Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Non-NHL Europeans)

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Comparable

When Tarasov once wrote about Almetov's line, he suggested that while they were very good in their own time, they would not have been so succesful in the 'modern hockey' (they needed 'too much room' to be effective). However, I've understood that Tarasov was talking mainly about Almetov and his early downfall (his conditioning/physics was not good enough anymore around 1967). As for Alexandrov's role in nurturing Mikhailov and Petrov, Finnish sources mostly just say that he was the player that Kharlamov replaced on the line with M and P. In one book (Talviurheilun sankarit) it is even said that Alexandrov 'failed' in that job, although the reasoning for that is simply that Kharlamov replaced him (!); well, he was 31 years old back then, it's no wonder.

Basically, the stats say "yes", but the rest say "I don't know". Part of me thinks that Alexandrov was a bit unfortunate to not have been born a few years later; as it was, he played on CSKA/ntl team in an era when the collective thinking was maybe at its peak (e.g. even the IIHF directorate couldn't decide who the best player/forward on the team was), and he totally missed the so called golden age of Soviet hockey, whereas somewhat younger '60s stars like Starshinov and especially Firsov were still big impact players in the late '60s/early '70s.

He'll certainly be in my top 4, but where exactly? It's tough.

A possible comparable would be a review of the line's and Alexandrov's performance during North American or Canadian tours when the games were played on the smaller rinks with little exception.
 
Except for the Post Harvey - Pre Orr phenomena in the 1962 to 67 stretch when Pilote, Laperriere and Howell won the Norris. Unless you are making the point that the three listed were equals or better than Harvey and/or Orr.

No Soviet defenseman before or after Ragulin used his game or style as a template.
Likewise, Soviet goaltending between Puchkov and Tretiak dipped quite a bit.

So their defence and offense must have been pretty good, since even with Konovalenko (occasionally Zinger) in the nets, they won 9 straight world championships (1963-71) and they usually allowed much fewer goals than the opponents? And yes, they did lose 6 games during that period - 4 to Czechoslovakia (1968, 1969, 1971) and 2 to Sweden (1963, 1970) - but Konovalenko can be blamed only for three of those losses (if even that), since he didn't play in the 1969 WHC (2 losses to CSSR) and he played only at the start of the 1970 WHC loss vs. Sweden (I think he suffered an injury and was replaced because of that, not because he was so bad).
Ergo, would it be fair to say that the Soviet team of the 1960s and its skaters are underrated then?

I'm not trying to make a huge case for Konovalenko (as he is not even available and I wouldn't have him in the top 50), but he seems somewhat underrated. And what I like about him is that unlike e.g. Holecek and Dzurilla, he did not seem to have huge meltdowns, at least not that I'm aware of.

CC 1976
1. Rogatien Vachon: 7 games / 432 minutes / .940 SV% / 1.39 GAA
2. Vladimír Dzurilla: 5 games / 228 minutes / .920 SV% / 2.36 GAA
3. Vladislav Tretiak: 5 games / 300 minutes / .912 SV% / 2.80 GAA
4. Pete LoPresti: 2 games / 120 minutes / .895 SV% / 3.00 GAA
5. Jiří Holeček: 5 games / 203 minutes / .861 SV% / 3.25 GAA
- great tournament, 2nd best SV after Vachon (.920 against best of best when he was 34 y/o), shutout versus Canada, clearly outplayed Holecek

I simply can't accept that, since he played only 2 (!) full games (vs CAN in round robin & vs SWE) in the tournament, or 3, if one ignores those few minutes that Holecek played in game two of the final vs Canada. And Dzurilla simply blew the first game of the final, and was replaced after the first period.

ANYWAY, thanks for a terrific post.
 
Unofficial All-Star Teams?

Malecek, Josef
[table="head;title=list"]Year||Tournament|Goals|Assists|Points|Unofficial All-Star
1923||
EC​
|4th|
x​
|
4th​
|
x​
|

1924||
OG​
|
15th (tie)
|
x​
|
18th (tie)
|
x​

1925||
EC​
|
1st​
|
2nd (tie)
|
1st​
|
Yes​

1926||
EC​
|
4th​
|
4th (tie)
|
4th (tie)
|
Yes​

1927||
EC​
|
3rd (tie)
|
7th (tie)
|
3rd (tie)
|
x​

1928||
OG​
|
12th (tie)
|
x​
|
16th (tie)
|
x​

1929||
EC​
|
1st (tie)
|
4th (tie)
|
3rd​
|
Yes​

1930||
WC​
|
x​
|
x​
|
x​
|
x​

1931||
WC​
|
6th (tie)
|
3rd (tie)
|
2nd (tie)
|
x​

1933||
WC​
|
1st​
|
4th (tie)
|
1st​
|
Yes​
|

1934||
WC​
|
34th (tie)
|
4th (tie)
|
10th (tie)
|
x​
|

1935||
WC​
|
1st​
|
1st​
|
1st​
|
x​
|

1936||
OG​
|
10th (tie)
|
2nd (tie)
|
5th (tie)
|
x​
|

1937||
WC​
|
2nd (tie)
|
12th (tie)
|
4th​
|
x​
|

1938||
WC​
|
37th (tie)
|
1st (tie)
|
10th (tie)
|
x​
|

1939||
WC​
|
1st (tie)
|
1st​
|
1st​
|
Yes​
|

1940||
WSW (Unofficial EC)
|
2nd (tie)
|
1st​
|
1st​
|
Yes​
|
[/table]

If I understand this correctly Malecek was selected to unofficial all-star teams (based on newspapers best players of the tournament lists?) at 6 major international tournaments. I am very interested in learning more about these all-star selections. How many of these tournaments do you have unofficial all-star teams from? All of them? How does Maleceks 6 selections stack up against other players during that time frame?

And another question. Based on the lists you posted in the preliminary thread regarding rankings of the best players around 1928-1933 it seems like Malecek pretty clearly was regarded as Europes best player during that time frame. My question is how long do you consider Maleceks reign as Europes best player to have been? I am very interested as I try to rank the players based on a mix of how they ranked among their european competition and how they measured up to the best players in the world. It is already clear that Malecek was very very dominant compared to his european competition but I am still very interested in knowing how many years (approximately) he has a case for having been considered the best player in Europe for.
 
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Glad to see Alexandrov finally being discussed in more detail. I would have hated for him to be the guy ranked low just because nobody really talked about him this round.

Edit: One big question though:

VMBM said:
BTW, is there any more information on Alexandrov's huge 1962-63 season? Not that 53 goals in itself sounds impossible, but considering that it's very nearly twice as much as the 2nd best scorer... that never quite happened even in Bobrov's heyday, not to mention in any other era; everything must have worked for Alexandrov in that season.

How the heck wasn't Alexandrov a Soviet league All-Star that season????

This is what theokritos has for 62-63 in the international reference thread:

1962-1963:
Viktor Konovalenko (G, Gorky), Aleksandr Ragulin (D, CSKA), Aleksandr Almetov (C, CSKA), Vyacheslav Starshinov (C, Spartak), Vladimir Yurzinov (C, Dinamo)

*Note: Boris Mayorov switched from RW to LW in 1960 (while his brother Yevgeny went the other way).

After 1963 the Soviet federation proceeded to name six "best players" every year: one goaltender, two defencemen and three forwards. There was no regard to different forward positions which is the reason why we occasionally find two centers or two left wingers or two right wingers on one and the same "All-Star team".

Alemetov, Alexandrov's linemate who Alexandrov outscored 53-23 (goals only, no assists recorded) was an all-star, but Alexandrov wasn't? Bizarre.

I don't know if he makes it over Hlinka, Kapustin, or the quartet of defensemen, but he won't be at the bottom of my list.
 
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Concering his legacy: There was a vote among the general public in 1987 where an all-time national team was selected. Svedberg was voted best RD, winning in a landslide before runners up Roland Stoltz and Anders Eldebrink.

Here's a couple of clips from the show where his election was announced.
(tdmm - omitting the clips for quoting purposes)

Interesting points:
* Lot's of talk about how fenomenal his skating was, but also his puck-handling.
* One quote from National Team coach Arne Strömberg: "He wasn't like one of those Bobby Orr-wannabe's nowadays who try to attack by themselves as soon as they get the puck, a kind of transport worker with the puck. He would play the puck. If there was anyone open, he would play it. He understood that the puck was three times as fast as any player." Considering most of the usual highlight clips feature him rushing the puck, I thought this was interesting.
* Arne Strömberg also makes a point about him being a good hitter, especially doing hipchecks at a high speed.
* He is described as small and skinny, but able to take a lot of abuse. They also mention his surprising bodily strength here, something about doing knee-bends with Ragulin and Kuskin on his back.
* Like Tumba before him, he was invited to train with the Soviets for a mutual exchange of knowledge. He even suited up for CSKA Moscow for a game against Dynamo Moscow.
* He is described by fellow hockey player Eje Lindstrom as still playing at peak level when he passed away.

Thanks for posting this, by the way.

Out of curiosity, do you have access to the full voting for this poll? Alternatively, do you just have a list of the winners?

I assume Salming is the LD, Tumba the C, Holmqvist the G (Lindmark hadn't completely his legacy yet), etc.
 
1958 Solly and Treg

From The Gazette coverage of the 1958 WHC gold medal game, multiple articles including an excellent Dink Carroll column and overview of the game atmosphere, post game comments and game coverage.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=lkwwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=d6gFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=7313,1607977


Dink Carroll's column is very telling ,especially Lynn Patricks comments about Sologubov, Tregubov, Alexandrov and Kopylov. Most telling is the praise and interest in the two Soviet defencemen, Sologubov and Tregubov. The 1957 and 1958 Bruins,Stanley Cup finalists, had the best balance on defence in the NHL with Flaman, Stanley, Boivin, Bob Armstrong and Doug Mohns who played a fair amount at LW.
The 1957 and 1958 Bruins gave the Canadiens the toughest time in the SC finals between 1956 and 1960, inflicting three of the nine playoff loses that the dynasty suffered. seeing Sologubov and Tregubov as potential teammates or even replacements for three future HHOFers is high praise.
 
From The Gazette coverage of the 1958 WHC gold medal game, multiple articles including an excellent Dink Carroll column and overview of the game atmosphere, post game comments and game coverage.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=lkwwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=d6gFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=7313,1607977


Dink Carroll's column is very telling ,especially Lynn Patricks comments about Sologubov, Tregubov, Alexandrov and Kopylov. Most telling is the praise and interest in the two Soviet defencemen, Sologubov and Tregubov. The 1957 and 1958 Bruins,Stanley Cup finalists, had the best balance on defence in the NHL with Flaman, Stanley, Boivin, Bob Armstrong and Doug Mohns who played a fair amount at LW.
The 1957 and 1958 Bruins gave the Canadiens the toughest time in the SC finals between 1956 and 1960, inflicting three of the nine playoff loses that the dynasty suffered. seeing Sologubov and Tregubov as potential teammates or even replacements for three future HHOFers is high praise.

They certainly got a lot of praise from the North Americans. The European press also held them in high regard, and it seems that they clearly were good enough to earn a regular spot on most NHL teams, both being top 25 players in this project IMHO.
 
Nice lead-in to my post. Thank you. First Bobrov did not stand out against the Penticton Vs in 1955 when the team had some former NHL players, by accounts folded his hand early. In 1954 against Lyndhurst, a Senior B team and 1956 against KWD without reinstated pros he showed well.

In the 1930s Malecek played against the Ottawa Shamrocks on a couple of occassions. The Shamrocks were part of the Ottawa City Hockey League, a Senior A league, arguably Canada's strongest city as opposed to regional or provincial Senior A Hockey League. The league included past and future NHL alumni and was a defensive hockey stronghold. It was also a physical league.

About Senior B, was that category equivalent to intermediate hockey in the western provinces, like the Edmonton Mercurys/Lethbridge Maple Leafs in 1950-51?

I think for Alexandrov, we need to remember that European fans favored slick technical players like he was. I also read (on a russian site featuring bios of many Soviet players, I'll try to find it again EDIT: crap, couldn't find it) that Alexandrov was heavily criticized for being soft mentally, especially in the late 50s when the Canadians continued to hold the upper hand.
 
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Is there a case for Kapustin over Alexandrov?

Both were WC´s all-star 2x, none of them was Directoriate´s best forward.

Top 10 scoring placements (WC, OG):

Kapustin: 3., 4., 6., 8.
top 5: 2x
top 10: 4x

Alexandrov: 1., 4., 6., 8., 8., 9., 10.
top 5: 2x
top 10: 7x

Kapustin was an all-star in 1981 when he wasn´t in top 10 scoring so that´s +1 to his four very good tournaments. But Alexandrov managed to sneak himself into the top 10 more often. What about his competition? Alexandrov certainly competed with extremely talented Soviet forwards, but Czechoslovak forwards in 60s and late 50s weren´t nearly as good as those who came in 70s or possibly even in early 80s, with whom Kapustin had to compete. Not to mention much higher quality of Canadians after 1977. So?
 
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I´ve mentioned it during last voting but it still deserves a closer look. I´m talking about Hlinka´s difficult circumstances when he was playing in NHL when he was 32/33 years old.

I haven´t read Hlinka´s biography, fortunately though he had a nice profile in the book "Češi a Slováci v dějinách NHL" which concerns primarily on different players´ time spent abroad.

Some quotes (written by Karel Knap):
"'Ivan Hlinka - old rookie with painful knee.'
Age dragged him to 32, according to former Czechoslovak conventions Ivan Hlinka slowly belonged to sports retirement... He was suffering from damaged knee, which was surgically operated twice. Worn out body hadn´t been moving so quickly as before. (...)
In the Czech hockey history you probably won´t find more significant character. Handsome boy with imposing figure wore captain´s 'C' in Litvínov already when he was 20. (...) He smoked, didn´t overdo his weightlifting, was ridiculed because of his ungainly moves. Even then, he grew up into dominant world-class center. (...)
Natural authority and characteristic humour of Litvínov´s boss affected his teammates. 'Ivan hated loses and could arouse others to reverse the game,' said about his favourite former coach Karel Gut. (...)
'Hockey is completely different in America, it can´t be compared with Europe,' Ivan said. 'It´s not just about playing style, but also about mentality and ability to adjust.'
Hlinka was suffering. His knee was hurt, out-of-repair spine made him to skip game from time to time... He didn´t meet with Bubla on ice very often as it had not been so relied on the combination in NHL yet... Even without him, Hlinka set a rookie record of Canucks with 60 points
[this record even still stands among Czech rookies to today! - DN]. (...) He missed two games against dominating New York Islanders because of suffering from back-pain. (...)
Worn out organism limited Hlinka yet even more significantly in the 1982-83 season. In the regular season, he played 7 matches less, yet gathered 3 points more."


If the guy was essentially ppg in a season when he´s 33, I have no doubts Hlinka could have hit 100+ points season during his prime. How many of available forwards in this round can say that?

By the way, Hlinka´s knee injury caused him to miss OG 1980 which turned out to be disaster for CSSR. Precisely Hlinka´s absence was considered as one of the main causes of that debacle at the time.
 
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Categories

About Senior B, was that category equivalent to intermediate hockey in the western provinces, like the Edmonton Mercurys/Lethbridge Maple Leafs in 1950-51?

I think for Alexandrov, we need to remember that European fans favored slick technical players like he was. I also read (on a russian site featuring bios of many Soviet players, I'll try to find it again) that Alexandrov was heavily criticized for being soft mentally, especially in the late 50s when the Canadians continued to hold the upper hand.

Category definitions varied from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, era to era.

Post WWII Senior A had evolved to the semi pro level. Teams would not qualify for Olympic/International hockey since they could not ice pros.The reinstated pros concept had not been defined. From 1947 thru 1954, Allan Cup winners would have been unable to ice a solid majority of their roster in international play so replacement teams were found from Senior B or Intermediate / Senior A.

Senior B in some areas were senior amateur leagues where the teams did not have reinstated pros.

Intermediate-Senior A likewise - Edmonton Mercurys. Intermediate usual meant that Junior players over the age of 18 would have been eligible to play with Seniors, players no longer eligible to play Junior. Lethbridge Maple Leafs were an intermediate team. Winners of the 1951 WHC, they were lead by Stan Obodiac, leading scorer, who became the publicist for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

European forwards from the pre 1969 period are hard to judge since the aggressive physical forecheck was not allowed and you did have the center red line offside. Alexandrov and other forwards have to be viewed in this perspective. If they were allowed to get loose on the wing they looked great.
 
I´ve mentioned it during last voting but it still deserves a closer look. I´m talking about Hlinka´s difficult circumstances when he was playing in NHL when he was 32/33 years old...If the guy was essentially ppg in a season when he´s 33, I have no doubts Hlinka would have hit several 100+ points seasons during his prime. How many of available forwards in this round can say that?

I agree with you DN28 that Hlinka would have done very well in the NHL during his prime.

Hlinka almost got to play for the Winnipeg Jets as they were the team who drafted him in that special NHL-draft in 1981. Jiri Bubla was drafted by Colorado, speedy Bohuslav Ebermann by Detroit and legendary Vladimir Martinec by Hartford.

Vancouver however immediately signed Hlinka and Bubla which prompted both Winnipeg and Colorado to file tampering charges against Vancouver. After lengthy discussions the matter was resolved by a three-way deal between the clubs.

I think coming to Vancouver made the transition a bit easier for him. The team had five Swedes who Hlinka had played against on the international scene.
They also had Rick Lanz, a Czech born defenseman who came to Canada with his parents in 1968. Then you had Ivan Boldirev, a Serbian born player who came to Canada as a child and who grew up speaking his native tongue with his parents. Another one was Harold Snepsts, who grew up in a Latvian speaking home.
Then you of course had Hlinka's buddy Jiri Bubla.

Aside from that I would say that Hlinka was perfectly suited for the NHL, and I have no doubt that he would be a consistent 80-90 point scorer in the league had he played there in his prime.

I think the best compliment given to him was during his rookie season after a four point (2+2) night against the Boston Bruins, when newspapers wrote that his play looked like the return of Jean Beliveau. He also got positive remarks for his sound two-way play, quickly buying into the system.

I believe that he had the best +/- figure among the forwards on the team, only being beaten narrowly for the lead by a defenseman (Snepsts?).

Despite his wonky knees Hlinka showed his class in the NHL. He had the technique, protected the puck well and had a wide arsenal of shots, beating the goalies in a variety of ways. He was also really useful on the PP.

Having Hlinka in the NHL from the age of 21 or something like that, then I am sure he would have been a top 10 center in the league for years.
 
Is there a case for Kapustin over Alexandrov?

Both were WC´s all-star 2x, neither of them was directoriate´s best forward.

Top 10 scoring placements (WC, OG):

Kapustin: 3., 4., 6., 8.
top 5: 2x
top 10: 4x

Alexandrov: 1., 4., 6., 8., 8., 9., 10.
top 5: 2x
top 10: 7x

Kapustin was an all-star in 1981 when he wasn´t in top 10 scoring so that´s +1 to his four very good tournaments. But Alexandrov managed to sneak himself into top 10 more often. What about his competition? Alexandrov certainly competed with extremely talented Soviet forwards, but Czechoslovak forwards in 60s and late 50s weren´t nearly as good as those who came in 70s or possibly even in early 80s, with whom Kapustin had to compete. Not to mention much higher quality of Canadians after 1977. So?

A few things:

1) The quality of competition isn't even close to the same. Kapustin competed with first the end of the great 70s Soviets, then the Green Unit on his own team. Also had much better Candians/Americans (NHLers who missed the playoffs!) as you said, and a much better team Sweden.

2) Kapustin was apparently known as a "digger" in the corners and his physical game was compared to some of the more physical North Americans. So he brought something other than offense.

3) Kapustin was an official WHC all-star in 1978 and 1981, but he also was so close in voting with Bill Barber in 1982 that it was almost a tie, and he was listed as (an unofficial?) 2nd team All-Star in 1982
 
I have paraphrased three contemporary comments on the performance of Lennart Svedberg (and Jan Suchý) at the 1970 World Championship. They are taken from a Soviet recap of the tournament published in December 1970. I intend to post more from this publication later on as time permits. Here are the paraphrases of the comments dealing explicitly with Svedberg:

Aleksandr Kolodny and Dmitry Ryzhkov (both journalists):
In the first round of the WHC, Svedberg's offensive play earned him the praise of the international journalists. According to Kolodny and Ryzhkov the essence of their praise amounted to the claim that Svedberg was a "great forward" (!). However, team coach Arne Strömberg thought this offensive play was not always to the benefit of the team, so he made Svedberg play more conservatively. Apparently with good results: Kolodny and Ryzhkov say that the pairing of Lennart Svedberg and Arne Carlsson "was probably the most reliable" one in the second round of the WHC.

Oleg Spassky (journalist):
Spassky quotes Tarasov and says he was certainly right when he said that Suchý and Svedberg are offensive defencemen who love to play at the forefront of the attack. Both are great players, but Spassky has an objection: their play is not without risk. For example, in the first WHC game between Sweden and Finland (March 17, Finland won 3-1) Svedberg gave the puck away on one of his forays which led to a breakaway opportunity for the Finns who promptly scored to make it 1-0. The Soviet defencemen, Spassky says, were "less visible" than Svedberg and Suchý because they played "safer" and with "strict tactical discipline" – in Spassky's eyes "a testimony of moral maturity".

Dmitry Boginov (coach):
Boginov is among the critics of Suchý and Svedberg. He says that in 1969 both players were recognized as exemplary "modern attacking defencemen" for being reliable defensively and for participating in the offence. In 1970 however the defensive reliability was missing, says Boginov. His original condemnation had already been published during the WHC tournament in the "Sovietsky Sport" newspaper where Boginov claimed he wouldn't like to have someone playing like Suchý or Svedberg on his own team. Boginov concedes that this original criticism had possibly been too brusque, but he repeats that he is not convinced Suchý and Svedberg were the best defencemen at the 1970 WHC. The brilliance displayed by both players in their individual forays was sure to draw the applause of the audience, but did it actually help their teams to win? Every time they lost the puck the opponent had a good opportunity for a counterattack. In the first game against Finland Jan Suchý got 6 points (3 goals, 3 assists), but he also had "four or five blunders in defence", one resulting in a goal for Finland. Lennart Svedberg played very well offensively against the Soviets, but in the second match Boris Mikhailov had three breakaway opportunities because Svedberg, "joining the attack, forgot his defensive duties". Boginov concludes that these "attacking defencemen" had essentially turned into forwards and that a real demonstration of what modern defencemen should play like was rather given by players like Oldřich Machač (Czechoslovakia), Arne Carlsson (Sweden) and Juha Rantasila (Finland) who also joined in the attack but only when it was safe to do so. What about the Soviets? According to Boginov the Soviet defencemen failed to contribute offensively like modern defencemen should. Being unable to combine defensive reliability with offensive contribution, they rightly focused on their core job: to defend.
 
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Thanks for the posts, Theo.

I would personally take Soviet criticism of individualism with a big grain of salt, however, since such individualism goes against the essence of communism, at least as I understand it was practiced in the USSR in the 60s and 70s.

(And as a counterexample, "can't get the puck out of their own zone" was the north american criticism of 60s and at least early 70s Soviets).

Keep it coming, tho
 
Thanks for the posts, Theo.

I would personally take Soviet criticism of individualism with a big grain of salt, however, since such individualism goes against the essence of communism, at least as I understand it was practiced in the USSR in the 60s and 70s.

Agreed. We still get quite a variety of views and opinions despite the ideological denominator though: Spassky thought the Soviet defencemen did well despite of their lack of flash, Boginov on the other hand was quite frank in noting their shortcomings in this tournament and in his preference of Machač/Carlsson/Rantasila. And Kolodny/Ryzhkov go against the general thrust of Spassky and Boginov by saying that Svedberg was actually solid defensively in the second half of the tournament.
 
I would personally take Soviet criticism of individualism with a big grain of salt...

Also, at least their account/criticism of Jan Suchý chimes well with what Suchý himself said a year later after the 1971 World Championship:

Found a nice series of stories from 1971 WHC´s from Offsport.ru. Interviews and stories written at the time.

Jan Suchy tolds about his role change in national team during that tournament

from Offsport.ru with google translate. Not greatest translation, but I guess the main points are there...

Jan Suchy says:
- People often ask me why I'm in this tournament less than last year, connected to the attacks. This is the coach's decision. I was asked to play a more stringent with less risk, and I try to execute the tactical setup for the match.

Attack tempting. Because the opponent does not expect the defender of the enemy dares to penetrate into the depth of his defense. But the risk is sometimes justified. Acquitted if link partners are willing to insure you, block possible directions counterattack the opponent.
Otherwise, there are complications. As they emerged from the Swedes, when "falling down" stretching forward Svedberg, hockey player of very high class.

This is not my first prize - said Yang after at a reception after the end of the championship received (along with Koskela) prize of the best defender - but, perhaps, the most expensive. In the past, I did not play the way he could be too fond of attacking. And this time I was the quarterback. True defender. "
 
Individualism

Thanks for the posts, Theo.

I would personally take Soviet criticism of individualism with a big grain of salt, however, since such individualism goes against the essence of communism, at least as I understand it was practiced in the USSR in the 60s and 70s.

(And as a counterexample, "can't get the puck out of their own zone" was the north american criticism of 60s and at least early 70s Soviets).

Keep it coming, tho

Soviets and other communist countries practiced individual sports, be it boxing , track, gymnastics, etc. So individualism was accepted, even encouraged but in the right place and at the right time.

Specific to hockey. A defenceman facing a one on one has to step-up as an individual and make the proper play, not hope for help from the collective or another individual - the goaltender. Likewise offensively, pass the puck forward when there are opportunities - it travels much faster than any skater, use your collective teammates wisely. Rushing the puck when a pass is the more effective play is individualism since it misses better opportunities and facilitates the other teams defensive play.
 
Is there a case for Kapustin over Alexandrov?

Both were WC´s all-star 2x, neither of them was directoriate´s best forward.

Top 10 scoring placements (WC, OG):

Kapustin: 3., 4., 6., 8.
top 5: 2x
top 10: 4x

Alexandrov: 1., 4., 6., 8., 8., 9., 10.
top 5: 2x
top 10: 7x

Kapustin was an all-star in 1981 when he wasn´t in top 10 scoring so that´s +1 to his four very good tournaments. But Alexandrov managed to sneak himself into top 10 more often. What about his competition? Alexandrov certainly competed with extremely talented Soviet forwards, but Czechoslovak forwards in 60s and late 50s weren´t nearly as good as those who came in 70s or possibly even in early 80s, with whom Kapustin had to compete. Not to mention much higher quality of Canadians after 1977. So?
3) Kapustin was an official WHC all-star in 1978 and 1981, but he also was so close in voting with Bill Barber in 1982 that it was almost a tie, and he was listed as (an unofficial?) 2nd team All-Star in 1982

Maybe it should be reminded that they started to select the All-Star players only in 1961, so Alexandrov missed some possible choices in 1957-60.
Yes, Kapustin was a 2nd team All-Star in 1982 (source: Suuri Jääkiekkoteos 3), but Alexandrov got 4th most votes among forwards in 1965 after Jirik, Almetov and Loktev (= the 1965 WHC All-Star forwards), so he most certainly would have been in the 2nd all-star team in that WHC. Anyway, since we don't have the full voting results from every year, I'm not sure how relevant these pieces of information are.

Is there a case for Kapustin over Alexandrov? If one thinks that a secondary star of 1970s/early 1980s is better than their best player in the early/mid-1960s, then yes. Personally I don't.

And what about their domestic stats/play?

A few things:

1) The quality of competition isn't even close to the same. Kapustin competed with first the end of the great 70s Soviets, then the Green Unit on his own team. Also had much better Candians/Americans (NHLers who missed the playoffs!) as you said, and a much better team Sweden.

Come on now, the Swedish teams post 1974 were very, shall we say, patchy. Of course Swedish hockey and its players got better all the time throughout the years, but in Alexandrov's time there were always the best Swedish players playing (the same with Finland and Czechoslovakia), and were much more used to playing with each other throughout the season, whereas in Kapustin's time they never had all their best (with the exception of the 1976 and 1981 Canada Cups) and the players/lines always changed from one tournament to another. I can agree that the Swedish teams e.g. at the 1977 WHC and 1981 WHC were probably superior than any Tre Kronor during Alexandrov's days, but in 1976, 1978, 1979... meh meh meh.
And are we gonna judge teams only on paper now, and not care about the results or the quality of their play at all? Despite having NHLers, those Canadian teams played often quite poorly and reports of their bad behaviour on and off the ice and drinking escapades are quite notorious.

And it's pretty lame to bring Americans into discussion; just see how 'well' they did in the WHCs during Kapustin's time. We might as well be talking about West Germans there... they even dropped to Pool B in 1982 (finished even behind Italy!), and thus did not play in the 1983 WHC (Pool A). And the Soviets didn't always even face them in other years either, since USA never made it to the medal round when Kapustin played. It's only in the 1976 & 1981 CCs when Kapustin & USSR faced a noteworthy Team USA (Kapustin did not play in the 1980 Olympics).
 
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By the way, Hlinka´s knee injury caused him to miss OG 1980 which turned out to be disaster for CSSR. Precisely Hlinka´s absence was considered as one of the main causes of that debacle at the time.

A Finnish source (Suuri jääkiekkoteos 2) mentions only that Martinec breaking his wrist in their first game vs Norway was a big reason for their failure in the rest of the tournament; I think Martinec was having one of his better later seasons until then. Obviously Hlinka was missed too...
They were also a bit unlucky to have run into hot Team USA and hot Pelle Lindbergh (CSSR dominated the game vs SWE, but Lindbergh was superb in the nets).
 
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Maybe not too much weight should be put on those Soviet All-Star teams, but I have yet not seen anything that would convince me to totally disregard them. Now, Alexandrov has only 2 All-Star nods; even players like Viktor Yakushev and Konstantin Loktev have the same amount, not to mention that Boris Mayorov and Alexander Almetov have 3. Also, if the argument against Starshinov and his 8 All-Star berths is that they (often/mostly) chose 1 center and 2 wingers and the competition at center was weak, isn't the argument against Alexandrov that in all but two seasons he was NOT considered to be among the top 2 wingers in the Soviet Union?! There are quite a few questions that remain about the All-Star selections (criteria etc), but let's just say that at least they don't add much to Alexandrov's legacy. Maybe noteworthy is, however, that the other one of Alexandrov's All-Star nods is from the 1967-68 season, when he was already 30/31 (and he did well in the SPOTY voting too). I still have to doubt that it was among his best seasons, but there you go...

If we include retro All-Star selections Alexandrov has a total of 4 selections (2 official, 2 retro). How much value these retro selections should have is of course another question but just wanted to mention it.
 

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