Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Non-NHL Europeans)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Assuming for a moment that it is true that Canada sent better teams to the WHCs before WW2, would it really matter when Malecek's Czechoslovakia regularly got their butts kicked by the USA and Canadian-augmented Great Britain teams? Or did the USA and Britain send better teams than Canada (or anyone else) did after WW2, as well?

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Assuming for a moment that it is true that Canada sent better teams to the WHCs before WW2, would it really matter when Malecek's Czechoslovakia regularly got their butts kicked by the USA and Canadian-augmented Great Britain teams? Or did the USA and Britain send better teams than Canada (or anyone else) did after WW2, as well?

The British teams in the 1930s for example were very competitive, stacked with really strong Canadian players. The money was better over in Great Britain than in Canada, so the quality of the British league was top notch before WW II.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Backwards

It is true that the European teams couldn't touch the touring Canadian teams in the 1930s, (although they ocassionally stole a point or two from them) but there is no shame in that. Only the best amateur teams were sent over, and I am pretty sure that they would have been more than capable of giving the best pro teams in North America a run for their money.

I believe Canadiens1958 knows what he's talking about in this regard. I am pretty sure that the Canadian teams that toured Europe in the 1930s were better than the Canadian teams in the 1960s for example that played against the Soviets.

Canadiens1958, I have always been under the impression that the provincial champions and Allan Cup winners in the 1920s and 30s were much stronger than the ones in the 1960s for example. (Difference between them and the NHL teams).

I don't want to go off-topic here because we are discussing individual players here on the list, but at the same time it is educational as well, and gives us a better understanding of the strength/weakness of European hockey historically.

Think we have things a bit backwards. Senior A hockey in Canada and Amateur in the USA(AHAUS) between the two world wars was the level below the NHL. The pro minor leagues were in the formative stages. Senior A hockey appealed to the player who wanted the security of a job, the potential of a pro career NHL without the expense of a nomadic life with the financial benefits of playing at what was effectively a semi-pro level. You had some post NHL players hanging on.

The typical team featured a nucleus of players with a roster structured for continuity. Residency rules were in place to combat the "Hockey Tourist" or mercenary. This became an issue during the depression as teams folded and rosters were reduced. This had a impact on international hockey, Halifax Allan Cup winners refused to go to Europe unless compensated and dual citizen Canadians played hockey in Europe, mainly in Britain. Setting aside the narrative, Mike Buckna was a mercenary who benefitted Czechoslovakian hockey.

Goaltending tended to be excellent. Team play was cohesive.

From what has been posted it seems that European teams from the same period were composed of athletes who could skate and play ice hockey, their secondary sport. As such they may have had the raw skating ability with hockey fundamentals but they were not game tested to the same degree that the touring Canadian Senior A teams were. Example would be the length of the touring teams European schedule, 30+ games. Factor in their Canadian league schedule and the Senior A teams were playing more games than an NHL Schedule - 48 games. How many games did the European teams play the same hockey season? This made a big difference.

Post WWII Senior A hockey in Canada faded away as Junior and minor pro hockey took over. Following the 1954 WHC when the Senior B, not Senior A East York Lindhursts lost, the template for the Canadian representation at the world's or touring Europe changed. A nucleus with NHL experience, a number of reinstated pros and some solid NHL prospects - more numerous in 1960 when reinstated pros were not allowed for the Olympics.

This contrasted with the post WWII growth of European hockey. Until the early 1960s, European teams featured athletes that could play hockey and did so during a rather limited season but these were gradually replaced by hockey players who were athletic playing longer schedules, comparable to Canadian teams and players.

Slowly the game experience edge that Canada had disappeared, talent took over.

Same holds for the gap between Senior A and NHL teams. Pre WWII the length of schedule was roughly the same. Post WWII into the sixties the gap widened. 1963-64 OHA SR played a 40 game schedule, in a region defined by Windsor, western suburban Toronto and the Niagara peninsula;

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/ohasr19721964.html

 

[Rob Scuderi]

West Germany's Erich Kuhnhackl is a guy who dominated his domestic competition and scored a lot of goals against the B pool at the Olympics, but may or may not have done so well against the A pool (hopefully this will be examined further when he comes up for a vote). I'm just asking that Malecek be held to the same standard.

Don't want to say too much since he's not up yet, but that's not exactly accurate. West Germany was in the A pool. The concern with Kuhnhackl is that he beat up on the lesser lights of the A pool, not put up big numbers in the second division a la Doru Tureanu.

What I described seems to be exactly why you're skeptical of Malecek though.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Any thoughts on Ragulin vs. Svedberg? Should the previous opinion on these two players change?

 

[seventieslord]

It is true that the European teams couldn't touch the touring Canadian teams in the 1930s, (although they ocassionally stole a point or two from them) but there is no shame in that. Only the best amateur teams were sent over, and I am pretty sure that they would have been more than capable of giving the best pro teams in North America a run for their money.

Sure, there's no shame in that in an absolute sense, since European hockey was in its infancy. But when we're comparing Malecek to ten other players who all proved they belonged on the same sheet of ice as NHL players, it matters.

I don't doubt that the best amateur teams were being sent, but how frequently did Canada send players to compete against Malecek who had ever demonstrated solid NHL potential? Were there any past or future NHLers? What about AHLers or AHAers? If there were some of them in their prime then maybe I'd be inclined to believe they were anywhere near NHL caliber.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Were there any past or future NHLers? What about AHLers or AHAers? If there were some of them in their prime then maybe I'd be inclined to believe they were anywhere near NHL caliber.

Do a little bit of research on the Canadian guys who toured Europe in the 1930s and you might be surprised who they played with and against during their careers.
They were a lot better players than you give them credit for. This could be a discussion for another thread.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Any thoughts on Ragulin vs. Svedberg? Should the previous opinion on these two players change?

Longevity vs peak performance. Reliability vs flashiness. These two guys are another example of blueliners with totally different arsenal of skills.

Ragulin is the guy I would have out on the ice to defend a one goal lead, while Svedberg is the one I would have out there on the ice towards the end of a game if my team was trailing by a goal.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Solid NHL Potential

Sure, there's no shame in that in an absolute sense, since European hockey was in its infancy. But when we're comparing Malecek to ten other players who all proved they belonged on the same sheet of ice as NHL players, it matters.

I don't doubt that the best amateur teams were being sent, but how frequently did Canada send players to compete against Malecek who had ever demonstrated solid NHL potential? Were there any past or future NHLers? What about AHLers or AHAers? If there were some of them in their prime then maybe I'd be inclined to believe they were anywhere near NHL caliber.

1924 Olympics

Canada - Hooley Smith(HHOF), Dunc Munro, Bert McCaffery,all future NHL players plus Harry Watson(HHOF).Team USA had three future NHLers headed by Taffy Abel.

1927 Montréal Victorias - Bobby Bell former and Joe Lamb, Earl Robinson future NHLers.

Bill Cowley(HHOF) as a junior with the 1931-32 Ottawa All-Stars. Louis St.Louis the goalie turned down multiple offers to turn pro.

1934-35 Winnipeg Monarchs - Wilf Field six seasons in the NHL, Joe Krol, preferred the CFL, still played app 25 NHL games, Paul Gauthier - goalie, 1 NHL game, 8 AHL seasons.

1935-36 Port Arthur - Jim Haggerty and Bill Thomson, future NHLers.

1938-39 Trail - Joe Benoit, Bunny Dame, Johnny McCreedy future NHLers.

Without exhaustive research of the teams and high minors.

With little exception, pre WWII, future NHLers played Senior A hockey, so the Allan Cup winners faced solid opposition on the road to the championship playing against very strong in league competition plus the likes of Bill Durnan, Edgar Laprade, Doug Bentley, Elmer Lach and other future HHOFers.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Alexander Ragulin vs Lennart Svedberg

Any thoughts on Ragulin vs. Svedberg? Should the previous opinion on these two players change?

Neither is at the level of a Nikolai Sologubov who according to NHL observers was of NHL quality.

Alexander Ragulin was the European version of a big non-puck moving defenceman, with a shot, that emerged in the NHL in the early 1950s, lasting into the 1970s in response to the tough power forward like Gordie Howe, Bert Olmstead, etc. Lou Fontinato, Elmer Vasko, Albert Langlois, Ted Harris are the first that come to mind. They had to be paired with a strong puck moving defenceman otherwise they would be forechecked into oblivion. Fontinato played with Bill Gadsby, Vasko with Pierre Pilote, Langlois with Doug Harvey, Harris with J.C. Tremblay. Protected they would be very effective to the point of earning a few All-Star honours - Vasko, Harris.

Issue with Ragulin is that his honours at the elite International level stopped in 1967, before the rules were liberalized to allow the aggressive forecheck. Yet Ragulin continued playing internationally into the early 1970s, Summit Series.

Lennart Svedberg earned honours at the international level before and after the 1969 liberalization of the aggressive forechecking rules. Puck moving defenceman.
Basic issue with Svedberg seems to be his size, while 5'11" tall his 1969 Red Wing training camp weight is listed as only 165 LBS. Smaller NHL defencemen were commonplace in the sixties - Leo Boivin, Pierre Pilote, Pat Stapleton, Bobby Baun, quick list but they weighed about 15 to 20 lbs more. Stamina becomes an issue. Up thread an article was posted showing that in the final game of a WHC, where Svedberg played a leading role, the Swedish coach Arne Stromberg went to six defensemen.

These factors have to be researched and balanced. Who were the defensive partners of Svedberg and Ragulin? How were centers used to support them? etc.

 

[Batis]

The real headscratcher is in 1968 where Svedberg was second among defencemen in the All-Star voting but still lost the Guldskridskon award to Bert-Olov Nordlander who did not get any support from the international observers (or at best 6 votes).

Found this post in the International Hockey Reference thread which gives a possible explanation to this.

I tried to find answer to the 1968 question and found something. It is Swedish hockey sticker collect book from 1969 . Okay, may not be the best source, but I guess these comments might somewhat reflect Swedish opinions at the time. Here is what there was from these defencemans. My Swedish is not fluent so I give the Swedish version too.

Bert-Olov Nordlander
"Bäste uteförsvarare både i Grenoble och i vintras."
Best defenseman both in Grenoble (68) and this winter. (Or is WHC´s called vintras in Sweden)

Lars-Erik Sjöberg
Bildade tillsammans med Bert-Ola Nordlander vårt bästa backpar i VM. Internationellt genombrott.
With Nordlander formed our best defense pairing in WHC. International breakthrough.

Lennart Svedberg
Utomlands ansedd som vår bäste back. Utmärkt skridskoåkare. Ofta fjärde forward på isen.
Outside Sweden regarded as our best defenseman. Great skater. Often fourth forward on ice.

Arne Carlsson
Följsam partner till "Lill-Strimma" Svedberg.
Adaptable? pairing to Svedberg. (This one i´m most uncertain of.)

Maybe I´m reading this wrong, but it seems that there wasn´t complete admiration to Svedbergs style of hockey in Sweden.

Svedbergs high-risk high-reward style of play is also mentioned in his Swedish HHOF profile.

"Han kunde förivra sig i farliga lägen framför egen bur och glömma markeringen, för att i nästa sekund få en hel publik att tjuta av förtjusning när han på sitt eleganta vis snitsade sig förbi motståndarförsvaret."

He could act hastily in dangerous situations in front of his own net and forget his marking, just to in the next second make the whole audience howl with delight when he in his elegant manner made his way past the opposing defence.

Even if Svedbergs strong Swedish all-star record shows that he was highly regarded domestically too I get the feeling that his style of play was not as highly appreciated by the swedish observers as by the international ones at the time. With this said I would also like to add that Svedberg has a very strong legacy in Sweden and that I personally think that he soon should be added to the list. Of the defencemen I have both Sologubov and Ragulin ahead of him at the moment though.

 

[Theokritos]

Neither is at the level of a Nikolai Sologubov who according to NHL observers was of NHL quality.

That's what impresses me most about Sologubov: the unanimous praise as being an NHL calibre if not NHL star calibre defenceman by not just one or two but by a whole bunch of Canadian observers who should know (we namely got quotes by Bobby Bauer, Foster Hewitt, Milt Dunnell, Andy O'Brien, Bob Hesketh and Len Taylor). A rare and outstanding feat for a 1950s European. And his reputation in Europe goes right along with it: three individual WHC honours in the pre All-star selection era makes him the #1 in that department, and his three "Best Defenceman" awards (1956, 1957, 1960) weren't equalized until Valery Vasilyev came along.

Bobby Bauer (Canadian/Kitchener coach in 1956, former NHL All-Star) said:
“Sologubov could star on any National Hockey League team.” - 1956

Milt Dunnell, Sports Editor of the Toronto Star said:
“Sologubov and Krylov could make any National Hockey League club and be a star.” - 1956

Foster Hewitt (Hockey broadcaster) said:
“Solly is the best two-way defenceman I have seen in a long time.” - 1956

Andy O’Brien (Weekend Magazine sports editor) said:
“He could make any NHL team.” – 1956

“Canadian observers on the scene [1956 Olympics] went wild about Solly, a friendly, grinning 32-year old who displayed gold inlays from ear to ear.” - The Ottawa Citizen, January 14, 1960

“Gone are the stars of previous world and Olympic hockey tournaments including big Nikolai (Solly) Sologubov, the first Russian who learned the art of the crunching bodycheck and who rated as National Hockey League defence timber.” - The Brandon Sun, October 18, 1962

Some more from The Ottawa Gazette, February 6, 1956 (click):

Bob Hesketh (Toronto Telegram) agreed on Sologubov and Krylov: "They are great players. (...)"

Len Taylor (Kitchener-Waterloo Record) said Sologubov "always managed to be in the right place at the right time – a magnificent player."

Milt Dunnell said Krylov and Sologubov could become stars on any NHL club.
"It might take a little time for them themselves to adapt to the Canadian game. But they would make the grade without much difficulty. Both play head-up hockey and can trade bodychecks with anyone."

 

[seventieslord]

Neither is at the level of a Nikolai Sologubov who according to NHL observers was of NHL quality.

If Sologubov, the best Soviet defenseman of the 1950s, was considered to be NHL quality, then there's no doubt that the dominant soviet defenseman of the 60s was NHL quality too. The quality of soviet hockey skyrocketed during this time at all positions; there's little reason to believe they took a step back in the "#1 defenseman" category.

 

[MadArcand]

If Sologubov, the best Soviet defenseman of the 1950s, was considered to be NHL quality, then there's no doubt that the dominant soviet defenseman of the 60s was NHL quality too. The quality of soviet hockey skyrocketed during this time at all positions; there's little reason to believe they took a step back in the "#1 defenseman" category.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but that line of reasoning is not exactly sound. Just because Soviet hockey overall got better, doesn't mean the best player at a specific position was better or even equal to his predecessor.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Post Harvey - Pre Orr

If Sologubov, the best Soviet defenseman of the 1950s, was considered to be NHL quality, then there's no doubt that the dominant soviet defenseman of the 60s was NHL quality too. The quality of soviet hockey skyrocketed during this time at all positions; there's little reason to believe they took a step back in the "#1 defenseman" category.

Except for the Post Harvey - Pre Orr phenomena in the 1962 to 67 stretch when Pilote, Laperriere and Howell won the Norris. Unless you are making the point that the three listed were equals or better than Harvey and/or Orr.

No Soviet defenseman before or after Ragulin used his game or style as a template.
Likewise, Soviet goaltending between Puchkov and Tretiak dipped quite a bit.

 

[DN28]

Well, it wasn't until 1968 that they could sometimes exploit that so called main weakness. And it wasn't Konovalenko who was in the nets when the Soviets lost to Czechoslovakia by scores of 7-2 (1974 WHC), 9-3 (1974-75 Izvestia Cup) and 8-3 (1977 Izvestia tournament).

These are the quotes which I translated and posted in the 1st voting:

Jan Suchý:
"To beat the Russians, all lucky stars had to stand behind us and conversely, their hockey sticks had to be bound with bad luck. You couldn´t consistently win over Soviets, we just had some partial successes against them. Something needed to happen to them, for example their goalie not catching sufficiently. Luckily they had problems with goalies almost all the time, whether Konovalenko or Zinger was standing in their goal. Even Tretyak wasn´t such a wonderful catcher as propaganda praised him. He had no competition in Russia but would he be any supergoalie? No way. I think we had goaltenders who surpassed him, only just so strong defense weren´t standing in front of them. Russians had defense coordinated really well, even forwards were coming back and briskly backcheck, so that goalie didn´t have to solve so many difficult situations. Even though no miracle was standing in front of the goal, to score on him wasn´t easy. On the club level only our first unit (Suchý, Šmid, Klapáč, Jaroslav Holík, Jiří Holík - DN) was able to hold a step with Russians, the others were more like maintenance staff."

Jaroslav Holík:
"In Prague however, another famous goaltender faced to shots and breakaways of rivals. Actually, he defended the Soviet´s sanctuary by the second year after Viktor Konovalenko, who used to be sometimes shaky, the Vladislav Tretyak. He was thin, extremely mobile and even him, like Holeček, still kept to go down to the ice. And he had also just as closed nature. But it´s needed to add that he wasn´t very popular among his teammates. Also because he acted like a big communist! I know how highly is Tretyak´s career valued. But I can´t get rid of impression that his success was sometimes overrated. Contemporaries certainly remember all the awesome players he had in front of himself, from defensemen to forwards."

Jiří Koliš (hockey journalist/historian):
"Judging by medals and awards, Tretyak would have no competition on European rinks as a goalie. Yet critical contemporaries often times even with hindsight are not so sure about their judgements. Truth is that Vladislav Tretyak is the right example of goalie who appeared at the right time in the right team. Moreover he perhaps never lacked an almost uncritical admiration since his Canadian premiere in September of 1972, especially from overseas writers. He came to the team which was extremely good. The strength of Soviets certainly didn´t lie on their goaltender though. Viktor Konovalenko, Tretyak´s big inspiration and passionate card player, had not been shining in their goal for a longer period of time. Yet he was eight times the world champion and twice olympic winner! (...) It´s hard to get rid of a feeling that although Tretyak was great, he was somewhat overrated goalie too. As if Americans, to prove to the world their fairness and justice, made an idol from him which they just needed."

3 qoutes about Tretyak, yet mentioned Konovalenko too in not really positive way.

Dzurilla played many weak games vs. USSR too, especially in the 1960s. As a matter of fact, in some Finnish hockey books Dzurilla is called (my free translation) 'CCCP-phobic', and apparently he couldn't handle Vyacheslav Starshinov (in front of the net) at all. For example, the reason why Jiri Holecek got the chance to play in his first game (?) at the WHCs (1966) was that the Soviets scored 3 goals on Dzurilla inside 5 minutes. A similar thing happened in the 1964 OG/WHC, when Vladimir Nadrchal replaced him in the nets.
To be fair, at least from the 1969 WHC on, I think, Dzurilla started to play occasionally well against the Soviets. But it's Jiri Holecek who was the goalie hero in nearly all of Czechoslovakia's famous triumphs over USSR.

Agree that in general Dzurilla wasn´t as good against the Soviets (and certainly not as good as Holecek). But that´s strongly influenced by his style which suited greatly against NA north-south style of play.

His results against NA in his prime (63-72):

WC 1963
Czechoslovakia - USA 10:1 (Dzurilla played 2nd half of the game)

WC 1965
Czechoslovakia - Canada 8:0

WC 1966
Czechoslovakia - USA 7:4
Czechoslovakia - Canada 2:1

OG 1968
Czechoslovakia - USA 5:1
Czechoslovakia - Canada 2:3

WC 1969
Czechoslovakia - Canada 6:1
Czechoslovakia - USA 8:3 (Dzurilla played first 2 periods only)
Czechoslovakia - Canada 3:2

OG 1972
Czechoslovakia - USA 1:5 (Dzurilla received only one goal as he replaced Holecek after 2nd period and 4 US goals)

One has to wonder how different would be Holecek´ and Dzurilla´s reputation, had they been given an opportunity to play in NHL.

And let´s not forget that it was Dzurilla (not Suchy) who became the main hero of the Championship in Stockholm in 1969 after his games against Soviets. He got the highest praise in Czech newspapers at the time with headlines such as "Dzurilla vs. USSR 2:0" or "Dzurilla beats the Red army".

IMO Dzurilla was a quite inconsistent goalie, and - even if we leave Tretyak and Holecek out - he was not much better even than other European top goalies of his time (Konovalenko, Holmqvist, Ylönen, Valtonen).

Spread out, fair enough, but what about his total absence in 1973-75 (plus 1967 & 1971)? And him being only the backup goalie in 1972 and 1976 (WHCs)? Your list also highlights the fact that Dzurilla's international record is quite 'narrow'. For example, if the 1972 OG was one of his best tournaments, what does that say about his international career really? In the YouTube highlights, he looks terrible in the game vs. USSR; Holecek took over after USSR's third goal, I think.
His performance in the 1976 Canada Cup was inconsistent too; sure, he was very good in the round robin game against Canada, but let in 4 goals - a couple of them bad ones (watch the Perreault goal, for example ) - in the first period of g1 of the final. He looked very good in g2 of the final (after taking over for Holecek) at first, but imo the 4th and 5th Team Canada goals were very much his goals. In the 1977 WHC, I guess he played well generally, but allowed 8 goals (when facing only 21 shots! 1977 IHWC, Austria) in CSSR's last medal round game against Canada, and that nearly cost Czechoslovakia the world championship; luckily for them, Sweden (again) beat the Soviet Union in the last game of the tournament, and so CSSR got the gold medal.

As I said, Dzurilla was rather above average goalie, but not clearly the best in Europe in any point in his career. He did that for much longer time than Konovalenko, Holmqvist, Valtonen or Ylonen though. He was supposed to be done in early 70s at least, just like some of these goalies above, unlike them though, Dzurilla managed to have some great performances in strong competition when he was out of his prime. This is the main thing that separates them and him (+ Konovalenko´s poor reputation at least here in CR).

Thanks to Theokritos´ recent post, avlh.sweb.cz and few other sources, we can have a decent overview of Dzurilla´s career statistically.

WC 1963
Vladimír Dzurilla: 4 games / 211 min / 8 goals allowed / 2,27 GAA
Josef Mikoláš: 4 games / 209 min / 8 goals allowed / 2,30 GAA
- not bad first WC, basically on the same level as experienced Mikolas who was the hero of WC 1961 (first silver for Czechs since 1948)

OG 1964
Vladimír Nadrchal: 7 games / 409:19 min / 17 goals allowed / 167 saves / 91,76 %
Vladimír Dzurilla: 2 games / 70:41 min / 4 goals allowed / 29 saves / 87,88 %
- obviously not good WC from Dzurilla

WC 1965

1965 World Championship
PDF: Jääkiekkokirja 1965-1966 (p.161)

- dominant WC from Dzurilla, best SV among goalies who played significant amount of games, All-star goalie and Best goalie award from Directoriate

WC 1966
Vladimír Dzurilla: 6 games / 304:02 min / 10 goals allowed / 91 saves / 90,10 %
Jiří Holeček: 2 games / 115:58 min / 5 goals allowed / 31 saves / 86,11 %
- solid but not great perfomance by Dzurilla here

WC 1967
- Dzurilla didn´t play because of injury, stats are following:

1967 World Championship
PDF: Jääkiekkokirja 1967-1968 (p.120)

- so Dzurilla missed this WC and it became the only championship between 1963-1979 where Czechoslovaks didn´t get any medal!

OG 1968

1968 Olympics
PDF: Jääkiekkokirja 1968-1969 (p.191)

- not great Dzurilla´s tournament, he was 6th in SV% among number one goalies, his team however played well, earning silver and beating USSR in their game (with Dzurilla in net)

WC 1969

1969 World Championship
PDF: Jääkiekkokirja 1969-1970 (p.118)

- Excellent WC from Dzurilla, he was All-star goalie and Holmqvist was Directoriate´s choice but Dzurilla had slightly better SV% (and best among number one goalies)

WC 1970
Vladimír Dzurilla: 10 games / 560:00 min / 28 goals allowed / 200 saves / 87,72 %
Miroslav Lacký: 1 game / 40:00 min / 2 goals allowed / 16 saves / 88,89 %
- weak tournament from Dzurilla

WC 1971
Dzurilla was missing. At this time they were 1a / 1b with Marcel Sakáč in Slovan Bratislava and in this season Sakáč outplayed him and got a chance. Sakáč played also at WHC 1979 when his team (still Slovan) won its 1st league title and he was picked instead of Crha who was supposed to be Holecek´s successor. Crha subsequently defected to NA.

OG 1972
1. Michael Curran: 5 games / 194 saves / 15 goals allowed / 92.8 %
2. Vladimír Dzurilla: 5 games / 87 saves / 7 goals allowed / 92.6 %
3. Leif Holmqvist: 3 games / 82 saves / 7 goals allowed / 92.1 %
4. Vladislav Tretyak: 5 games / 133 saves / 13 goals allowed / 91.1 %
5. Christer Abrahamsson: 2 games / 54 saves / 6 goals allowed / 90.0 %
6. Jorma Valtonen: 5 games / 140 saves / 24 goals allowed / 85.4 %
7. Walery Kosyl: 5 games / 115 saves / 26 goals allowed / 81.6 %
8. Jiří Holeček: 2 games / 26 saves / 6 goals allowed / 81.3 %
9. Andrzej Tkacz: 2 games / 52 saves / 13 goals allowed / 80.0 %
- very good performance statistically at least, only Curran who played out of his mind in that Olympics had better stats, Vlado started here as backup but outplayed Holecek

WC 1972
Jiří Holeček: 6 games / 360:00 min / 10 goals allowed / 137 saves / 93,20 %
Vladimír Dzurilla: 4 games / 240:00 min / 6 goals allowed / 63 saves / 91,30 %
- solid backup but Holecek was obviously hero in this one

WC 1973 until OG 1976
- Dzurilla did not play
- according to Miloslav Jenšík´s profile in his book about Czech(oslovak) goalies ("Než přišel Dominátor"), Dzurilla went through a "prolonged crisis" in this period. He got sacked in Slovan (I guess Sakac finally outplayed him) and went to Zetor Brno. Not surprising as he was over 30 years thus his decline was to be expected. With this in mind, it´s impressive how he bounced back in 1976 though.
- his very poor results in GS voting confirm this. He got only 5 votes during these 3 seasons.

WC 1976
Jiří Holeček: 8 games / 480:00 min/ 13 goals allowed / 214 saves / 94,27 %
Vladimír Dzurilla: 2 games / 120:00 min / 1 goal allowed / 41 saves / 97,62 %
- another solid backup but only two games against weak opponents

CC 1976
1. Rogatien Vachon: 7 games / 432 minutes / .940 SV% / 1.39 GAA
2. Vladimír Dzurilla: 5 games / 228 minutes / .920 SV% / 2.36 GAA
3. Vladislav Tretiak: 5 games / 300 minutes / .912 SV% / 2.80 GAA
4. Pete LoPresti: 2 games / 120 minutes / .895 SV% / 3.00 GAA
5. Jiří Holeček: 5 games / 203 minutes / .861 SV% / 3.25 GAA
- great tournament, 2nd best SV% after Vachon (.920 against best of best when he was 34 y/o), shutout versus Canada, clearly outplayed Holecek

WC 1977 (stats are taken from link that you posted here)
1. Goran Hogosta: 7 games / 95.81 %
2. Vladislav Tretiak: 9 games / 91.83 %
3. David Reece: 5 games / 90.42 %
4. Anthony Esposito: 9 games / 89.14 %
5. Jorma Valtonen: 7 games / 89.13 %
6. Hardy Astrom: 4 games / 89.01 %
7. Vladimir Dzurilla: 7 games / 88.75 %
8. Jiri Holecek: 4 games / 87.04 %
9. Sigmund Suttner: 6 games / 85.71 %
10. Alexandr Sidelnikov: 4 games / 85.42 %
11. Urpo Ylonen: 4 games / 85.12 %
12. Valerian Netedu: 10 games / 84.53 %
13. James Rutherford: 2 games / 84.21 %
14. Michael Curran: 5 games / 84.12 %
- Dzurilla´s rather average WC, but he eventually outplayed Holecek in his prime and won gold medal when he was almost 35 years old, so I would definitely consider this WC positively

Dzurilla´s Golden stick voting record in seasons where he became number one goalie in one tournament at least:
1969 - 5th
1970 - 4th
1972 - 3th
1977 - 6th

In how many of those tournaments was Dzurilla the #1 goalie for CSSR and Lindmark for SWE?

Dzurilla was number one 8 times, in 1963 there wasn´t number one, he and Mikolas were 1a/1b. 3 more times as backup.

I don´t know about Lindmark and honestly don´t have as much time to dig it up now.

 

[steve141]

Even if Svedbergs strong Swedish all-star record shows that he was highly regarded domestically too I get the feeling that his style of play was not as highly appreciated by the swedish observers as by the international ones at the time. With this said I would also like to add that Svedberg has a very strong legacy in Sweden and that I personally think that he soon should be added to the list. Of the defencemen I have both Sologubov and Ragulin ahead of him at the time though.

Concering his legacy: There was a vote among the general public in 1987 where an all-time national team was selected. Svedberg was voted best RD, winning in a landslide before runners up Roland Stoltz and Anders Eldebrink.

Here's a couple of clips from the show where his election was announced.




Interesting points:
* Lot's of talk about how fenomenal his skating was, but also his puck-handling.
* One quote from National Team coach Arne Strömberg: "He wasn't like one of those Bobby Orr-wannabe's nowadays who try to attack by themselves as soon as they get the puck, a kind of transport worker with the puck. He would play the puck. If there was anyone open, he would play it. He understood that the puck was three times as fast as any player." Considering most of the usual highlight clips feature him rushing the puck, I thought this was interesting.
* Arne Strömberg also makes a point about him being a good hitter, especially doing hipchecks at a high speed.
* He is described as small and skinny, but able to take a lot of abuse. They also mention his surprising bodily strength here, something about doing knee-bends with Ragulin and Kuskin on his back.
* Like Tumba before him, he was invited to train with the Soviets for a mutual exchange of knowledge. He even suited up for CSKA Moscow for a game against Dynamo Moscow.
* He is described by fellow hockey player Eje Lindstrom as still playing at peak level when he passed away.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Between the Two World Wars

Assuming for a moment that it is true that Canada sent better teams to the WHCs before WW2, would it really matter when Malecek's Czechoslovakia regularly got their butts kicked by the USA and Canadian-augmented Great Britain teams? Or did the USA and Britain send better teams than Canada (or anyone else) did after WW2, as well?

There seems to be a sense that only Britain took advantage of importing Canadian or foreign players, management during this time frame.

Britain did it en masse and won the 1936 Olympic Gold as a result. We know about Mike Buckna and his travels and contributions to ice hockey in Czechoslovakia.

The following segment about Frank Gorman, Tommy Gorman's son and his experiences in England show the extent of the transcontinental hockey travel. Hugh Farquarson, a Canadian international was playing in France. Sure that research would turn up others.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HX4tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_ZgFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6900,1730651

The other interesting aspects is that it seems that the 1927 Montréal Victoria tour helped establish multiple contacts that were sustained. One of the Victoria players was Frank Carlin who by the thirties was established in Senior and Junior hockey - Montréal Royals was close to Tommy Gorman.

 

[Batis]

Concering his legacy: There was a vote among the general public in 1987 where an all-time national team was selected. Svedberg was voted best RD, winning in a landslide before runners up Roland Stoltz and Anders Eldebrink.

Here's a couple of clips from the show where his election was announced.

Thank you for posting those clips. Very interesting to watch them.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Excellent Contribution

Concering his legacy: There was a vote among the general public in 1987 where an all-time national team was selected. Svedberg was voted best RD, winning in a landslide before runners up Roland Stoltz and Anders Eldebrink.

Here's a couple of clips from the show where his election was announced.




Interesting points:
* Lot's of talk about how fenomenal his skating was, but also his puck-handling.
* One quote from National Team coach Arne Strömberg: "He wasn't like one of those Bobby Orr-wannabe's nowadays who try to attack by themselves as soon as they get the puck, a kind of transport worker with the puck. He would play the puck. If there was anyone open, he would play it. He understood that the puck was three times as fast as any player." Considering most of the usual highlight clips feature him rushing the puck, I thought this was interesting.
* Arne Strömberg also makes a point about him being a good hitter, especially doing hipchecks at a high speed.
* He is described as small and skinny, but able to take a lot of abuse. They also mention his surprising bodily strength here, something about doing knee-bends with Ragulin and Kuskin on his back.
* Like Tumba before him, he was invited to train with the Soviets for a mutual exchange of knowledge. He even suited up for CSKA Moscow for a game against Dynamo Moscow.
* He is described by fellow hockey player Eje Lindstrom as still playing at peak level when he passed away.

Excellent contribution, especially the videos.

Could you explain how in Swedish ice hockey the role of the RD differs from the LD? The requirements, the qualities, etc.

Some of the clips were very revealing. There are certain similarities between Lennart Svedberg and J.C. Tremblay one of his NHL contemporaries.

Both started as forwards, both played RD although Tremblay was a LHS, roughly the same size - height, Tremblay weighed 5 lbs more. In the neutral or offensive zone both favoured arcs using their skating and span to advandtage. Similar to a degree in the defensive zone except for the handedness. Excellent anticipation, first pass, head manned the puck.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

.....

 

[Canadiens1958]

Movement in Europe

^^^ Informative post. By 1927 European players were moving across borders to play hockey in return for a benefit. Seems to have been rather common.

Link to an article about Dave Campbell:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=XnYtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jZgFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6661,2298938

Seems he was one of the leading "Hockey Tourists" or mercenary of the time.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Glad to see Kapustin available; an excellent skater and sharpshooter, and his international record is superior than that of some forwards who have already gotten on the list like Novy and Balderis. Was terrific already in his first WHC as a 21-year old in 1974. Played in two legendary Team USSR 2nd lines; Kapustin-Zhluktov-Balderis (the more famous one, CSKA & ntl team) and Kapustin-Shepelev-Shalimov (imo the better one, Spartak & ntl team). His SPOTY record isn't overly great, was he maybe considered a little too 'one-dimensional' (goal-scorer) by the Soviets themselves, I don't know? I like the fact that despite missing much of the 1979-80 season (injured) he came back very strongly in his late 20s in 1981-82. Was even a top 5 scorer domestically as late as 1985-86.

Sergei Kapustin [1953-1995] is worth some ink.

Kapustin was a powerful skater and quickly became a crowd favorite with Moscow fans. They loved his flair and skills. He was hard to stop once he got going towards the net. Technically Kapustin was a world class player.

In 1971 legendary coach Boris Kulagin called him “the greatest talent of Soviet ice hockey for the past 25 years”. As a 13-year old (1966) he was chosen as the best hockey player in his age category in the country, quite the accomplishment. Played for the Krylja Sovetov senior team as a 15-year old.

He was a World Championship tournament All-Star in 1978 and 1981. Often formed a line with Helmut Balderis and Victor Zhluktov. Also played on a line with Viktor Shalimov and Sergey Shepelev.

NHL-teams showed an interest in him but the political climate back then didn’t allow him to test his luck in North America, even though he was drafted by NY Rangers in 1982. He retired in 1988 and put up very solid numbers in the league.

He officially died of an heart attack at the age of 42, but former teammate Aleksander Kozhevnikov said that he was beaten to death in hospital. He had been admitted to hospital while being drunk to treat an infection in his elbow. Doctors suspected gangrene.
A scuffle ensued in the hospital and he was beaten to death (Kozhevnikov). No autopsy was made and the matter was covered up according to Kozhevnikov.
Inducted into the Russian HHOF.

Tragic end to one of the most talented Russian players of his generation.

 

[VMBM]

He officially died of an heart attack at the age of 42, but former teammate Aleksander Kozhevnikov said that he was beaten to death in hospital. He had been admitted to hospital while being drunk to treat an infection in his elbow. Doctors suspected gangrene.
A scuffle ensued in the hospital and he was beaten to death (Kozhevnikov). No autopsy was made and the matter was covered up according to Kozhevnikov.
Inducted into the Russian HHOF.

Tragic end to one of the most talented Russian players of his generation.

Thanks for this info - no matter how 'unofficial' it is. While dying of heart attack at 42 would not be totally unique, I have always had questions about Kapustin's death, but had not gotten any answers, only that he was not doing so well after his hockey career, like unfortunately it is the case of so many other Soviet players.

 

[VMBM]

I guess there is not going to be much discussion on Alexandrov and his worth?

I'll try to get some grip on him... Previously I thought that he would be my #1 player in this vote, but it's not set in stone.
His numbers both domestically and internationally are easily impressive enough for him to be the top candidate. On the other hand, the accolades are not overly great and despite the claims to contrary, his reputation internationally does not seem to be so huge.

Domestic stats of Alexandrov and some of his contemporaries:

Veniamin Alexandrov: 345 goals in 400 games, 0.862 GPG
Vyacheslav Starshinov: 404 goals in 537 games, 0.752 GPG
Anatoly Firsov: 339 goals in 474 games, 0.715 GPG
Boris Mayorov: 255 goals in 400 games, 0.637 GPG

This is where Alexandrov looks very impressive. And the scant assist info from the 1960s suggests that he would have been one of the beneficiaries, if the assists had mattered in the scoring race back then. On the other hand, I'm not crazy about basing much on such scattered information, and obviously the way in which assists were awarded in the Soviet Union raises some questions. It should also be noted that Alexandrov played on USSR's best club team and for about 7 years on USSR's best forward line, and in 1961-66 or so his linemate Almetov could match him almost every season in terms of goal-scoring. BTW, is there any more information on Alexandrov's huge 1962-63 season? Not that 53 goals in itself sounds impossible, but considering that it's very nearly twice as much as the 2nd best scorer... that never quite happened even in Bobrov's heyday, not to mention in any other era; everything must have worked for Alexandrov in that season.

International stats (WHC/Olympics) of Alexandrov and some of his contemporaries:

Anatoly Firsov: 67 games, 66 goals, 51 assists, 117 points, 1.746 PPG
Veniamin Alexandrov: 76 games, 68 goals, 48 assists, 116 points, 1.526 PPG
Vyacheslav Starshinov: 79 games, 64 goals, 31 assists, 95 points, 1.202 PPG
Boris Mayorov: 50 games, 30 goals, 32 assists, 62 points, 1.24 PPG

Alexandrov still looks impressive, although Firsov is obviously the man here (and well, partly thus he is the #4 player of all-time on our list). A little more detailed examination shows that Alexandrov had a few really big tournaments statistically but was more often at the lower part of top 10 in scoring. However, his international stats certainly stand a comparison to the other candidates (skaters/forwards) in this vote, and it probably wouldn't even be much of an exaggeration to say that they are the best of the bunch.

Domestic & international accolades

And this is where Alexandrov starts to look not-so-great vis-a-vis many other Soviet greats. Maybe not too much weight should be put on those Soviet All-Star teams, but I have yet not seen anything that would convince me to totally disregard them. Now, Alexandrov has only 2 All-Star nods; even players like Viktor Yakushev and Konstantin Loktev have the same amount, not to mention that Boris Mayorov and Alexander Almetov have 3. Also, if the argument against Starshinov and his 8 All-Star berths is that they (often/mostly) chose 1 center and 2 wingers and the competition at center was weak, isn't the argument against Alexandrov that in all but two seasons he was NOT considered to be among the top 2 wingers in the Soviet Union?! There are quite a few questions that remain about the All-Star selections (criteria etc), but let's just say that at least they don't add much to Alexandrov's legacy. Maybe noteworthy is, however, that the other one of Alexandrov's All-Star nods is from the 1967-68 season, when he was already 30/31 (and he did well in the SPOTY voting too). I still have to doubt that it was among his best seasons, but there you go...
Internationally, Alexandrov doesn't stand out much; 2 All-Star nods (1966,1967) is certainly okay for a 1960s Soviet forward (Mayorov 1, no other accolades; Starshinov 0, 1 Best Forward award), but when you take into consideration that Loktev & Almetov have 2 each also, it fails to impress. Then again, if we had all the voting results, it would be much easier to do some sort of analysis. So I'll just say that Alexandrov never seemed to make as big an impression at the WHCs/OG as some other Soviet stars did.

The next passage from Alexandrov's bio on International Hockey Legends also got me thinking a bit:

In 1966 both Loktev and Almetov retired, leaving Alexandrov to struggle with new line combinations for three seasons. "The Lone Ranger" as he was nicknamed was said to have become increasingly more disillusioned with hockey as he continued on his own. He seemed impatient with the following generation of players, such as Boris Mikhailov and Vladimir Petrov, who he teamed with late in his career. Unfortunately, the great hockey master Alexandrov was lost without the genuine partnership and trust he had shared with Loktev and Almetov.

Firstly, Almetov did not retire in 1966 (in 1967), and Alexandrov played one of his best (maybe THE best) WHCs in 1967, so he didn't seem to struggle much in 1966-67. Also, it is not like Alexandrov did not achieve anything without the other two (e.g. the Soviet AS berth & 6th in the SPOTY voting in 1967-68), and it is hardly his fault that he happened to play with them during his prime years. Still, is there some truth in this?
When Tarasov once wrote about Almetov's line, he suggested that while they were very good in their own time, they would not have been so succesful in the 'modern hockey' (they needed 'too much room' to be effective). However, I've understood that Tarasov was talking mainly about Almetov and his early downfall (his conditioning/physics was not good enough anymore around 1967). As for Alexandrov's role in nurturing Mikhailov and Petrov, Finnish sources mostly just say that he was the player that Kharlamov replaced on the line with M and P. In one book (Talviurheilun sankarit) it is even said that Alexandrov 'failed' in that job, although the reasoning for that is simply that Kharlamov replaced him (!); well, he was 31 years old back then, it's no wonder.

Basically, the stats say "yes", but the rest say "I don't know". Part of me thinks that Alexandrov was a bit unfortunate to not have been born a few years later; as it was, he played on CSKA/ntl team in an era when the collective thinking was maybe at its peak (e.g. even the IIHF directorate couldn't decide who the best player/forward on the team was), and he totally missed the so called golden age of Soviet hockey, whereas somewhat younger '60s stars like Starshinov and especially Firsov were still big impact players in the late '60s/early '70s.

He'll certainly be in my top 4, but where exactly? It's tough.