Jimmi McJenkins
Sometimes miracles
Fair, I thought he had been better, it's likely why they didn't trade for him. Either way, I stand my point about Pickard.
Rumors Proposals Thread Post Deadline Apocalypse 3rd Times A Charm Stu Stu Stupider Management May the Schwartz be with You
- Thread starter Bryanbryoil
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Fourier
Registered User
I have no problem with Pickard at his cap hit if they got a legitimate upgrade to Skinner. He has done his job very well for a backup.
Jimmi McJenkins
Sometimes miracles
Sure, he might need to be able to start 2 games in a row without falling completely apart, that's still my concern.
Behind Enemy Lines
Registered User
Interesting note. Pickard played in 47 NHL games from 2017-18 to 2021-22 then wandered in the AHL desert for a year before landing in the Oilers organization as a depth tender behind a Campbell unknown Skinner tandem. His NHL numbers during that time as a journeyman within four organizations were .857 3.83 in Toronto; .892 3.61 Arizona; .863 4.01 Philadelphia; .853 4.04 with Detroit.
Post Nice guy Jack's epic implosion, Pickard has been reborn as a cheap NHL back-up with seasons of .909 2.45 and this year .902 2.60 and three critical NHL playoff games of .915 2.21. All Oil results on salaries of $762,500 one-way AHL/NHL deal and now a $1 million deal.
So weird thought. Coaching gets scorched for Skinner's erratic play as a development phase goaltender with erratic play. Shouldn't there then be some credit for polishing a journeyman into a cheap, viable NHL back-up including this age 31 goaltender's only NHL playoff starts. Or perhaps the goaltender coach effect is overrated? haha
The fireable offense is Schwartz and Holland Jr. identifying Campbell as this team's big money window goaltending. The flawed cheap fallbacks are working to keep their heads above water. Management has chosen to run with cheap contingency instead of paying assets and money for a quality NHL veteran 1A/1B tandem. Management has failed this team moreso than the flawed guys between the pipes.
Jimmi McJenkins
Sometimes miracles
Yeah Schwartz is trash and I think it's more Pickard doing well enough behind a good defensive team. He's an athletic, reaction goalie and that can work with this team sometimes. See the better version, Mike Smith.
Dustin Schwartz MUST be fired.
Behind Enemy Lines
Registered User
Oh okay. So he's the reason for Skinner failing but no credit for Pickard exceeding for the first time in a decade.
A third option is the goaltending coach effect is overrated.
Jimmi McJenkins
Sometimes miracles
Yup, you noticed that too right? If anything the now departed Sylvan Rodrigue might have more do to with Pickard's upward movement, because his son was previously trending better, before his departure.
No, it's been a f***ing decade +, Schwartz doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. The guy who played the best for this team over that time was the guy who didn't listen to a f***ing word he said, Mike Smith.
You're fundamental wrong about your 3rd opinion, because you can see with Dubnyk after he stared the end of his career in the face, hell look at Minnesota, Flip Gustafsson washed out of Ottawa, started working the goalie coaches there, and is a high end starter now.
I think people here thing they don't matter, because they don't assume things can get better.
Paralyzer
Hyman >>> Matthews
Behind Enemy Lines
Registered User
Okay so Rodrigue gets credit. No credit for Schwartz. Got it.
Smith and most goalies have their own goaltending coach that supplement organizational coaching. He and now Skinner have both supplemented their organization coaching with Francilla who specializes in neurological and movement.
Dubnyk in Arizona identified needing to work on his self and his own approach in Arizona to the game as the biggest factor in re-setting as an elite pedigree goaltender that Edmonton ran into the ditch.
Ian Clark emphasizes 7 key ingredients for elite goaltending: athleticism, compatibility, mental toughness, competitiveness, instinct, creativity, and a strong work ethic. Coaching for technique and refinement is one element of these core seven.
Here's a breakdown of these elements:
- Athleticism: The ability to move quickly and react to the puck is crucial.
- Compatibility: Finding the right fit between a goaltender's strengths and the team's needs is important.
- Mental Toughness: Goaltenders need to be able to handle pressure and stay focused in tough situations.
- Competitiveness: A strong competitive drive is essential for pushing oneself to become a better goaltender.
- Instinct: Developing the ability to react instinctively to pucks and situations is key.
- Creativity: Being able to find unique solutions in difficult moments is important.
- Work Ethic: A strong work ethic is necessary to constantly improve and develop as a goaltender.
The current tandem is a flawed mid-level organization prospect and a journeyman that's earned his NHL success through the work put in. Strangely (or not), the team seems content to ride with these guys even super elites Draisaitl and McDavid who in contract renewal years could have easily pushed behind the scenes for an upgrade in this critical area.
This is not a support of Schwartz. It poses a question that the goaltending coaching function is overrated. I just don't believe it's a simple binary reality. The big fail in Edmonton has been management decisions to rely on old, retread goalies and a hope and pray approach to try to find NHL level goaltending with a volume draft approach with mid to late round hope picks. And their decision to push all the Window chips in on a terrible evaluation process that led to Jack Campbell.
EDIT: Just to add, the irony is your example of Gustaffson. He's working with the goaltender coach Frederic Chabot who was in place in Edmonton when Dubnyk flamed out there.
joestevens29
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Most backups don't start more than 1 game in a row, although the Oilers rarely tried it. Although they did last playoffs and he was damn fine
McDNicks17
Moderator
Ian Clark would not like Skinner.
brentashton
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Behind Enemy Lines
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Fully agree. My posts don't endorse Skinner. Skinner's clearly deficient in several of Clark's core attributes and question whether they can improve through experience or not. Athleticism is definitely an area I think is significantly limiting for the home grown guy. I've always viewed Skinner as a mid-level prospect guy who was being overhyped here when this team rode its annual team ups and downs with Smith/Koskinen.
Personally the way the Oilers play I think they need a prototypical athletic based goaltender who can make big saves when their defensive zone work goes pear shape (a systemic, annual occurrence)with ability to also steal games.
Jimmi McJenkins
Sometimes miracles
I don't give a shit about J-Freshy, but Walman is looking like an excellent pick up.
Took a pill in Sbisa
2showToffoliIwascool
I'm not sure I follow the Dubnyk part. His statistics relative to the team/defense is in front of him were markedly better in Edmonton than Minnesota
Jimmi McJenkins
Sometimes miracles
Dubnyk? He got a new goalie coach to re-work his approach to the game and saved his career.
Again, certain people here want give Schwartz a pass because they assume nothing can be done anyway, it's really stupid.
Getting to my Rodrigue point, for those in the back, Sylvan had the goalies he coached improve and get better, Schwartz has achieved none of this with the Oilers.
Took a pill in Sbisa
2showToffoliIwascool
It was the Minnesota defensive system that saved his career. Sean Burke's tutuloage was overblown at the time because it just gave Dubnyk a much needed confidence boost on a decent defensive team that led to a career year before going to Minnesota and coasting on the defensive system. This was right before analytics became mainstream so people were still relying on raw numbers at this point.
Looking at goals saved above expected (min 30 games played).
10-11 - EDM - 13th/39
11-12 - EDM - 10th/42
12-13 - EDM - 3rd/22
*insert GM Craig McTavish's infamous offseason quote after being asked if Dubnyk was the Oilers starter: "If you have to ask the question, you already know the answer"*
13-14 - EDM/NAS 38th/38
14-15 - ARI/MIN - 2nd
15-16 - MIN - 27th/42
16-17 - MIN - 28th/41
17-18 - MIN - 30th/42
18-19 - MIN - 42nd/48
19-20 - MIN - 45th/45
He then played two more seasons on other teams with a combined 0.895SV% and was out of the league at age 35.
So what we're seeing was a goalie that was underrated in his time in Edmonton, had an awful season after getting publicly questioned by his GM and his name in trade rumours all year, followed by a season where he got hot, followed by playing below average on the best defensive team in the NHL. The reason why he was able to start so many games was because his game to game workload was less than every other starter and Minnesota practiced with a 3rd goalie. Minnesota had the #1 defensive environment in the NHL during Dubnyk's tenure. In fact it wasn't even close, it was silly how insulated their goalies were during this stretch.
I actually remember being on these boards during his tenure in Edmonton and the math guys were trying to explain this on HFOil, this was well before analytics were mainstreamed. Ironically when analytics started being validated, the Kevin Woodleys of the world used Dubnyk as the poster boy for a trade target not to acquire as his numbers would drop off on a new perspective team.
Behind Enemy Lines
Registered User
Dubnyk reset himself with a reset mentally and some external support. One of those external supports was Lyle Mast who pioneered the Head Trajectory movement that was part of the Dubnyk reset. OR Sports founder Lyle Mast, "has studied and researched athletic performance to find the true mechanism and training platform for optimum reactions and performance. The result is an unprecedented program based on Head TrajectoryTM, that instantly impacts the goaltenders ability to perform optimally." Awkwardly Mast and Schwartz delivered hockey schools and worked together with this early goaltender specialization well before working for the Oilers.
I'm not sure why you would think a minor league skills coach (or any coach) would work independent of the mother ship direction, philosophy and coaching oversight. Rodrigue worked under Schwartz to implement the coaching direction of this boss and organization. The really only outsider intervention to speak of was the Oiler management approval to airlift Manny Legacy into Bakersfield to try to revitalize the corpse of AHL Jack Campbell. Of course that couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again and the next stop was buy-out Jack.
Rodrigue's kid I personally think it's likely an AHL/NHL tweener more than a viable NHL starting or maybe even backup goaltender. Reminds me of Olivia Roy who was an decent athletic small frame goaltender who got exposed with the quality of NHL level shooters.
Fire Schwartz for his evaluation work with Holland Jr. on the Campbell signing. I think there's a real question for deeper analysis that goaltending coaching is potentially being overrated. But I believe all players are accountable and responsible for like 80% of their development. Goaltending is overly depended upon team play, bad and good, for personal success. There's about 3-5 super elite ones that can consistently over perform team play.
In Edmonton, you get what you pay for. A steam run of old, retreaded journeymen and once every decade their volume mid-late round drafting approach lands on a guy capable of NHL play. All things considered, it's a viable question if goaltending coaches impact is overrated.
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That's the sad thing in all of this. Pickard has earned a spot as a full time backup in the NHL - with the caveat that he needs a legit starter in front of him. It isn't fair to him that he theoretically needs to be replaced for no reason that is a fault of his own.
Trafalgar Sadge Law
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As bad as he's been this season, I would argue the same could be said about Skinner. He's a 1B goalie who got forced into the starter role because the dumbest general manager in the NHL gave the worst goalie in the NHL 25 million dollars. He should've never been the go-to guy in the playoffs to begin with.
Stuart wasn't forced to be a starter. He hit the lottery and the Oilers were too stupid to get an actual starter. He's lucky he wasn't making as much as Campbell otherwise he would have been out of the league.
The idea of upgrading Pickard is a weird one, because an upgrade on Pickard is essentially an upgrade on Skinner, because Pickard has arguably been as good or better than Skinner this year. Hell, his sv% has been better two years in a row now. Show me a backup who has a better sv% in back-to-back years than the "starter."
Stoneman89
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Pickard has not been the problem in any way shape or form.
joestevens29
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All of that wasn't going to happen for Dubnyk either until he realized that it wasn't just one team that thought he had warts.
Nashville that was a goalie factor tossed him aside for nothing.
Montreal fired him in the minors where he was god awful.
Sometimes guys need harsh reality before they can become good again
Jimmi McJenkins
Sometimes miracles
He hasn't helped as much as many want to pretend. He's been an utter disaster on his 2nd start in a row which hasn't let them put as much pressure on Stu.
