Roster Thread (2023-2024 Season)

[Chainshot]

Fun piece on Florida's structure that I think is worth the read. The note on their defense really sticks out, especially with so many complaining about the Sabres Defense makeup:



The talent on the blueline here should be good enough, but it's just too damn young. I continue to believe the biggest issues with the team are lack of experience, lack of strength due to youth, and coaching. Regarding the coaching, I'm not even sure if Granato is an issue, but the assistants definitely need an upgrade, I think we've seen enough of these guys by now.

Excellent article. Many thanks.

 

[Tijuana Donkey Show]

I don't think this core can win without a couple more forwards who play a pro-style game and another top 4 defenseman who isn't mesmerized by the puck.

Sorry, what I mean is I believe that there is enough skill on the roster to build around. I don’t like the current 23.

What I don’t want is the vicious cycle with our franchise where we back a GM who convinced us that “player x” sucks so we move on for terrible return.

I don’t trust Adams with any roster, especially this one.

We are in desperate need of two more Greenways, a couple of Mitts, and maybe even a Tuch.

 

[Hasek]

Skinner - Thompson - Okposo
Our top line has two losers. This is strictly from a hockey sense. These are good players and are very likeable, but all they know is losing. One has never been to the playoffs and the other, it's been almost 10 years.
These are the guys that set the energy and direction that the new guys will follow and adhere to. A direction filled with losing.

Wish Skinner would retire a Sabre, despite the fact that the team needs winners.

 

[Beerz]

Skinner - Thompson - Okposo
Our top line has two losers. This is strictly from a hockey sense. These are good players and are very likeable, but all they know is losing. One has never been to the playoffs and the other, it's been almost 10 years.
These are the guys that set the energy and direction that the new guys will follow and adhere to. A direction filled with losing.

Wish Skinner would retire a Sabre, despite the fact that the team needs winners.

How is Thompson any different?

 

[Archie Lee]

Skinner - Thompson - Okposo
Our top line has two losers. This is strictly from a hockey sense. These are good players and are very likeable, but all they know is losing. One has never been to the playoffs and the other, it's been almost 10 years.
These are the guys that set the energy and direction that the new guys will follow and adhere to. A direction filled with losing.

Wish Skinner would retire a Sabre, despite the fact that the team needs winners.

It’s not our top line. It’s the line that gets arbitrarily listed first because Thompson is the centre and he had 47 goals and 94 points last year.

 

[Hasek]

How is Thompson any different?

He is still young and not fully infected with the losing culture. There is still hope.
Plus I remember how much crap he got for being involved in a trade and so I have a soft spot for him.

 

[Tatanka]

Thompson is 26 yo and will be 27 to start the next season. He is closer to the end of his hockey career than he is to its beginning. We need to stop thinking he is young in development sense. He is what he is at this point, good or bad.

 

[sabremike]

Every time I hear people denounce fans from non-traditional markets as ignorant know nothings who don't deserve teams compared to savvy fans in traditional markets who know what they are talking about I click on this thread and laugh my ass off.

 

[Fezzy126]

Thompson is 26 yo and will be 27 to start the next season. He is closer to the end of his hockey career than he is to its beginning. We need to stop thinking he is young in development sense. He is what he is at this point, good or bad.

Every player ages and develops differently. This is especially true of those that have exhibited elite scoring production early in their careers. For example, I'd gladly take the version of Yzerman from his 28-36 year old seasons over his carefree scoring 18-25 year old seasons.

We have no idea if Tage will be able to develop into a better, more impactful hockey player as opposed to just a dangerous offensive weapon.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

I get that. I'm just curious why people are so mad about Benson not being on the PP as if he has produced on the PP. He's played the bumper position. He's found himself on the half wall. He has not produced a single PP point. He's not found that dynamic aspect of his game to be effective on the PP like he showed in Juniors, and at 5 on 5 he hasn't done so either. He plays a responsible game, which is commendable, but he's not been a player that has produced enough to earn that spot. His finish in his game is not good enough, and I get why the coaches didn't want him on the PP.

sabres pp has been absolute shit? I mean thats the sabres for the last 10+ years, it has sucked so hard that there are no options that are obvious, everything is buried is 7 layers of shit. Im confused how you can look at the on ice performance and be confused why people want anything different. We're once again back to the "can risto play wing" levels of f*** this

its basically just another microcosm of how these boards have descended to absolute shit over the last decade

the team is so f***ing broken that everything is shit, the few rare instances of not wrong are buried under the 5 other players on the ice who are wrong, playing a system that isn't working, with a coach seemingly oblivious to the problem and absolutely incapable of fixing them

there's nothing rational to say about this team, you cant draw takeaways, you cant use analytics, the team is such a sucking cesspool that they break the math

to quote american president "people dont drink sand because theyre thirsty, they drink the sand because they dont know the difference"

 

[Beerz]

He is still young and not fully infected with the losing culture. There is still hope.
Plus I remember how much crap he got for being involved in a trade and so I have a soft spot for him.

I mean all the strengths and weaknesses of Jeff Skinner are the same as Tage Thompson

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

I don't think this core can win without a couple more forwards who play a pro-style game and another top 4 defenseman who isn't mesmerized by the puck.

Are we to blame Dahlin, Power, Sammy, and Joki (+ Cozens) for the culture of defensive zone giveaways? They all seem to giveaway pucks constantly.

The giveaways are what Granato blamed for the bad hockey, saying they’re actually good defensively but just can’t stop coughing up the puck. I’ve noticed that defenseman giving up the puck in dangerous ways the most.

Do we solely blame the defenseman when they blatantly give away the puck in front of their own goalie, or are they not getting enough support from the forwards, and they’re just made to look awful as a result? Or is this solely a coaching thing? Does the system make it hard to NOT giveaway the puck?

I’m still not sure I’ve heard a great diagnosis for why this team gives away the puck so much. Most seem to think a coaching change will fix it but I'm not sure I buy that yet.

 

[Chainshot]

I get that. I'm just curious why people are so mad about Benson not being on the PP as if he has produced on the PP. He's played the bumper position. He's found himself on the half wall. He has not produced a single PP point. He's not found that dynamic aspect of his game to be effective on the PP like he showed in Juniors, and at 5 on 5 he hasn't done so either. He plays a responsible game, which is commendable, but he's not been a player that has produced enough to earn that spot. His finish in his game is not good enough, and I get why the coaches didn't want him on the PP.

Perhaps look at the totality of the Sabres powerplay dysfunction? The entire 2nd unit has produced almost nothing for the entire season. Peterka? Three PP points. Quinn? 2. Olofsson? 2 (both assists). Benson? 2. The entire unit - first and second - are some of the worst producing in the entire league.

It's his decision making to generate others shots when in that role that was good, his ability to make passes to either side and move the puck quickly - things not common for this PP unit for any of them, particularly the likes of Skinner when he's in the bumper role on PP1.

That's why - people are looking for solutions with the parts they have. None of them are producing.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

Skinner - Thompson - Okposo
Our top line has two losers. This is strictly from a hockey sense. These are good players and are very likeable, but all they know is losing. One has never been to the playoffs and the other, it's been almost 10 years.
These are the guys that set the energy and direction that the new guys will follow and adhere to. A direction filled with losing.

Wish Skinner would retire a Sabre, despite the fact that the team needs winners.

Top line with Okposo's name on it is very funny

 

[57special]

Trenin, Carrier, Duhaime all come as guys with younger legs who are apt to play a pro game. It would be cool if they put an emphasis on having some guys who can PK and provide team-wide energy into their depth folks instead of more people who are small or who play small.

Duhaime(UFA) would be a decent pickup. His point totals are tiny, which will hurt his value, but that's partly because of his usage on the Wild. He actually has decent hands. VG speed, big, physical, can fight a bit(middleweight). More consistent than Greenway. Good defensively, good on the PK. I think if he's offered 4 x 2.25M, or something like that, he'd jump on it, as MN have one more year of cap hell, and probably won't be able to match.
He's not the fighter or leader that Foligno is, and hasn't come close to scoring the same amount of points, but he's got good character, and I suspect that he has more offensive upside if given a shot. He's got the tools.

The other two would also be good choices, but I suspect that they will be re-signed by their teams at anything like the same numbers. MN's cap situation make them vulnerable to being poached.

Personally, and I was a Mittelstadt guy for a long time, I think it's a bad idea to reward a guy with a big, long term contract after only one good year. Don't repeat the mistake made with Skinner... hopefully not with Thompson and Cozens. Those guys, for better or worse, have to be your top 2 C's going forward. You can't be spending 7M on a #3C, especially one who has little to no track record of production, and zero physicality(on a team like the Sabres). Far better to spend that money, or part of it, on a solid RHD.

 

[HOOats]

Duhaime(UFA) would be a decent pickup. His point totals are tiny, which will hurt his value, but that's partly because of his usage on the Wild. He actually has decent hands. VG speed, big, physical, can fight a bit(middleweight). More consistent than Greenway. Good defensively, good on the PK. I think if he's offered 4 x 2.25M, or something like that, he'd jump on it, as MN have one more year of cap hell, and probably won't be able to match.
He's not the fighter or leader that Foligno is, and hasn't come close to scoring the same amount of points, but he's got good character, and I suspect that he has more offensive upside if given a shot. He's got the tools.

The other two would also be good choices, but I suspect that they will be re-signed by their teams at anything like the same numbers. MN's cap situation make them vulnerable to being poached.

Personally, and I was a Mittelstadt guy for a long time, I think it's a bad idea to reward a guy with a big, long term contract after only one good year. Don't repeat the mistake made with Skinner... hopefully not with Thompson and Cozens. Those guys, for better or worse, have to be your top 2 C's going forward. You can't be spending 7M on a #3C, especially one who has little to no track record of production, and zero physicality(on a team like the Sabres). Far better to spend that money, or part of it, on a solid RHD.

Love the Duhaime take, couldn't disagree more with the Mitts.

Plenty of teams spend $21M on their top three centers, just spread 12/6/3 instead of 7/7/7. Mitts is closer to our 1C than our 3C these days. He passes the eye and the analytics tests. Our lines would be totally lost if not for him. If the other two guys push him back down the depth chart, then we're in great shape.

$21M for 72, 24, 37 could be the best per/$ center spine in the league in 3-5 years (again, if two guys not named Mitts can find their games).

 

[57special]

Trade Power for Zegras(rumoured to be out of favor in ANA). Then get a RHD, or two. Solid pros. It's OK to overpay them, as long as it's short term deals. Trade some of your forward prospects, if necessary. Draft another D in this draft, preferably Dickinson or Silayev, then someone like Emery, or Elick in the 2nd round.

Schneider would be a guy I would target from NYR, but not sure of the cost, and whether they would go for it.

All this is more easily said than done, but KA's needs to earn his paycheck. Sabres need to turn a corner, and start being competitive.

 

[Zman5778]

Personally, and I was a Mittelstadt guy for a long time, I think it's a bad idea to reward a guy with a big, long term contract after only one good year. Don't repeat the mistake made with Skinner... hopefully not with Thompson and Cozens. Those guys, for better or worse, have to be your top 2 C's going forward. You can't be spending 7M on a #3C, especially one who has little to no track record of production, and zero physicality(on a team like the Sabres). Far better to spend that money, or part of it, on a solid RHD.

Expanding on what @HOOats said above me: This isn't "one good year". This is a continuation of his excellent play that started in January of last year. I mean, yeah, it's "only" an 82-ish game sample.......but that's spread out over 2 very different Sabres seasons. To me, that's an indication that this is is true form.

And as far as the "physicality" expect....no, he doesn't hit. BUT.....he's our most consistent forward along the boards and with puck possession after contact (either in the middle of the ice or along the boards). He's not physical in the traditional sense......but there are physical aspects to his game that are very good. If Mitts goes into the boards to battle for a puck, he's the guy on the team I trust more than anyone else to come out of the pile with the puck.

 

[HOOats]

Trade Power for Zegras(rumoured to be out of favor in ANA). Then get a RHD, or two. Solid pros. It's OK to overpay them, as long as it's short term deals. Trade some of your forward prospects, if necessary. Draft another D in this draft, preferably Dickinson or Silayev, then someone like Emery, or Elick in the 2nd round.

Schneider would be a guy I would target from NYR, but not sure of the cost, and whether they would go for it.

All this is more easily said than done, but KA's needs to earn his paycheck. Sabres need to turn a corner, and start being competitive.

Setting aside the fact that Zegras is the exact opposite type of forward this team needs, what would the ++ coming back our way be?

 

[TageGod]

Trade Power for Zegras(rumoured to be out of favor in ANA). Then get a RHD, or two. Solid pros. It's OK to overpay them, as long as it's short term deals. Trade some of your forward prospects, if necessary. Draft another D in this draft, preferably Dickinson or Silayev, then someone like Emery, or Elick in the 2nd round.

Schneider would be a guy I would target from NYR, but not sure of the cost, and whether they would go for it.

All this is more easily said than done, but KA's needs to earn his paycheck. Sabres need to turn a corner, and start being competitive.

#1 overall still has #1 overall value. So if Zegras and a top 4 D come back, plus a plug and play roster player and another first maybe...

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Duhaime(UFA) would be a decent pickup. His point totals are tiny, which will hurt his value, but that's partly because of his usage on the Wild. He actually has decent hands. VG speed, big, physical, can fight a bit(middleweight). More consistent than Greenway. Good defensively, good on the PK. I think if he's offered 4 x 2.25M, or something like that, he'd jump on it, as MN have one more year of cap hell, and probably won't be able to match.
He's not the fighter or leader that Foligno is, and hasn't come close to scoring the same amount of points, but he's got good character, and I suspect that he has more offensive upside if given a shot. He's got the tools.

The other two would also be good choices, but I suspect that they will be re-signed by their teams at anything like the same numbers. MN's cap situation make them vulnerable to being poached.

Personally, and I was a Mittelstadt guy for a long time, I think it's a bad idea to reward a guy with a big, long term contract after only one good year. Don't repeat the mistake made with Skinner... hopefully not with Thompson and Cozens. Those guys, for better or worse, have to be your top 2 C's going forward. You can't be spending 7M on a #3C, especially one who has little to no track record of production, and zero physicality(on a team like the Sabres). Far better to spend that money, or part of it, on a solid RHD.

Lot of good points, but I do strongly believe you can pay a good 3C $7M, so I disagree there.

I don't think Casey really plays like we'd need a 3C to play, so I come to the same conclusion, but Buffalo will not have any expensive wingers, and have their top defensemen locked up long term -- I'd happily pay a good 3C $7M.

 

[Chainshot]

Are we to blame Dahlin, Power, Sammy, and Joki (+ Cozens) for the culture of defensive zone giveaways? They all seem to giveaway pucks constantly.

The giveaways are what Granato blamed for the bad hockey, saying they’re actually good defensively but just can’t stop coughing up the puck. I’ve noticed that defenseman giving up the puck in dangerous ways the most.

Do we solely blame the defenseman when they blatantly give away the puck in front of their own goalie, or are they not getting enough support from the forwards, and they’re just made to look awful as a result? Or is this solely a coaching thing? Does the system make it hard to NOT giveaway the puck?

I’m still not sure I’ve heard a great diagnosis for why this team gives away the puck so much. Most seem to think a coaching change will fix it but I'm not sure I buy that yet.

I would agree that it isn't a singular issue. Breaking it down between where on the ice the giveaway is happening.

In the offensive zone we see a lot of aggressive pinches and players holding the puck a long time when the "right" play would be to cycle it back into a corner so forwards could get back to work rather than either holding the puck while stopped high in the offensive zone while all the forwards are deeper. Now I say "right" because I view what they are doing to be the wrong play yet so many of them (both forwards and defense) seem content with easing into the soft pocket just inside the blueline rather than driving themselves or the puck deeper into the zone that I view this as the coaching staff wanting all of them to try to make some sort of play rather than putting the puck into space for a 50-50 battle lower in the offensive zone or even toward the net. The resulting turnovers lead to a lot of odd-man rush chances against because they have too wide a gap with their partner (who is often standing still too) and no one covering. So I think system-wise, they play pond hockey and it doesn't benefit them in terms of yielding high-danger rush chances. I would put a lot of these on how they are being coached and there are also times when defensemen activate, pinch, and there is no forward even shading remotely to cover the position. Again, could be "just" coaching, though there are some players who just seem to do it naturally like Benson and Greenway so I think it could be personnel. The kids are my biggest whipping boys on this, but so too is the usual Thompson line where sometimes Tuch will cover but when Skinner does it's usually something that makes me say "holy shit, he did the right thing".

And then in the defensive zone there are a couple of factors - first, the forwards blow the zone early and constantly. That stretches out the space between the defensemen and the forward, making it harder to complete a pass for some (Dahlin and Power show a lot of ability to get things stretched up the ice but there are times when Clifton and Johnson have done noticeably well at it too... the rest seems to be a crap shoot and the four mentioned are also likely to turn things over at times), and also leaves them short handed if there is a turnover. I don't know if this is all systemic or not because guys taking an easier (ie. lazier) path back and not holding the zone until control is assured is the sort of lack of professionalism and effort that bothers me in some of these guys. It requires a little bit more energy coming back and a bit more energy to turn up the ice and transition quickly. So there are fewer options for outlets some of the time.

And then there is the nonchalance factor, the guys making a half-assed pass attempt, or having a lack of urgency to move the puck surely and swiftly. Dahlin's had a lot of this so far this year but all of 'em have their moments too. Power had a lot of these too earlier, seems to have worked some of that out of his game. Unforced turnovers just going D to D that then put them under pressure drives me nuts and that is I feel is personnel.

Then there is the amount of puck watching that goes on, how often people drift slowly out of position, their collective brain farts at how to defend on the rush, and the relative lack of physical engagement around their own net... all things that speak to coaching for me. Perhaps too they are player issues, but I don't look at any of these guys and see improvement in terms of awareness (hey, check off shoulder sometimes to see who is creeping in back door there Joki) and the engagement/battle factor is relatively low on all of their internal guys. The folks they just brought in, yes, there is engagement and sometimes it's bad since they're involved in a battle and pucks go in off of them. But holy crap, watching folks stand around while opponents mine for ore under their goalie's glove or pads makes me honestly yell at the the TV like I'm channeling R. L. Ermey in Full Metal Jacket.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Trade Power for Zegras(rumoured to be out of favor in ANA). Then get a RHD, or two. Solid pros. It's OK to overpay them, as long as it's short term deals. Trade some of your forward prospects, if necessary. Draft another D in this draft, preferably Dickinson or Silayev, then someone like Emery, or Elick in the 2nd round.

Schneider would be a guy I would target from NYR, but not sure of the cost, and whether they would go for it.

All this is more easily said than done, but KA's needs to earn his paycheck. Sabres need to turn a corner, and start being competitive.

Thanks for posting, love it when smart posters from other teams come over to talk.

I've began leaning toward trading Power, simply because having 2 #1 D is a luxury and I'm not sure if it's necessary. Particularly when they need power play time and do a lot of the same things. I'd rather have the one star defender and then a bunch of tough, mobile defenders.

I don't have the angst about trading for a forward like Zegras, who plays a similar style to what the Sabres already have. I've always thought that Cozens would be better on the wing, where he can use his speed to force plays and drive on defenders. I also think he'd be able to use more of his power game.

 

[Djp]

In terms of the defense side of things, what sort of age would Buffalo be hoping for? Would a player like Manson be of interest or is he too old at 32?

nobody over 30

I think Colorado would be excited for any of the three, but if they had the option it would probably go Thompson, Mitts, Cozen.


Colorado would likely be willing to move any of Lehkonen, Colton, Wood, LOC, Byram, Manson, Girard or any draft picks/most if not all prospects.

I have no interest in available /spare part colorado players in getting one of thompson, Cozens, Mitts.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

I would agree that it isn't a singular issue. Breaking it down between where on the ice the giveaway is happening.

In the offensive zone we see a lot of aggressive pinches and players holding the puck a long time when the "right" play would be to cycle it back into a corner so forwards could get back to work rather than either holding the puck while stopped high in the offensive zone while all the forwards are deeper. Now I say "right" because I view what they are doing to be the wrong play yet so many of them (both forwards and defense) seem content with easing into the soft pocket just inside the blueline rather than driving themselves or the puck deeper into the zone that I view this as the coaching staff wanting all of them to try to make some sort of play rather than putting the puck into space for a 50-50 battle lower in the offensive zone or even toward the net. The resulting turnovers lead to a lot of odd-man rush chances against because they have too wide a gap with their partner (who is often standing still too) and no one covering. So I think system-wise, they play pond hockey and it doesn't benefit them in terms of yielding high-danger rush chances. I would put a lot of these on how they are being coached and there are also times when defensemen activate, pinch, and there is no forward even shading remotely to cover the position. Again, could be "just" coaching, though there are some players who just seem to do it naturally like Benson and Greenway so I think it could be personnel. The kids are my biggest whipping boys on this, but so too is the usual Thompson line where sometimes Tuch will cover but when Skinner does it's usually something that makes me say "holy shit, he did the right thing".

And then in the defensive zone there are a couple of factors - first, the forwards blow the zone early and constantly. That stretches out the space between the defensemen and the forward, making it harder to complete a pass for some (Dahlin and Power show a lot of ability to get things stretched up the ice but there are times when Clifton and Johnson have done noticeably well at it too... the rest seems to be a crap shoot and the four mentioned are also likely to turn things over at times), and also leaves them short handed if there is a turnover. I don't know if this is all systemic or not because guys taking an easier (ie. lazier) path back and not holding the zone until control is assured is the sort of lack of professionalism and effort that bothers me in some of these guys. It requires a little bit more energy coming back and a bit more energy to turn up the ice and transition quickly. So there are fewer options for outlets some of the time.

And then there is the nonchalance factor, the guys making a half-assed pass attempt, or having a lack of urgency to move the puck surely and swiftly. Dahlin's had a lot of this so far this year but all of 'em have their moments too. Power had a lot of these too earlier, seems to have worked some of that out of his game. Unforced turnovers just going D to D that then put them under pressure drives me nuts and that is I feel is personnel.

Then there is the amount of puck watching that goes on, how often people drift slowly out of position, their collective brain farts at how to defend on the rush, and the relative lack of physical engagement around their own net... all things that speak to coaching for me. Perhaps too they are player issues, but I don't look at any of these guys and see improvement in terms of awareness (hey, check off shoulder sometimes to see who is creeping in back door there Joki) and the engagement/battle factor is relatively low on all of their internal guys. The folks they just brought in, yes, there is engagement and sometimes it's bad since they're involved in a battle and pucks go in off of them. But holy crap, watching folks stand around while opponents mine for ore under their goalie's glove or pads makes me honestly yell at the the TV like I'm channeling R. L. Ermey in Full Metal Jacket.

This makes a lot of sense and puts together a lot of details to tell a fuller, more complete story than I had in my head. Your paragraph about the offensive zone issues should really be pinned since it's basically what happens every time you watch a Sabres game, and I suspected that the coach was asking them to do that too.

Remember when we all complained about how Kruger did the opposite? That didn't work either, which makes me think it's the personnel. They give away the puck when they try to make a play because they can't provide adequate support, and they give the puck away when they dump it in because they can't win the battle.

(You really should have a podcast or youtube show or something...you're better than most of them and the main reason I come here.)

I think you're right about the blame distribution here. I really don't think a new coach changes a whole lot, except a new one might not tolerate the lazy play as much (I'm not sure Granato actually "tolerates" it, but that's the popular narrative).

Offensive zone blame: Mostly forwards (can't win dump in battles, can't make a play under pressure, can't maintain possession, can't cover for pinching dmen), some coaching, some roster construction (we're allowed tough guys)

Defensive zone blame: Mostly both forwards (blowing the zone, slow to come back) and defensemen (bad/lazy passes). Significant roster issues (need more Dmen who are willing to punish guys whacking at pucks in front of the net). Some coaching.

Special teams: Granato has always been very slow to make adjustments when things aren't working, but I've heard reasonable reasons for why he doesn't like to make changes often. Not sure I disagree with his logic, but the results are unacceptable. I'll blame him, but the forward, for instance, sure look like they're trying to blow the zone while on a damn PK sometimes, which is confusing.

Goaltending: players are all fine, the only problem is the GM and his inability to asses, and inability to make a decision until it's way too late. I don't blame the coaches either.

Compete: Players. Maybe you can blame the coach for not yelling enough but that stops working pretty quick anyway, if it ever works to begin with.


It's mostly on the forwards imo.