Roster Speculation part XXII

[Jame]

You keep insisting it happened, but I've never read a McCabe description of yours that dove into the specific things he got better at, or that didn't hand-waive away the inherent weaknesses of his skillset with "he'll add more consistency, he's young."

Meanwhile, you **** on Tyler Myers who had 3-4 years that were > literally any McCabe season by the same age.

And seriously, stop bringing Reinhart up like they're comparable. They weren't. Jake is fine but this is ****ing absurd.

Oh man... that attempted narrative gets the of the year

 

[Der Jaeger]

Its not like you can get a Karlsson at 15 guys

...

Especially not with Tim Murray scouting

...

I mean you for sure couldn't have the guy this board inexplicably voted 4th! In their draft rankings and the top D available at that pick just this year.

...

Posted by me in January:

16-30, 2000-2010, top 6 forwards and top 4 pairings. Timeframe gives time for picks to pan out.

Top 6 forwards: Hossa, Justin Williams, Frolov, Boyes, Goc, Steen, Perry, Getzlaf, Kesler, Richards, Parise, Zajac, Oshie, Hanzal, Foligno, Giroux, Perron, Pacioretty, Eberle, Johannson, Kreider, Tarasenko, Coyle, Bjugstad, Kuznetsov

Top 4: Orpik, Kronwall, Burns (giving here since he was drafted as a winger), Mike Green, Niskanen, Kindl, David Smith, Carlson, Gardiner, Leddy, Moore

I get it ... it's subjective. I used common sense. "One year wonders, coulda-shoulda-woulda, on a different team, he'll develop" arguments didn't make the list...Anton Babchuk, Meszaros, Cogliano, Berglund, Chris Stewart, Del Zotto, Ennis, Palmieri, Sheahan, Pysyk

Now let's do the same years, 1-15.

Top 6 forwards: Heatley, Gaborik, Hartnall, Kovalchuk, Spezza, Koivu, Ruutu, Hemsky, Nash, Lupul, Semin, Eric Staal, Horton, Vanek, Carter, Brown, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Ladd, Wheeler, Crosby, Ryan, Kopitar, J. Staal, Toews, Backstrom, Kessel, Brassard, Frolik, Little, Kane, JVR, Turris, Voracek, Couture, Stamkos, Boedker, Tavares, Duchene, Hall, Seguin, Johansen, Skinner

Top 4 defensemen: Hamhuis, Bouwmeester, Pitkanen, Suter, Coburn, Phanuef, Seabrook, Johnson, Johnson, Alzner, McDonagh, Shattenkirk, Doughty, Bogosian, Pietrangelo, Boychuk, Myers, Karlsson, Hedman, OEL, Kulikov, Fowler

16-30: 25 top 6 forwards.
1-15: 43 top 6 forwards.

16-30: 11 top 4 defensemen
1-15: 22 top 4 defensemen

25 to 11... a little less than 50%. 43 to 22... a little more than 50%. Some beer math here, admittedly.

The bolded names: I wanted to see what the elite talent looked like in those groups. I defined that as a talent that's the best forward or defenseman on almost any team in the league.... unless another equally talented player is there. Crosby-Malkin, Shattenkirk-Pietrangelo, Getzlaf-Perry.

16-30: 5 forwards, 2 defensemen
1-15: 15 forwards, 10 defenseman

To support my original thought: Murray can find running mates for Eichel, O'Reilly, and Reinhart 16-30. Exclude the elite guys, and Murray can find another Oshie, Kreider, Coyle, Justin Williams to put on their wings, and those lines will do well.

If Murray is looking for the Seabrook to Ristolainen's Keith, he needs to do it in the top 15. 16-30, he'll surely find a Maatta or Niskanen like running mate for Ristolainen, or a good chemistry fit. To get someone that anchors another pair (think Shattenkirk-Pietro), he's going to find that elite defenseman 1-15.

Again, I get it, I didn't set a basis of measure and make this a scientific study. Look at the names and it's clear that if Murray wants to find the guy that anchors the second pair, or a scorer to put on the wing, he needs to go defense while he's drafting 1-15.

This is why I wanted Juolevi, and why I wished be picked Sergachev. But you can use anecdotal evidence to support your argument. Even while you argued that NO defenseman was worth the Sabres pick. Maybe we should ask Benning how he feels about that.

Or Tim Murray, who reportedly had Juolevi, Nylander, and then Sergachev as his three targets.

But you'll continue to focus on Chychrun, while ignoring that you were dead wrong on Juolevi and Sergachev.

Lol at that last part. majority of this board wanted Chychrun, but now have regrets about Sergachev..

Not part of the majority. I thought we'd pick Chychrun, but I wanted Juolevi. You can check who I voted for in the draft poll. I also posted that I really liked Sergachev. But lump me in with "everyone." Makes for a better argument.

Especially since I'm arguing that the Sabres should've taken the #3 guy on Murray's list over the #2 guy. A big stretch there.

 

[brian_griffin]

Its not like you can get a Karlsson at 15 guys

...

Especially not with Tim Murray scouting

...

I mean you for sure couldn't have the guy this board inexplicably voted 4th! In their draft rankings and the top D available at that pick just this year.

...

Why half-ass the bad-logic argument? Why not draft all wings all the time? 1000+ NHL game D-man Brian Campbell was drafted in the 6th round. Former Sabres Dennis Wideman, Scott Nichol, & Uwe Krupp, were picked #214, #241, #272 in rounds that don't even exist anymore, and they all had 650-750game NHL careers. I conclude BUF should just sign UDFA D-men a few days after the draft. Am I doing this right?

 

[joshjull]

Huh? Literally everyone is talking about whether he is ready for a certain role next year. I certainly think he has top 4 ability. He just doesn't have that effectiveness now.

To be fair, this discussion about McCabe grew out of a trade idea that would bring Martinez here. So its starts as an argument over who is better of those two. Who should be in the top 4 of the two (Obviously Martinez though a few disgreed) if ther trade happened. Then it morphed into where McCabe is developmentally. Is he ready for the playoffs in the top 4? etc. with some still bringing up Martinez.

I agree it would be a good idea from a development pov and team structure pov to start McCabe on the 3rd pairing. But I can see someone arguing McCabe as a 2nd pairing or top 4 guy in the context of his current competition for the spot (Gorges). Whether he is ready for it, particularly come playoffs, is another matter.

 

[Zip15]

Good to hear Okposo saying that the current team isn't what the Opening Night roster will be. And I don't think he was referring to signing a 7th defenseman. I imagine he's been told that more moves will be made, regardless of Vesey's decision.

 

[sabrebuild]

To be fair, this discussion about McCabe grew out of a trade idea that would bring Martinez here. So its starts as an argument over who is better of those two. Who should be in the top 4 of the two (Obviously Martinez though a few disgreed) if ther trade happened. Then it morphed into where McCabe is developmentally. Is he ready for the playoffs in the top 4? etc. with some still bringing up Martinez.

I agree it would be a good idea from a development pov and team structure pov to start McCabe on the 3rd pairing. But I can see someone arguing McCabe as a 2nd pairing or top 4 guy in the context of his current competition for the spot (Gorges). Whether he is ready for it, particularly come playoffs, is another matter.

Fairness is what actually happened. This upcoming year, is McCabe as good as Martinez? Is McCabe ready this year or was he last year for a top 4 role?

Nobody brought up his long term role until the post I responded to. If I missed that please re-post it for me.

 

[Sabretip]

This upcoming year, is McCabe as good as Martinez? Is McCabe ready this year or was he last year for a top 4 role?.

Not sure why there's any question - facts speak for themselves. McCabe played most of the 2nd half of last season in the top 4 and often led in TOI after Ristolainen. His play at IIHF tourney cemented that fact even further.

If the Sabres were to add another defenseman the caliber or Fowler or someone else, another defenseman like Bogosian or Franson would likely be shipped out before the season. McCabe isn't sliding down to the 3rd pairing IMO.

 

[Myllz]

Good to hear Okposo saying that the current team isn't what the Opening Night roster will be. And I don't think he was referring to signing a 7th defenseman. I imagine he's been told that more moves will be made, regardless of Vesey's decision.

Was that in his press conference somewhere? I didn't notice him say that.

 

[Revelate]

Good to hear Okposo saying that the current team isn't what the Opening Night roster will be. And I don't think he was referring to signing a 7th defenseman. I imagine he's been told that more moves will be made, regardless of Vesey's decision.

What did he say specifically? Or is that the full gist of it?

 

[Crazy Tasty]

I heard it as more of a vague statement that the team as it is on 7/7 will not be the same on opening night. It could be interpreted a few different ways.

 

[Husko]

Not sure why there's any question - facts speak for themselves. McCabe played most of the 2nd half of last season in the top 4 and often led in TOI after Ristolainen. His play at IIHF tourney cemented that fact even further.

If the Sabres were to add another defenseman the caliber or Fowler or someone else, another defenseman like Bogosian or Franson would likely be shipped out before the season. McCabe isn't sliding down to the 3rd pairing IMO.

He might already be there, depending on what we do with he and Georges (who plays with Bogo). If we traded forwards for Fowler, guarantee our top-4 would be Risto, Bogo, Kulikov, and Fowler, and not include McCabe.

 

[Sabreality]

Was that in his press conference somewhere? I didn't notice him say that.

yeah it was in response to the how close is Buffalo to competing question. i didnt take it as a definitive statement that more moves are coming, just that we dont know what opening night will look like yet.

 

[sabrebuild]

Not sure why there's any question - facts speak for themselves. McCabe played most of the 2nd half of last season in the top 4 and often led in TOI after Ristolainen. His play at IIHF tourney cemented that fact even further.

If the Sabres were to add another defenseman the caliber or Fowler or someone else, another defenseman like Bogosian or Franson would likely be shipped out before the season. McCabe isn't sliding down to the 3rd pairing IMO.

Are you serious? No **** that he played the minutes. The whole conversation is whether he played them competently enough for him to be effective for a good team, not the 8th worse team in the league.

Let's try to keep up.

Edit: by that logic Gorges is a top 4 defender... just shoot me.

 

[stokes84]

Are you serious? No **** that he played the minutes. The whole conversation is whether he played them competently enough for him to be effective for a good team, not the 8th worse team in the league.

Let's try to keep up.

Edit: by that logic Gorges is a top 4 defender... just shoot me.

Considering the Sabres were a pretty good team when he was getting those big minutes...

What was their record in the 2nd half of the season? Pretty sure it was a playoff pace.

 

[Samsonite23]

Considering the Sabres were a pretty good team when he was getting those big minutes...

What was their record in the 2nd half of the season? Pretty sure it was a playoff pace.

Yeah, they were good enough for 8th from last.

He played those minutes in the first half of the season too.

 

[Husko]

Yeah, they were good enough for 8th from last.

He played those minutes in the first half of the season too.

Not exactly. His TOI ticked up big time in March. The Sabres went about .500 during March and April.

 

[Revelate]

Not exactly. His TOI ticked up big time in March. The Sabres went about .500 during March and April.

They were on a 104 point pace during March and April including loser points. Easier competition though.

 

[Sabre Dance]

I don't understand these constant McCabe debates.

 

[Samsonite23]

Not exactly. His TOI ticked up big time in March. The Sabres went about .500 during March and April.

He said 2nd half. I figured he meant the whole 2nd half compared to the first.

 

[jBuds]

I don't understand these constant McCabe debates.

I enjoy them. There are so many mental pieces in motion when you try to talk about him.


- his Sabre season was a good debut year for him... he did a ton right, and it's so very clear he knows the position in all three zones


- his WC trip was - and I preface this as the biggest supporter of defenseman in the entire naish - EXTREMELY overrated, from casual fans who saw a shift or two, to internet broski's who simply looked at the end of tournament statsheet/awards


- you can't let chatter or outside noise determine/alter your path for a guy...if you weigh his entire NHL season with his WC trip, you get your answer


he's not ready to be handed a top-4 role out of the gates as he is when the WC ended. So barring insane summer improvements with a Gorges dropoff, it may be a few weeks to months before his role increases. I'm fine with that.


I said in another thread: it's not a matter of IF he will blossom, it's a matter of when

 

[Dingo44]

I don't understand these constant McCabe debates.

Especially because this isn't the Jake McCabe thread.

I'm not sure I get the obsession - he was a rookie last year, and sometimes he played pretty well, and other times he struggled. He got better as the season went on and at the end of the year he got an invite to the World Championships where he played very well. The Sabres seem very high on him. No one is saying he's a future #1 D but I'm sure he'll be in the top 4.

Not sure where there is debate. It's pretty cut and dry.

 

[Blitz]

I really like McCabe, I'm just not 100% convinced he's done 'slow-cooking'... I'm not saying send him to ROCH, just maybe sheltering his minutes.

What would we think about trying to get Kris Russell in here to insulate the Left side?

Kulikov - Ristolainen
Russell - Bogosian
McCabe/Gorges - Nelson/Franson

 

[DJN21]

I really like McCabe, I'm just not 100% convinced he's done 'slow-cooking'... I'm not saying send him to ROCH, just maybe sheltering his minutes.

What would we think about trying to get Kris Russell in here to insulate the Left side?

Kulikov - Ristolainen
Russell - Bogosian
McCabe/Gorges - Nelson/Franson

Haven't been a huge Russell fan...respect his shot blocking but even without a contract at this point I have to imagine he'd price himself out of buffalo and wouldn't offer much imo that our in house options couldn't.

 

[joshjull]

Fairness is what actually happened. This upcoming year, is McCabe as good as Martinez? Is McCabe ready this year or was he last year for a top 4 role?

Nobody brought up his long term role until the post I responded to. If I missed that please re-post it for me.

I was trying to say that some of you were talking past each other. -

-Some were discussing McCabe in the top 4 in the context of the trade where Martinez is acquired. As in which of the two would be in the top 4.
-Some were talking about McCabe in the top 4 and using Martinez as a bench mark but he wasn't here via trade
-Some just discussed whether or not McCabe should be in our top 4 and Martinez wasn't part of their discussion.

It just seemed like things morphed enough throughout the debate that some entered without knowing the earlier context with the trade/Martinez. Or responded to posts that were about one of the 3 above but not exactly the one they thought. It seemed to lead to talking a past each other from my perspective. Not a big deal.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

I don't understand these constant McCabe debates.

It's the "we don't need defense because we don't score goals" crowd projecting him to be the type pairing stabilizer we lack to shut up the "we need defense" crowd who loves that archetype of player.

And because some members enjoy further entrenching themselves they do things like compare his growth over the course of the season to Sam Reinhart. And I don't abide by that.