or the other, but not both. Most of the LTIR implementation details are not publicly available. If a team had more accrued cap space then their available LTIR relief from a fairness view offering the option to use the accrued cap space instead of LTIR relief seems like a fair option to me.