Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Wingers)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think that given the small number of teams in the NHL and that Denney was often the 3, 4,5th best assist guy on a team that got a much higher % of assists than the other teams in the NHL and the small numbers of assists here that it is really hard to say anything of definitive significance to Denney and his play making abilities..

Do you have proof for your claims that Ottawa gave out more assists than other teams? Two of us asked you for evidence earlier in this thread, and you never provided any.

Edit: OKay, I see MXD posted the table in post 131 and it's kind of true. But I don't know if Ottawa gave out a significantly higher number of assists per goal. The numbers don't look THAT different.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Key is the ability to step up in the playoffs when other key players were injured or checked. Moore showed this ability in 1954 and 1959. Blake did likewise. Others did not.

I think Moore was a great payoff performer, don't get me wrong. He just had a ton of competition on the late 50s dynasty, IMO, the strongest team ever put together.

 

[unknown33]

Another reminder

seven-year peak goal-scorers:

Rank|Player|Goals
1 | Bobby Hull | 70.7
2 | Maurice Richard | 67.5
3 | Gordie Howe | 66
4 | Phil Esposito | 62.4
5 | Wayne Gretzky | 59.4
6 | Brett Hull | 56.9
7 | Charlie Conacher | 55.3
8 | Mario Lemieux | 54.9
9 | Jean Beliveau | 54.7
10 | Alex Ovechkin | 54.6
11 | Bill Cook | 53.2
12 | Mike Bossy | 53
13 | Bernie Geoffrion | 51.5
14 | Frank Mahovlich | 50.9
15 | Pavel Bure | 50.8
16 | Nels Stewart | 50.8
17 | Jaromir Jagr | 50.5
18 | Stan Mikita | 50.2
19 | Roy Conacher | 49.8
20 | Howie Morenz | 48.8
21 | Teemu Selanne | 48.7
22 | Ted Lindsay | 48.5
23 | Guy Lafleur | 47.6
24 | Peter Bondra | 47.5
25 | Marcel Dionne | 47.3
26 | Steve Yzerman | 47.2
27 | Gordie Drillon | 47.2
28 | Norm Ullman | 46.8
29 | Jarome Iginla | 46.7
30 | Ilya Kovalchuk | 46.7
31 | Bryan Hextall | 46.7
32 | Busher Jackson | 46
33 | Marty Barry | 46
34 | Jari Kurri | 45.7
35 | John LeClair | 45.6
36 | Luc Robitaille | 44.8
37 | Sweeney Schriner | 44.6
38 | Andy Bathgate | 44.3
39 | Joe Sakic | 44
40 | Cecil Dillon | 43.9
41 | Keith Tkachuk | 43.6
42 | Camille Henry | 43.4
43 | Michel Goulet | 43.3
44 | John Bucyk | 43
45 | Dickie Moore | 43
46 | Rick Martin | 42.9
47 | Brendan Shanahan | 42.7
48 | Max Bentley | 42.5
49 | Toe Blake | 42.5
50 | Dany Heatley | 42.3
51 | Mike Gartner | 41.7
52 | Syl Apps Sr | 41.7
53 | Yvan Cournoyer | 41.7
54 | Aurel Joliat | 41.4
55 | Pat LaFontaine | 41.1
56 | Marian Hossa | 41.1
57 | Syd Howe | 41.1
58 | Cam Neely | 41
59 | Lorne Carr | 41
60 | Markus Naslund | 40.9
61 | Herb Cain | 40.8
62 | Kenny Wharram | 40.7
63 | Doug Bentley | 40.6

 

[unknown33]

I think it's clear his margins would have been much less without Adam Oates. But yes, even with Oates, he had a brilliant single season as a goal scorer.

It's still better than everything Iginla did. Also his other two Rockets are more impressive than Iginla sharing one with Kovalchuk/Nash and winning against Bill Guerin, Glenn Murray and Mats Sundin.


Despite whatever reputation Hull might have he was also extremely influential in international tournaments.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Another reminder

You're using a formula that has never been vetted. VsX was never created with the intention to apply it to goal scoring, just point scoring. At first glance, the formula you are using looks awfully hard on anyone who played in the last 20 years. I could be wrong - I honestly don't know how good it is.

It's still better than everything Iginla did. Also his other two Rockets are more impressive than Iginla sharing one with Kovalchuk/Nash and winning against Bill Guerin, Glenn Murray and Mats Sundin.

I agree that Hull's top 3 goal scoring seasons are awfully impressive, Adam Oates or not.

I think the numbers show that even without Oates, Hull likely leads the league in goals those 3 years but by smaller margins.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It's still better than everything Iginla did. Also his other two Rockets are more impressive than Iginla sharing one with Kovalchuk/Nash and winning against Bill Guerin, Glenn Murray and Mats Sundin.


Despite whatever reputation Hull might have he was also extremely influential in international tournaments.

I really don't think there is an argument for Ignla being a better goal scorer than Hull.

But there certainly is one for him being a better player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I really don't think there is an argument for Ignla being a better goal scorer than Hull.

But there certainly is one for him being a better player.

Yes, this is the point I was trying (and perhaps failing) to make.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Denneny led the league in assists twice. Also finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th in other seasons. How is Hull in any way comparable as a playmaker, regardless of era and method of counting?

the small number of actuall asssits given out in the NHL, with a very small number of teams as well distorts the picture a bit ehre not to mention the higher % of assists being given out on Ottawas goals over that time period.

And all of that is before roughly half the Canadian talent playing out west at teh time

Let's look at in another way though here his place among team mates

1917-18 10 (1st in the league tied with 2 others, first on the team, 3 other of his team mates had 8 assists, including Nighbour who had 8 in 10 GP)

1918-19 4 (good for 4th on the team)

1919-1920 6 (tied for 5th but basically 6th on his team other guy ahd 6 assists in 3 less GP)

1920-21 5 (4th on the team 15,10,8, then his 5)

1921-22 12 (2nd on his team 15,12,12,11,10 5 players on team with over 10)

1923-24 11 (2nd on the team 13,11,9,9)

1924-25 2 (7th on the team)

1925-26 15 (1st on the team and led league)

192627 6 (tied for 3rd on the team effectively 4th

that's how wacky and weird the assists and "playmaking assertion" is in such a small league with few assists and not many teams and assists not being recorded as they are today.

Really he went from 7th on his team (smaller rosters too) to leading the league in assists the next season?

Was Hull ever 7th in assists or worst in any season in his prime on his own teams?

I don't even need to look it up as it's highly improbable.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Do you have proof for your claims that Ottawa gave out more assists than other teams? Two of us asked you for evidence earlier in this thread, and you never provided any.

You also said something similar about Toronto in the 30s during the centers project and never backed it up with any evidence.

Edit: OKay, I see MXD posted the table in post 131 and it's kind of true. But I don't know if Ottawa gave out a significantly higher number of assists per goal. The numbers don't look THAT different.

I didn't post due to MXD posting and yes Ottawa was getting a higher % of assists on their goals over Denneny's career it's in the 2nd column on the chart he provided ie Sens had 51 assists in 1918 and .5 assists per goals while the other 2 teams had.36 and .48 (the numbers are a bit higher some years after that) .

And I actually did break down the numbers in the centers project for Joe Primeau on that count.

 

[unknown33]

Yes, this is the point I was trying (and perhaps failing) to make.

Alright, what you've said about Iginla's and Hull's goalscoring didn't sound like that.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

the small number of actuall asssits given out in the NHL, with a very small number of teams as well distorts the picture a bit ehre not to mention the higher % of assists being given out on Ottawas goals over that time period.

And all of that is before roughly half the Canadian talent playing out west at teh time

Let's look at in another way though here his place among team mates

1917-18 10 (1st in the league tied with 2 others, first on the team, 3 other of his team mates had 8 assists, including Nighbour who had 8 in 10 GP)

1918-19 4 (good for 4th on the team)

1919-1920 6 (tied for 5th but basically 6th on his team other guy ahd 6 assists in 3 less GP)

1920-21 5 (4th on the team 15,10,8, then his 5)

1921-22 12 (2nd on his team 15,12,12,11,10 5 players on team with over 10)

1923-24 11 (2nd on the team 13,11,9,9)

1924-25 2 (7th on the team)

1925-26 15 (1st on the team and led league)

192627 6 (tied for 3rd on the team effectively 4th

that's how wacky and weird the assists and "playmaking assertion" is in such a small league with few assists and not many teams and assists not being recorded as they are today.

Really he went from 7th on his team (smaller rosters too) to leading the league in assists the next season?

Was Hull ever 7th in assists or worst in any season in his prime on his own teams?

I don't even need to look it up as it's highly improbable.

First off, I think this is definitely a worthwhile enterprise and serves as a warning not to look too much into single-season assist totals back when they didn't hand out that many assists.

I'm thinking that seventies' estimate that Denneny is tied with Bentley as the second best playmaker this round behind St. Louis was probably overly optimistic - I believe that it relies on small samples from his best short seasons in the same way that your "he was 7th on his own team" does the same in the opposite direction.

But you can look at a larger sample size of his entire career like seventieslord did elsewhere. If you look at a larger sample - basically Denneny's entire career - it's extremely hard to make the case that he is as "bad" a playmaker as Hull. Putting "bad" in quotes because Hull was a bad playmaker compared to the rest of the candidates, not necessarily your average NHL player.

 

[MXD]

Do you have proof for your claims that Ottawa gave out more assists than other teams? Two of us asked you for evidence earlier in this thread, and you never provided any.

Edit: OKay, I see MXD posted the table in post 131 and it's kind of true. But I don't know if Ottawa gave out a significantly higher number of assists per goal. The numbers don't look THAT different.

Ratio on the right is assist per goals.

Its high, but not as high as Montreal Habs are low.

 

[Hardyvan123]

First off, I think this is definitely a worthwhile enterprise and serves as a warning not to look too much into single-season assist totals back when they didn't hand out that many assists.

I'm thinking that seventies' estimate that Denneny is tied with Bentley as the second best playmaker this round behind St. Louis was probably overly optimistic - I believe that it relies on small samples from his best short seasons in the same way that your "he was 7th on his own team" does the same in the opposite direction.

But you can look at a larger sample size of his entire career like seventieslord did elsewhere. If you look at a larger sample - basically Denneny's entire career - it's extremely hard to make the case that he is as "bad" a playmaker as Hull. Putting "bad" in quotes because Hull was a bad playmaker compared to the rest of the candidates, not necessarily your average NHL player.

Hull is probably the "worst play maker" this round but he is also obviously the best goal scorer too.

As for Denneny he is probably the 2nd "worst play maker" this round, Tarheelhckey had it right IMO when he puts these 2 in the same general category of player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hull is probably the "worst play maker" this round but he is also obviously the best goal scorer too.

As for Denneny he is probably the 2nd "worst play maker" this round, Tarheelhckey had it right IMO when he puts these 2 in the same general category of player.

As much as I've been pumping Iginla's tires this round and think he'll likely end up in my top 4, I think you'd be hard pressed to make the case that he's a better playmaker than Denneny. Likewise, I'm not sure Jackson, Kurri, or Mikhailov were anything special in the way of playmaking, at least for this round.

Top 10 Assists

St Louis: 1, 1, 2, 5, 7, 9, 9
Bentley: 1, 1, 4, 5, 5, 9, 9*
Moore: 1, 2, 5, 6
Blake: 3*, 7, 7, 8, 8, 9, 10
Jackson: 3, 9, 10
Kurri: 9, 9, 10
Iginla: 10
Hull: NONE

Joliat: 5, 5, 5, 7 (plus pre-consolidation finishes of 3, 6, 7, 10)
Denneny: (All pre-consolidation: 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 8)

Top 20 assists finishes

St. Louis: 1, 1, 2, 5, 7, 9, 11, 17, 19
Kurri: 9*, 9*, 10*, 13*, 13*, 15, 17
Iginla: 10, 17, 18
Hull: 11, 19

 

[MXD]

I think Moore was a great payoff performer, don't get me wrong. He just had a ton of competition on the late 50s dynasty, IMO, the strongest team ever put together.

M. Richard, Beliveau, Geoffrion and Moore all had a huge playoff year and all were in the same range for their non-huge year.

Beliveau missed a good chunk of one playoff. Maurice also missed one good chunk. Which year was it ? Moore's huge season.

Geoffrion had better cumulative numbers.
Harvey was playing defense
Moore was better than his numbers (versus Geoffrion).

You don't go wrong with any of these three (no specifics on how Harvey played in 59. One can presume - not that well if that was anything like his regular season.

But knowing what I'd know, I'm going with Moore

 

[Hardyvan123]

pros and cons on players resume for this round

some taken from the last round with some additional comments

Toe Blake

Pros:solid consistent career, good 2 way and intangible player

cons: decent but not great playoffs, low VsX (for this stage of voting)

Cy Denneny

Pros: great goal scorer and VsX score, good playoff record

cons: not considered very well by hockey people in the day, team mates were considered as better players, inducted into HHOF earlier ect.. Vs
X scores might be altered if there was a fully integrated NHL in the late teens and 20's too

Brett Hull

Pros: Great peak, outstanding sniper, good VsX considering the context (great goal VsX comapred to points), good playoff resume, aged very well.

Cons: one dimensional, played with some great play makers and good teams, looks very much like Denney in terms of overall value

Aurele Joliat

Pros: High peak, long consistent career in that he was very good for a long time

Cons: Peak was in spurts, decent not great playoffs

Jari Kurri

Pros: good 2 way performer, great in playoffs

cons: the Wayne factor (like Lindsay to Howe) didn't age very well at all



Boris Mikhailov

pros: long excellent career, very consistent

cons: played much of his career internationally in the weak 60's early 70's, not the star player on his team brings questions as to were to place him here.

Dickie Moore

Pros: great peak, great playoffs

cons: career value is low (for this round) even his peak is short


Doug Bentley

Pros: Great VsX, best top 10 point finishes of any player left, good 2 way game (although it's impact is questionable, much like Kurri their teams were what they were), VsX bumped by war years a bit

Cons: wasn't anything special or even really average until age 26
VsX bumped by war years a bit
outside of one great playoff year extrmely poor playoff resume, not great overall

Jarome Iginla

Pros: Very good to excellent goal scorer
Excellent and consistent career
great intangibles, ie boardwork, physical presence
good playoff career including leading the NHL in goal one year

cons: not a huge star, much like Mahovolich last round
not a great play maker, closer to Hull/Denneny than MSL or Moore and Bentley in this metric

Busher Jackson

Pros: good solid goal scorer and player

Cons: aside from his 5 good years which came over a 6 year period the 5th year being meh, nothing great about his career offensively.
Not a very strong playoff resume, might be weaker than Bentley's

Martin St. Louis

Pro: Very good VsX and 10 year prime
Has a Hart and 2 Art Ross trophies (2nd one due to Crosby injury and probably Stamkos)
-decent playoff career and a balanced offensive player

cons: outside of his prime was a 3rd line player
intangibles not bad not great
peak was inconsistent one great year then a so so year

just some general thoughts, things are getting much harder to separate each round in.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You really need to edit the part about Mikhailov. I don't necesarily agree with the rest 100%, but the late 60s/early 70s thing is incredibly misleading

 

[Hardyvan123]

As much as I've been pumping Iginla's tires this round and think he'll likely end up in my top 4, I think you'd be hard pressed to make the case that he's a better playmaker than Denneny. Likewise, I'm not sure Jackson, Kurri, or Mikhailov were anything special in the way of playmaking, at least for this round.

Yes Iggy is a tough call, most years his team mates and line mates were so bad it's even amazing he has any top 10 finishes in assists and it's further influenced by a 30 team league.

That being said I think the 3 best goal scorers this round are Hull, Iggy, Denneny and all 3 are going in my top 4 this round probably with Kurri or Mikhailov or maybe Blake.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yes, this is the point I was trying (and perhaps failing) to make.

Glad to be of assistance.

 

[seventieslord]

For the record, when I say that Denneny is the 2nd-3rd best playmaker here, that is based on that meta-analysis, not simplistic "ranking counting".

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

the small number of actuall asssits given out in the NHL, with a very small number of teams as well distorts the picture a bit ehre not to mention the higher % of assists being given out on Ottawas goals over that time period.

And all of that is before roughly half the Canadian talent playing out west at teh time

Let's look at in another way though here his place among team mates

1917-18 10 (1st in the league tied with 2 others, first on the team, 3 other of his team mates had 8 assists, including Nighbour who had 8 in 10 GP)

1918-19 4 (good for 4th on the team)

1919-1920 6 (tied for 5th but basically 6th on his team other guy ahd 6 assists in 3 less GP)

1920-21 5 (4th on the team 15,10,8, then his 5)

1921-22 12 (2nd on his team 15,12,12,11,10 5 players on team with over 10)

1923-24 11 (2nd on the team 13,11,9,9)

1924-25 2 (7th on the team)

1925-26 15 (1st on the team and led league)

192627 6 (tied for 3rd on the team effectively 4th

that's how wacky and weird the assists and "playmaking assertion" is in such a small league with few assists and not many teams and assists not being recorded as they are today.

Really he went from 7th on his team (smaller rosters too) to leading the league in assists the next season?

Was Hull ever 7th in assists or worst in any season in his prime on his own teams?

I don't even need to look it up as it's highly improbable.

1998-99 for Dallas. And the year Denneny was 7th on his team in scoring he led the league in goals & points.

Though I'm not sure what this assist trivia has to do with anything other than the usual make a case out of nothing.

And by the way, you got your totals and years screwed up somewhere along the line.

 

[Hardyvan123]

You really need to edit the part about Mikhailov. I don't necesarily agree with thr rest 100%, but the late 60s/early 70s thing is incredibly misleading

Okay there should be a caveat of sorts but there was no hitting and little competition in international play until the Czechs stepped up and Russia finally played the NHL in 72.

His star shinned a little brighter with the injuries to Valeri Kharlamov and the slight lull in elite forwards until the green unit came around but he would be a lot easier to place if Russians had been allowed to play in the NHL before the early 90's.

It's hard to place in part this round but he is leaning closer to 4th or 5th than anywhere else for me (even though I'm trying really hard to ignore the fact that there is another Russian winger not up yet clearly better than him IMO.

 

[Hardyvan123]

1998-99 for Dallas. And the year Denneny was 7th on his team in scoring he led the league in goals & points.

Though I'm not sure what this assist trivia has to do with anything other than the usual make a case out of nothing.

And by the way, you got your totals and years screwed up somewhere along the line.

My apologies if I made a mistake somewhere but one can see the distortion with the small number of assists and Cy was playing relatively full seasons back then, hull in 99 played in 60 games, his pace easily gets him into 6th place past Niewendyk right? (not to mention how Dmen in modern times can be leaders on teams in assists much more easily than in Denneny's time)

The assertion put forward earlier that Denneny was somehow near the top this round of play makers simply doesn't pass the smell test here.

 

[unknown33]

Martin St. Louis

Pro: Very good VsX and 10 year prime


cons: outside of his prime was a 3rd line player

Isn't 10 years like nearly a full career for most players?

Jarome Iginla
cons: not a huge star, much like Mahovolich last round

Out of all players available this round you say that about Iginla?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Rebound Assists

First off, I think this is definitely a worthwhile enterprise and serves as a warning not to look too much into single-season assist totals back when they didn't hand out that many assists.

I'm thinking that seventies' estimate that Denneny is tied with Bentley as the second best playmaker this round behind St. Louis was probably overly optimistic - I believe that it relies on small samples from his best short seasons in the same way that your "he was 7th on his own team" does the same in the opposite direction.

But you can look at a larger sample size of his entire career like seventieslord did elsewhere. If you look at a larger sample - basically Denneny's entire career - it's extremely hard to make the case that he is as "bad" a playmaker as Hull. Putting "bad" in quotes because Hull was a bad playmaker compared to the rest of the candidates, not necessarily your average NHL player.

Denneny did not benefit from rebound assists - not recognized until the thirties. Brett Hull did benefit from rebound assists.