ted2019
History of Hockey
I don't think he's a strong enough candidate this round. He was just outside My top 20 when I sent in My original vote and I still feel that way.
Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Wingers)
- Thread starter Hawkey Town 18
- Start date
I don't think he's a strong enough candidate this round. He was just outside My top 20 when I sent in My original vote and I still feel that way.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
My apologies if I made a mistake somewhere but one can see the distortion with the small number of assists and Cy was playing relatively full seasons back then, hull in 99 played in 60 games, his pace easily gets him into 6th place past Niewendyk right?(not to mention how Dmen in modern times can be leaders on teams in assists much more easily than in Denneny's time)
The assertion put forward earlier that Denneny was somehow near the top this round of play makers simply doesn't pass the smell test here.
Not for your nose, maybe.
Dennis Bonvie
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unknown33
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Isn't 10 years like nearly a full career for most players?
It is but like I mentioned earlier if 3 guys all have 15 year career and similar 10 year peaks and then 1 of the guys was a 3rd liner outside of that time, while the other 2 guys were still legit top line top 6 guys it's a difference worth noting.
Maybe it's a perception thing but even Iggy's Hart is often contested as being not deserved or a weak year.
Iggy is more consistently very good compared to say Moore or MSL who peaked higher.
Canadiens1958
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MXD
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Huummmm.. Is that a typo or did I miss something about Iginla winning the Hart?
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Martin St. Louis
Perhaps four seasons at the extreme end:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/stlouma01.html
Perhaps four seasons at the extreme end:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/stlouma01.html
MXD
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Captain Bowie
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Just going to throw some lists together, feel free to tell me I'm an idiot and out to lunch, where to better place guys, ect...
Goal-scoring:
1. Brett Hull
2. Cy Denneny
3. Jarome Iginla
4. Jari Kurri
5. Aurele Joliat
6. Busher Jackson
7. Dickie Moore
8. Doug Bentley
9. Toe Blake
10. Martin St. Louis
Boris Mikhailov?
Playmaking:
1. Martin St. Louis
2. Doug Bentley (unlike goals, has strong assist finishes after war years)
3. Dickie Moore
4. Aurele Joliat
5. Cy Denneny (despite questions about assist validity, no real concrete proof to completely hold it against him. Maybe I knocked him a couple spots because of it though.)
6. Toe Blake
7. Jarome Iginla
8. Busher Jackson
9. Jarri Kurri
10. Brett Hull
Boris Mikhailov?
Strictly Defensive Play:
1. Jari Kurri
2. Aurele Joliat
3. Toe Blake
4. Dickie Moore
5. Busher Jackson
6. Jarome Iginla
7. Martin St. Louis
8. Doug Bentley
9. Cy Denneny
10. Brett Hull
Boris Mikhailov?
Kurri and the Hull really the only ones I'm sure of...
"Intangibles":
Includes Physicality, going to dirty areas, puck carrier vs. non, Intimidation/Enforcer (more relevant in early eras?), Character issues (lack thereof), Leadership, ect....
This will be a tough one...
1. Toe Blake
2. Dickie Moore
3. Jarome Iginla
4. Aurele Joliat
5. Busher Jackson
6. Doug Bentley
7. Jari Kurri
8. Cy Denneny
9. Martin St. Louis
10. Brett Hull
Boris Mikhailov?
Playoff Impact:
1. Jari Kurri
2. Brett Hull
3. Cy Denneny
4. Dickie Moore
5. Jarome Iginla
6. Martin St. Louis
7. Toe Blake
8. Busher Jackson
9. Doug Bentley
10. Aurele Joliat
Boris Mikhailov?
Team Help:
Ranking the likelihood, and to the extent that, their numbers were influenced by team situation, linemates, ect... Ranking from least to most
1. Jarome Iginla
2. Doug Bentley
3. Martin St. Louis
4. Busher Jackson
5. Toe Blake
6. Brett Hull
7. Aurele Joliat
8. Dickie Moore
9. Cy Denneny
10. Jari Kurri
Boris Mikhailov?
Peak Only:
1. Brett Hull
2. Dickie Moore
3. Cy Denneny
4. Doug Bentley
5. Busher Jackson
6. Jari Kurri
7. Martin St. Louis
8. Jarome Iginla
9. Toe Blake
10. Aurele Joliat
Boris Mikhailov?
Prime Length/Consistency:
1. Aurele Joliat
2. Toe Blake
3. Cy Denneny
4. Brett Hull
5. Jari Kurri
6. Doug Bentley
7. Jarome Iginla
8. Martin St. Louis
9. Busher Jackson
10. Dickie Moore
Boris Mikhailov?
I repeat, please tell me where I'm way off base, and help me get these lists more accuracte, or if any category is irrelevant/unimportant, or if I am missing a category to rank.
Goal-scoring:
1. Brett Hull
2. Cy Denneny
3. Jarome Iginla
4. Jari Kurri
5. Aurele Joliat
6. Busher Jackson
7. Dickie Moore
8. Doug Bentley
9. Toe Blake
10. Martin St. Louis
Boris Mikhailov?
Playmaking:
1. Martin St. Louis
2. Doug Bentley (unlike goals, has strong assist finishes after war years)
3. Dickie Moore
4. Aurele Joliat
5. Cy Denneny (despite questions about assist validity, no real concrete proof to completely hold it against him. Maybe I knocked him a couple spots because of it though.)
6. Toe Blake
7. Jarome Iginla
8. Busher Jackson
9. Jarri Kurri
10. Brett Hull
Boris Mikhailov?
Strictly Defensive Play:
1. Jari Kurri
2. Aurele Joliat
3. Toe Blake
4. Dickie Moore
5. Busher Jackson
6. Jarome Iginla
7. Martin St. Louis
8. Doug Bentley
9. Cy Denneny
10. Brett Hull
Boris Mikhailov?
Kurri and the Hull really the only ones I'm sure of...
"Intangibles":
Includes Physicality, going to dirty areas, puck carrier vs. non, Intimidation/Enforcer (more relevant in early eras?), Character issues (lack thereof), Leadership, ect....
This will be a tough one...
1. Toe Blake
2. Dickie Moore
3. Jarome Iginla
4. Aurele Joliat
5. Busher Jackson
6. Doug Bentley
7. Jari Kurri
8. Cy Denneny
9. Martin St. Louis
10. Brett Hull
Boris Mikhailov?
Playoff Impact:
1. Jari Kurri
2. Brett Hull
3. Cy Denneny
4. Dickie Moore
5. Jarome Iginla
6. Martin St. Louis
7. Toe Blake
8. Busher Jackson
9. Doug Bentley
10. Aurele Joliat
Boris Mikhailov?
Team Help:
Ranking the likelihood, and to the extent that, their numbers were influenced by team situation, linemates, ect... Ranking from least to most
1. Jarome Iginla
2. Doug Bentley
3. Martin St. Louis
4. Busher Jackson
5. Toe Blake
6. Brett Hull
7. Aurele Joliat
8. Dickie Moore
9. Cy Denneny
10. Jari Kurri
Boris Mikhailov?
Peak Only:
1. Brett Hull
2. Dickie Moore
3. Cy Denneny
4. Doug Bentley
5. Busher Jackson
6. Jari Kurri
7. Martin St. Louis
8. Jarome Iginla
9. Toe Blake
10. Aurele Joliat
Boris Mikhailov?
Prime Length/Consistency:
1. Aurele Joliat
2. Toe Blake
3. Cy Denneny
4. Brett Hull
5. Jari Kurri
6. Doug Bentley
7. Jarome Iginla
8. Martin St. Louis
9. Busher Jackson
10. Dickie Moore
Boris Mikhailov?
I repeat, please tell me where I'm way off base, and help me get these lists more accuracte, or if any category is irrelevant/unimportant, or if I am missing a category to rank.
Ya I was going off memory he won the goal scoring (and points title in the same year) title instead.
the point of it was that Iggy has been a very good and consistent goal scoring guy for a very long time and has raw stat totals higher than his absolute peak would value him at.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Jackson ahead of joliat in goal scoring. Mikhailov very similar to Iginla.
I would personally put Denneny up two slots in playmaking. Again, mikhailov similar to Iginla.
For defense, Jackson should be ahead of no one but hull. Mikhailov a bit better than Iginla. Moore 2nd, Bentley should be around joliat and Blake.
Intangibles: mikhailov, Iginla, Blake, Moore, joliat, Denneny, Jackson, Bentley, Kurri, st. Louis, hull.
Playoffs (or international): Denneny, Kurri, Blake, Moore, hull, mikhailov, joliat, Jackson, st. Louis, Iginla, Bentley
Team help: if you don't think at.Louis doesn't being at or near the bottom of this list I don't know what to tell you. Iginla is first, I definitely agree. The others, just go down the list... The kid line, the punch line, Morenz, oates, gretzky, dynasty habs, dynasty senators, Kharlamov... you could almost put them in any order. In many cases you could argue these team situations hindered individual numbers too.
I think you're fairly close on peak, but drop Kurri down two spots.
For the last one, Denneny is definitely number one, and drop Kurri down to the bottom. Not sure why you think Blake and joliat deserve to be so high, and Iginla so low.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Re: AoS's lists - I'm not going to nitpick it too badly since it's tough putting together these lists, and I realize there are always some close calls that always involve a judgment call, but a few of the rankings are just unacceptable:
1) The places of Jackson and Bentley on "pure defense." I think you need to read over the information presented about them again.
2) Toe Blake and Aurel Joliat so low for playoffs. Hull so high for playoffs
3) Hull so high for length of peak/prime (It's only 3 years, right?)
1) The places of Jackson and Bentley on "pure defense." I think you need to read over the information presented about them again.
2) Toe Blake and Aurel Joliat so low for playoffs. Hull so high for playoffs
3) Hull so high for length of peak/prime (It's only 3 years, right?)
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Iginla should be higher than he is, but Joliat's prime was incredibly long for his era.
Captain Bowie
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Why should he be so low? Yeah, he played with usually one of Lecavalier and Richards (and Prospal, I think?) and then Stamkos for a couple years on the Lightning.
Were these teams a dynasty? No. Were they perennial contenders? No. They won 2 division titles in 02/03 and 03/04. Made playoffs half the time.
Were his linemates HoFers? Richards/Lecavalier very unlikely. Stamkos TBD, but possible.
3-4 years with an elite sniper, and a few others with "good" players isn't exactly along the lines of Gretz, Morenz, Richards (Maurice/Henri, not Brad), ect....
Captain Bowie
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1) I just finished reading the whole thread start to finish. Feel free to reiterate points made on their defence. Don't recall much discussed about them, other than Jackson being the dedicated back-checker of the line.
2) Hull was an impact player in the playoffs for 2 cup winning teams in his mid-late 30's. Had some great years in STL (particularly 90 and 91). 2 years for St. Louis, 2 years for Dallas and 1 year for Detroit he was outstanding. Years outside of that he finished 2nd (88), 3rd (89), 1st (92), 1st (93), 3rd (94), 2nd (95), 3rd (96), 1st (97), t1st (01, at 36) on his team in scoring.
On 2nd glance, I was probably unfair to Blake. But I still don't see what is so special about Joliat in the playoffs, especially when compared to Denneny.
3) Hull's peak was 3 years. His prime was arguably 12 years (89/90-00/01) with a couple obvious down years in between. But he had essentially 10 prime-worthy years in that span. Could even throw in 02/03, finishing 8th in goals at 38 pretty impressive.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Come on, it takes me over an hour to put together the snippets from the player bios into the "non-offensive abilities of Original 6 players" post.
Anyway, Busher Jackson was known for never backchecking and Doug Bentley was known as one of the best two-way players of his era. (Bentley was the back-checker of his line).
Think Ovechkin-lite for Jackson. Meaning prime hard hitting, hard driving Ovechkin. (I've wanted to find a place to say this, so thanks for giving me a chance.
). I think that's a pretty average record for this round. I mean, Hull over Denneny, Moore, and Blake in the playoffs seems really strange.
Leading a team in playoff scoring in a 26-30 team league that loses early while playing bad defense? Meh. That's Martin St. Louis territory, but with worse defense. Yes, he had more good runs that St. Louis.
Where would you rank Hull in order of importance on the 2002 Red Wings?
How can you say Hull has the highest peak then if you are using 10 years? His dropoff after 3 is dramatic.
I see it as Hull having a very high peak, very short (and overall fairly weak for this round) prime, and pretty high career value. He was a productive player after his best 3 years, but I don't really think he was really a superstar anymore.
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You are under-selling Hull in an extreme way. I know you aren't fond of his all-around play, but please take a second look at his offensive numbers, you are way off.
People like to think of Hull as having a three year prime, when in actuality he had a three year peak where he absolutely dominated everybody else in the goal scoring race (winning by a margin of 68%, 30%, 16%).
Outside of that peak he had 11 consecutive years scoring over PPG, how is that a three year prime?
Hull was top ten in goal scoring as a 38 year old, how is that a three year prime?
Say all you want about Hull's overall game, but he aged remarkably well.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
St.Louis has definitely had superior linemates compared to most similarly skilled players during his career. Furthermore, check overpass' post about east versus west, then further adjust for playing in the weakest division for a decade. That still counts as a "team situation".
Bentley was the designated back checker for the pony line. Jackson was not the dedicated back checker of any line. I think you're confusing the two.
Hull was 4th most important to Dallas' cup at best, arguably 7th. In Detroit he was 7th at best. He had nice numbers in st.Louis but they also never really went anywhere, and he was a poor two way player at the time. His playoff impact is really nothing special in this round.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I guess it depends on how you define "prime." If Hull's 38 year old season is part of his "prime, then he has easily the lowest quality of play in his prime of anyone this round.
Compare to someone like Joliat or Iginla who were superstars for a decade or so each. Hull saw a major dropoff in his play after 1991-92.
Captain Bowie
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Come on, it takes me over an hour to put together the snippets from the player bios into the "non-offensive abilities of Original 6 players" post.
Anyway, Busher Jackson was known for never backchecking and Doug Bentley was known as one of the best two-way players of his era. (Bentley was the back-checker of his line).
Think Ovechkin-lite for Jackson. Meaning prime hard hitting, hard driving Ovechkin. (I've wanted to find a place to say this, so thanks for giving me a chance.
I am mixing up Jackson and Bentley then. Must've combined their strengths and weaknesses and stuck them in the middle of the list.
Looking at Blake again, he should be higher, definitely.
Moore, Denneny, Hull all very good. Only had Kurri ahead (though wasn't sure on that either). All pretty interchangeable at the top of the list it seems to me.
Peak and Prime are 2 different things. His peak was 3 years. His prime was around 10. Prime doesn't have to be at the same level as Peak, otherwise that would still be peak. A player usually has 4 stages. Peak, Prime, useful player, useless player/garbage time (ie. last couple years of Kurri's career).
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I am mixing up Jackson and Bentley then. Must've combined their strengths and weaknesses and stuck them in the middle of the list.
Makes sense, though in that case, I think you are underrating Bentley a tad. He was a small player, so I doubt he was very gritty, and his playoff record is basically "incomplete," but he seems to have been an excellent backchecker.
I still think you're overrating Hull to have his playoff record on the same level as Moore, Denneny, or Blake.
Okay. It just seemed strange to me to rate Hull so high for quality and also high for length. Made me think they were measuring the same thing. It makes sense when you explain it.
Now you are cherry picking.
Hull is 7th all-time in playoff scoring. Only Jagr has more points among non-Oiler players.
I know that's a raw stat, but considering his career overlapped playoff greats like Fedorov, Sakic, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Modano, Trottier, Bourque, Shanahan, etc that is pretty impressive.
Hull lead the entire NHL in playoff scoring in 2000. There's no getting around that. The Devils won the cup, but Hull was the leading scorer.
He was a key contributor on both of his Stanley Cup wins, even if he wasn't the best player on the team. He scored two game winning goals in both the 1999 and the 2002 run.
I'm not saying Hull was Jean Beliveau, but he definitely brought it during playoff time.
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Actually, I was responding to the argument presented. He was making a big deal out of Hull leading his team in scoring when it lost in the first or second round of a 26-30 team league. I was pointing out that isn't all that meaningful. I tend to focus on the parts of arguments I disagree with.
Still not as good as Denneny, Blake, or Moore, especially when you consider Blake and Moore's all-round games.
Was there ever a point in his career when anyone considered Hull as one of the best playoff performers in the league? Because the guys he is being compared to were (at least Kurri, Blake, and Moore... hard to tell with Denneny, but the stats are sure there).
Being "average" out of this group of 11 candidates is still pretty damn good, all things considered.
