Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2024-25: Re-Tool, Re-Group, Re-Mix, Re-Build

[doublechili]

The Isles are easily a bottom 10 destination.

IDK about that. Have you seen the menu of food the chef at the Northwell practice facility whips up for them?

Seriously, you're probably not far off. I might be more optimistic and say bottom 15, but they're still at a disadvantage when it comes to UFAs. Like, I highly doubt Horvat would've signed with the Isles as a UFA, but once they traded for him he got to know the team and the area a bit and, oh yeah, the Isles could offer him an extra year and therefore an extra $8M.

 

[seabass45]

It’s all connected. Teams have more space because players take discounts for one reason or another (I named a few in another post). Teams also havespace because they have players under team control on ELCs and bridge deals.

We don’t have much of that because we have traded most of our early round picks since Lou got here. If we had signed players of that caliber during FA instead of giving up assets for them, we’d have both. That’s why teams that do successful rebuilds stockpile picks.

But the most successful teams of this decade have dumped many of their picks. They traded them to get players who they feel fit their short and long term goals. They're very limited in who they have on ELCs. Tampa had one significant one on their first run and none the following year. Florida had one. I don't think Vegas had any.

(Tampa did have something big that helped them a lot: getting franchise pieces from *later* picks)

We've had a few ELCs that could have contributed more to recent runs, and they haven't exactly lived up to expectations. Wahlstrom is the big one but Holmstrom counts here too. Bolduc or Salo could have taken big steps to fill the gap at LD, they haven't. But Wahlstrom... if he takes the leap in 2020 or 2021 or anytime afterwards it's possible we aren't arguing any of this. He was our Lundell/Sergachev but never had the impact we were hoping for. Only one player taken with the first round picks traded after Holmstrom has had significant NHL time (Ridly Greig) and he hasn't exactly made a significant impact. Frank Nazar might be nice to have but instead we have a cost-controlled player at a big position of need.

BTW you're going to hate hearing this but Pulock, Pelech, Mayfield, and Cizikas arguably all took discounts to stick around. Pulock would have gotten 7+ on the open market as maybe the top UFA RD available that year. Cizikas was weighing a big offer from Seattle to move and decided against it. Mayfield could have gotten close to 5 from a team desperate for RDs and would have been within his rights to leave after finishing a huge discount deal. As for Pelech, look at the reactions here after he re-signed.

There is just a ton of buyer's remorse around here and this talk about "attractive destinations" is still incoherent. Players aren't forced to stick around, and they do, and as a result we don't have much space to do anything significant this offseason. I'm baffled that we're even talking about regrets about missing UFAs now because the guys who came up most in the run up to July 1 were trade targets, not UFAs.

 

[seabass45]

That's instructive to a point, but I also think there's a big difference between preference for a city to play an away game in (hotels, restaurants, arena atmosphere, etc.) versus where do you want to live.

That top 3 probably holds for home destinations. And Carolina just lost Skjei and Pesce. The equivalent would probably be if we lost Pelech and Pulock in the same offseason.

 

[Throttle]

That's instructive to a point, but I also think there's a big difference between preference for a city to play an away game in (hotels, restaurants, arena atmosphere, etc.) versus where do you want to live.

Aucoin stated awhile back that OTT was boring and quiet - he said as an older player with a family, it was fine with him.

IDK about that. Have you seen the menu of food the chef at the Northwell practice facility whips up for them?

Seriously, you're probably not far off. I might be more optimistic and say bottom 15, but they're still at a disadvantage when it comes to UFAs. Like, I highly doubt Horvat would've signed with the Isles as a UFA, but once they traded for him he got to know the team and the area a bit and, oh yeah, the Isles could offer him an extra year and therefore an extra $8M.

This is the Isles tactic and required way of operating- trade for a player, show him around (groom him), then pay a bit more, but give term. Most players want the security (not every player, most) and just play hockey.

 

[bstash19]

The Isles are easily a bottom 10 destination.

I agree, its probably: (in no particular order)

Top 10:
nyr
florida
tampa bay
nashville
LA
toronto
chicago
vegas
philly
boston


Middle 12:
edmonton
vancouver
utah
anaheim
seattle
colorado
washington
minnesota
dallas
st louis
detroit
montreal


Bottom 10:
ottawa
winnepeg
calgary
carolina
san jose
nyi
nj
columbus
buffalo
pittsburgh

Obviously its not the same for all players. ex. French Canadian players probably have Montréal in the top 10. And there's obviously a lot of factors at play, such as taxes, quality and direction of the team, etc.

 

[impaaaaaact]

But the most successful teams of this decade have dumped many of their picks. They traded them to get players who they feel fit their short and long term goals. They're very limited in who they have on ELCs. Tampa had one significant one on their first run and none the following year. Florida had one. I don't think Vegas had any.

(Tampa did have something big that helped them a lot: getting franchise pieces from *later* picks)

We've had a few ELCs that could have contributed more to recent runs, and they haven't exactly lived up to expectations. Wahlstrom is the big one but Holmstrom counts here too. Bolduc or Salo could have taken big steps to fill the gap at LD, they haven't. But Wahlstrom... if he takes the leap in 2020 or 2021 or anytime afterwards it's possible we aren't arguing any of this. He was our Lundell/Sergachev but never had the impact we were hoping for. Only one player taken with the first round picks traded after Holmstrom has had significant NHL time (Ridly Greig) and he hasn't exactly made a significant impact. Frank Nazar might be nice to have but instead we have a cost-controlled player at a big position of need.

BTW you're going to hate hearing this but Pulock, Pelech, Mayfield, and Cizikas arguably all took discounts to stick around. Pulock would have gotten 7+ on the open market as maybe the top UFA RD available that year. Cizikas was weighing a big offer from Seattle to move and decided against it. Mayfield could have gotten close to 5 from a team desperate for RDs and would have been within his rights to leave after finishing a huge discount deal. As for Pelech, look at the reactions here after he re-signed.

There is just a ton of buyer's remorse around here and this talk about "attractive destinations" is still incoherent. Players aren't forced to stick around, and they do, and as a result we don't have much space to do anything significant this offseason. I'm baffled that we're even talking about regrets about missing UFAs now because the guys who came up most in the run up to July 1 were trade targets, not UFAs.

Yeah, hitting on Point in the third round is huge. We have a pretty important player we took in the third too come to think of it...

I think it's common for players who have been in one location for years to take a slight discount to not uproot their lives - each of those players signed for at least 6 seasons so it seems like that could be important to them. I'm not sure if any other team would have offered to sign Cizikas until age 35 or Mayfield until age 37 but I get the general point you're making.

I don't think you can use the word destination when referring to a place a player already lives and plays. I think there's a clear difference between re-signing a player who is already here and attracting a player that previously played somewhere else. I definitely initially forgot Varly (feels like he's been here forever), but the fact that he and Parise are our only impact FA signings that didn't require us to relinquish a pick or a prospect over 6 seasons is concerning to me.

 

[12Dog]

Considering that guys like Ryan Smyth and Thomas Vanek did exactly that, it is noteworthy that players are actually willing to sign here now.

Revisionist history
Smyth cried leaving Edmonton, never wanted to leave and everyone except Garth knew Vanek was going to Minnesota

 

[12Dog]

That's instructive to a point, but I also think there's a big difference between preference for a city to play an away game in (hotels, restaurants, arena atmosphere, etc.) versus where do you want to live.

Exactly
Look at how many guys come here and stay and raise families here
Even after they’re done playing

But the most successful teams of this decade have dumped many of their picks. They traded them to get players who they feel fit their short and long term goals. They're very limited in who they have on ELCs. Tampa had one significant one on their first run and none the following year. Florida had one. I don't think Vegas had any.

(Tampa did have something big that helped them a lot: getting franchise pieces from *later* picks)

We've had a few ELCs that could have contributed more to recent runs, and they haven't exactly lived up to expectations. Wahlstrom is the big one but Holmstrom counts here too. Bolduc or Salo could have taken big steps to fill the gap at LD, they haven't. But Wahlstrom... if he takes the leap in 2020 or 2021 or anytime afterwards it's possible we aren't arguing any of this. He was our Lundell/Sergachev but never had the impact we were hoping for. Only one player taken with the first round picks traded after Holmstrom has had significant NHL time (Ridly Greig) and he hasn't exactly made a significant impact. Frank Nazar might be nice to have but instead we have a cost-controlled player at a big position of need.

BTW you're going to hate hearing this but Pulock, Pelech, Mayfield, and Cizikas arguably all took discounts to stick around. Pulock would have gotten 7+ on the open market as maybe the top UFA RD available that year. Cizikas was weighing a big offer from Seattle to move and decided against it. Mayfield could have gotten close to 5 from a team desperate for RDs and would have been within his rights to leave after finishing a huge discount deal. As for Pelech, look at the reactions here after he re-signed.

There is just a ton of buyer's remorse around here and this talk about "attractive destinations" is still incoherent. Players aren't forced to stick around, and they do, and as a result we don't have much space to do anything significant this offseason. I'm baffled that we're even talking about regrets about missing UFAs now because the guys who came up most in the run up to July 1 were trade targets, not UFAs.

How many guys on the current roster in Toronto took a penny of discount to play in the Mecca of hockey for a top 6 franchise?

 

[LeapOnOver]

Florida did the same thing with Tkachuk (and to some degree Reinhart). Vegas did it with Mark Stone, and they did it with a former pick WE sent them to unload a bad contract and protect Pelech from being taken in expansion. Tampa did it for McDonagh and has repeatedly unloaded their future picks for players they sign to long deals. They’ve made one first round pick in the last five years. Florida will go four straight years without making a first round selection as a result of the deals they’ve made.

Sorry, this is just nonsense from bitter people who are mad that this hasn’t worked out for the Isles as well as it did for other teams. The teams able to sign UFAs this year have one big advantage over us: they have cap space, we only had enough to sign Duclair. That’s it.

It's not really though. They were able to get all those other players with trades AND get players without losing assets, like Bobrovsky. It's just logical that being a place where people want to play is an edge. You can't explain that away no matter how much you disagree with it, or want it not to be true.

 

[seabass45]

It's not really though. They were able to get all those other players with trades AND get players without losing assets, like Bobrovsky. It's just logical that being a place where people want to play is an edge. You can't explain that away no matter how much you disagree with it, or want it not to be true.

Great example with Bobrovsky. Florida bid against themselves on that one, people here spent most of the time since then treating the contract like a boat anchor, overpaid his backup thinking he might take over, he didn’t, and Bob turned back the clock long enough to put in a league average regular season and leg them through the playoffs. And even after winning a ring they’re STILL posting trade threads with him in the trade forum. You think it’s about the destination when a goalie is handed ten million dollars per year? Funny.

 

[LeapOnOver]

Great example with Bobrovsky. Florida bid against themselves on that one, people here spent most of the time since then treating the contract like a boat anchor, overpaid his backup thinking he might take over, he didn’t, and Bob turned back the clock long enough to put in a league average regular season and leg them through the playoffs. And even after winning a ring they’re STILL posting trade threads with him in the trade forum. You think it’s about the destination when a goalie is handed ten million dollars per year? Funny.

I wonder if you'd be boohooing all this if the Isles just won a Stanley Cup.
Fact: Florida got a Stanley Cup caliber Vezina winning goal tender using no assets
Fact: That allowed them to use the assets they kept to trade for other key pieces
Fact: Florida is a destination city as Bobrovsky signed there, Tkachuk agreed to an extension if traded there, etc.

All of these are indisputable. Any amount of cherry picking salary amount or fan sentiment is all white noise that doesn't change facts. Again, add all the emotional opinion you want to it, none of it changes the above. That's an edge.

 

[impaaaaaact]

Great example with Bobrovsky. Florida bid against themselves on that one, people here spent most of the time since then treating the contract like a boat anchor, overpaid his backup thinking he might take over, he didn’t, and Bob turned back the clock long enough to put in a league average regular season and leg them through the playoffs. And even after winning a ring they’re STILL posting trade threads with him in the trade forum. You think it’s about the destination when a goalie is handed ten million dollars per year? Funny.

you’re moving the goal posts like crazy my guy. pretty unfortunate after calling out other posts for being incoherent.

kinda weird not to be able to concede that it’s better to not give up assets for players, seems kinda straight forward. why pay for something if you can get it for free?

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

kinda weird not to be able to concede that it’s better to not give up assets for players, seems kinda straight forward. why pay for something if you can get it for free?

It's not straight forward. People pay to guarantee outcomes all the time. Why is it different for the NHL?

 

[LeapOnOver]

It's not straight forward. People pay to guarantee outcomes all the time. Why is it different for the NHL?

Feel like he meant that it was straight forward an edge. If you and I both want some car, and I can just pay the money for it, but you have to pay the same money for it and give them your current car, I'm getting the better deal (unless I guess your car is super old and not worth anything and you'd have to pay for someone to take it away, but let's say that's not the case for the purpose of this analogy).

 

[seabass45]

That's an edge.

You’re right, there’s an edge to offering a giant pile of money that nobody else is.

 

[seabass45]

you’re moving the goal posts like crazy my guy. pretty unfortunate after calling out other posts for being incoherent.

kinda weird not to be able to concede that it’s better to not give up assets for players, seems kinda straight forward. why pay for something if you can get it for free?

What goalposts? You couldn’t even remember we got Varlamov the same way that Florida got Bob, on the same day. I had to point that out for you. I also pointed out that Florida and Tampa have given up major assets to acquire and lock in talent long term, just like we have. There’s no inconsistency here.

 

[LeapOnOver]

Great example with Bobrovsky. Florida bid against themselves on that one, people here spent most of the time since then treating the contract like a boat anchor, overpaid his backup thinking he might take over, he didn’t, and Bob turned back the clock long enough to put in a league average regular season and leg them through the playoffs. And even after winning a ring they’re STILL posting trade threads with him in the trade forum. You think it’s about the destination when a goalie is handed ten million dollars per year? Funny.

This is where you are moving the goalposts. You are basically saying, "Yes, they did exactly what you said, but <insert white noise> means your still right and I don't have a point anymore but I'm going to keep adding on stuff to pretend I do".

 

[Top Corner]

Another player I would have added was Boqvist , it seems Florida does well picking up younger players with upside that haven’t got there yet and puck moving D is something we are short on

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

Feel like he meant that it was straight forward an edge. If you and I both want some car, and I can just pay the money for it, but you have to pay the same money for it and give them your current car, I'm getting the better deal (unless I guess your car is super old and not worth anything and you'd have to pay for someone to take it away, but let's say that's not the case for the purpose of this analogy).

In that analogy, the valuation would ostensibly be the same. It's the same deal.

A better analogy would be if you wanted 3rd base line tickets for a ballgame. You can pay the convenience fee and buy the tickets ahead of time, guaranteeing your preferred outcome at the expense of extra money, or you can take your chances at the gate on game day. You might save money, but you might not get your preferred seat. There's value in doing it either way, it's just a matter of how you prioritize it.

 

[IslesNorway]

Another player I would have added was Boqvist , it seems Florida does well picking up younger players with upside that haven’t got there yet and puck moving D is something we are short on

Lou chose to extend Reilly instead. They had one spot on D and gave it to him. The current cap situation has no openings for adding extra players.

 

[The Real JT]

Lou chose to extend Reilly instead. They had one spot on D and gave it to him. The current cap situation has no openings for adding extra players.

Your reference to the Reilly signing got me thinking about the moves over the past 2 seasons.

I applaud Lou for signing Reilly to a position of need at a bargain price without term. If he proves himself again then maybe he gets a better deal when it’s time for him to reup.

Where was that thought process with Engvall? Toronto was in the middle of a playoff run when they dumped him for a third round pick without receiving an NHL ready asset in return.

Engvall meanwhile played decently for the Isles but certainly didn’t overachieve to any extent. Why then sign him to that egregiously long deal? Why Lou, why?

 

[JRD76]

Your reference to the Reilly signing got me thinking about the moves over the past 2 seasons.

I applaud Lou for signing Reilly to a position of need at a bargain price without term. If he proves himself again then maybe he gets a better deal when it’s time for him to reup.

Where was that thought process with Engvall? Toronto was in the middle of a playoff run when they dumped him for a third round pick without receiving an NHL ready asset in return.

Engvall meanwhile played decently for the Isles but certainly didn’t overachieve to any extent. Why then sign him to that egregiously long deal? Why Lou, why?

Yea that one blew my mind. Who signs a guy that comes in and plays 18 games to a 7yr deal? Unless it's a top player in the league. Lou acting like he brought in some 20yr old that put up like 16 points in 18 games and says "we got a winner here boys!" and signs him long term lol. Engvall put up 9 points in 18 games, which is decent but not great..

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Lou chose to extend Reilly instead. They had one spot on D and gave it to him. The current cap situation has no openings for adding extra players.

Signing Reilly was an absolute no-brainer.

There were a few nights where he was our best defenseman.

There were plenty of nights where he provided solid top 4 minutes.

In general, save for Dobson, he gelled with our skill players better than any other blueliner.

Now we need to see if it was just a "right time, right place" situation because he was DEAD in the water when Lou grabbed him off waivers from Florida.

Yea that one blew my mind. Who signs a guy that comes in and plays 18 games to a 7yr deal? Unless it's a top player in the league. Lou acting like he brought in some 20yr old that put up like 16 points in 18 games and says "we got a winner here boys!" and signs him long term lol. Engvall put up 9 points in 18 games, which is decent but not great..

I think Lou truly, truly thought Engvall was on the brink of being a regular all-purpose 20-25-45 style forward with a body that is hard to play against, even without being physical.

 

[12Dog]

Signing Reilly was an absolute no-brainer.

There were a few nights where he was our best defenseman.

There were plenty of nights where he provided solid top 4 minutes.

In general, save for Dobson, he gelled with our skill players better than any other blueliner.

Now we need to see if it was just a "right time, right place" situation because he was DEAD in the water when Lou grabbed him off waivers from Florida.

Exactly
Which makes him only getting one year from Lou puzzling. He should’ve hired Engvall’s agent.

 

[PK Cronin]

Wasn't Engvall in the Toronto organization when Lamoriello was there? If so, then there's some familiarity with the player and his game that goes beyond is time with the Islanders.