Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[MacMacandBarbie]

Which decade? Pretty sure this has been asked in this thread already....

The one that took place from 2006-07 thru 2016-17. Thats 10 years. He led the league in PPG during that stretch in both playoffs and regular season, led Canada to Gold, 3 Stanley Cups, 2 Hart, 2 Art Ross, 2 Richard, 2 Conn Smythe.

I didn’t need to see a video to believe he’s a great scorer. It was just weird. A very odd move honestly. And like I said, you then followed it up with…and let me quote you correctly this time….”something you have never seen before.” You tried to make it sound so unique and special. It was honestly adorable.

Truth hurt again? Funny calling me “unhinged” considering your opinions…like about the Art Ross.

But I didn't post it in reply to you. I posted the video in a single comment to the whole thread. You don't have to comment on everything I post, and not everything(or anything, really) that i post is for you specifically. What a weird thing to say.

You just said he played crappy canadien teams for 56 games, that’s why he scored a 100 points and had such a high pace….yet he established himself 2 years later with the same pace and a full schedule…

“That has nothing to do with anything we are talking about.”

The fact that he played at that full pace 2 years later has no bearing on whether people thought he would break 100 in that season.

 

[GreatGonzo]

The one that took place from 2006-07 thru 2016-17. Thats 10 years. He led the league in PPG during that stretch in both playoffs and regular season, led Canada to Gold, 3 Stanley Cups, 2 Hart, 2 Art Ross, 2 Richard, 2 Conn Smythe.

But I didn't post it in reply to you. I posted the video in a single comment to the whole thread. You don't have to comment on everything I post, and not everything(or anything, really) that i post is for you specifically. What a weird thing to say.

Yeah, they fact that he played it a full pace 2 years later has what bearing on whether people thought he would break 100 in that season? Get on somewhere with your hijacking and flaming. Legit you are crossing the line at this point.

But it wasn’t the best player in the world that entire span. Sorry to break it to you.



It was the fact that you said “watch something you haven’t seen before.” That’s what made it funny and ridiculous. Again, weird move

Well you clearly have no clue what either of those terms mean considering neither happened.

Don’t get all emotional and frustrated and start with your “you crossed the line” little act. I’m not the one spouting off nonsense and it being used against. That’s your doing. Blame yourself.

I’m calling you out on your silliness and you can’t handle it. That’s all that’s happening right now.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Best playoff performer who never led his team in scoring in a cup win

Isn't that McDavid?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Isn't that McDavid?

Wow….

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

But it wasn’t the best player in the world that entire span. Sorry to break it to you.

Sorry to break it to you, but he was in the conversation for 1A/1B best player in the world or de facto best player in the world every single year for that decade. That is the consensus among writers, analysts, and fans.

It was the fact that you said “watch something you haven’t seen before.” That’s what made it funny and ridiculous. Again, weird move

Please tell me English isn't your first language? It would be the only explanation for the disconnect.

Well you clearly have no clue what either of those terms mean considering neither happened.

Don’t get all emotional and frustrated and start with your “you crossed the line” little act. I’m not the one spouting off nonsense and it being used against. That’s your doing. Blame yourself.

You can't just say somebody said something they didn't say. When you quote somebody, the polite thing on these boards is to hit that little quote button and actually quote what they said. It is wrong to just throw up the quote marks and pretend someone said something they didn't, and to keep repeating it without the actual quote is wrong.

Wow….

I am glad you can at least appreciate a good quip. Serious question for you, is English your native tongue?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Sorry to break it to you, but he was in the conversation for 1A/1B best player in the world or de facto best player in the world every single year for that decade. That is the consensus among writers, analysts, and fans.

Please tell me English isn't your first language? It would be the only explanation for the disconnect.

You can't just say somebody said something they didn't say. When you quote somebody, the polite thing on these boards is to hit that little quote button and actually quote what they said. It is wrong to just throw up the quote marks and pretend someone said something they didn't, and to keep repeating it without the actual quote is wrong.

Being “in the conversation” isn’t being the undisputed best. Not that I expected you to know the difference, but ya…there is a difference.

2006? He wasn’t even the best rookie. So no, 2008-10? CLEARLY Ovechkins peak. That was his time. 2012? Malkin all day. 2015-17? This is where playoffs holds more value and he starts being “in the conversation” more than actually being THE best.

You once again realized you said something ridiculous….got called out on it, and now you are attacking my English?

What the hell are you talking about? I’m quoting things YOU said. Now it’s hurting your feelings? You attack me but then can’t handle having a taste of your own medicine? Interesting…

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Being “in the conversation” isn’t being the undisputed best. Not that I expected you to know the difference, but ya…there is a difference.

There is a difference. He was undisputed best some years, and in a 1A/1B conversation other years. Are you trying to argue McDavid has been defacto number 1 throughout his time in the league?

2006? He wasn’t even the best rookie. So no, 2008-10? CLEARLY Ovechkins peak. That was his time. 2012? Malkin all day. 2015-17? This is where playoffs holds more value and he starts being “in the conversation” more than actually being THE best.

2006-07. So one year after his rookie season is when we started, leading all the way up to his 2nd cup win and Conn Smythe was when most people have cited him as the best throughout that stretch. And he was, or was 1A/1B, every year. Including OV's peak. I remember very fondly people being split down the middle during OV's peak, because it was one of the best periods of hockey ever. People were very split, they were consensus top 2.

You once again realized you said something ridiculous….got called out on it, and now you are attacking my English?

What the hell are you talking about? I’m quoting things YOU said. Now it’s hurting your feelings? You attack me but then can’t handle having a taste of your own medicine? Interesting…

It was a serious question actually.

 

[norrisnick]

The one that took place from 2006-07 thru 2016-17. Thats 10 years. He led the league in PPG during that stretch in both playoffs and regular season, led Canada to Gold, 3 Stanley Cups, 2 Hart, 2 Art Ross, 2 Richard, 2 Conn Smythe.

Ovechkin outscored him for those seasons, goals and points. Finished ahead of Crosby for the Hart in more seasons winning 3 Harts, 3 Pearsons, 6 Richards. But played on lesser teams. It gets even more skewed if you add '05-'06 and '17-'18. There really is no way to carve out any significant stretch of time where Ovechkin didn't accomplish more as an individual.

 

[Video Nasty]

It was a chat GPT copy/paste. Either way, what a weird direction to go down with a reply.

Actually when scoring went through the roof a lot of people predicted he would hit 150. I remember 100 being split for people, as there were tons of believers since he was feasting on crappy canadian teams for 56 games.

Write your own posts.

As for the rest, false on all accounts.

What actually happened

And since people thought that he only cleared 100 because he “feasted on crappy Canadian teams for 56 games”, his pace for a full season was seen as a fluke that couldn’t be replicated and had a horde of doubters up until around it happened.

One of many threads on the topic
History Board Stuck in the Past Again
The Season Long Mega Thread

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Ovechkin outscored him for those seasons, goals and points. Finished ahead of Crosby for the Hart in more seasons winning 3 Harts, 3 Pearsons, 6 Richards. But played on lesser teams. It gets even more skewed if you add '05-'06 and '17-'18. There really is no way to carve out any significant stretch of time where Ovechkin didn't accomplish more as an individual.

2006-07: Crosby led league in points. OV 4th in goals and 13th in points. Advantage Crosby.

2007-08: OV has GOAT level scoring finishes and nearly sweeps awards. Crosby misses regular season games. Both finish with nearly identical PPG. Crosby leads team to cup finals. Advantage was slightly towards OV after this year, but that is when the debate heated up. Now we have a 1A/1B officially, fans choose sides, and they effectively 'saved the league'.

2008-09: Malkin, OV, and Crosby finish 1,2,3 in the scoring race, well above the rest of the league. Once again nearly identical PPG. Crosby and Malkin celebrate cup win while beating OV on the way. Malkin takes home Smythe. Conversation shifts to a 'Big 3' in the league. 1A/1B/1C.

2009-10: The Sedins peaked with Burrows along with Vancouver. They take home Art Ross. Crosby/OV finish neck and neck in the scoring race. Crosby beats OV for the Rocket, and now looks an equal goal scorer. Big 3 case weakens for Malkin. Crosby/OV firmly a 1A/1B.

2010-11: Crosby seemingly hits another level. His goal scoring picks up where it left off the season before. He gets 32 in 41 games. Unreal PPG lead. Gets hurt. OV has a weak season. Crosby starts to get a slight lean, but still 1A/1B.

2011-12: Crosby barely plays. 22 games. OV has down year with coaching change. Finishes 5th and 38th in goal scoring and points respectively. Malkin tops the charts. 'Big 3' talk heats up, Malkin fans come out of woodwork. 1A/1B/1C.

2012-13: Crosby leaves where he left off. Seems to have hit this next level with his goal scoring, and was lapping the league before he goes down with injury. Plays 25% less games than OV and ties him in scoring still. OV takes home Hart due to Crosby's missed games, and we are back to a fun 1A/1B, with a slight lean towards Crosby.

2013-14: Crosby leaves no doubt that he did hit another level. Wins Art Ross by 20% over 2nd place. Captures almost every vote for Hart. OV gets rocket, but doesn't finish top in points. Crosby also took home gold in Olympics with Golden Goal. Last season and injury riddled peak years for Crosby feel vindicated. He is better than OV now, who doesn't look like a top 2 player in the league. De Facto number 1.

2014-15: Crosby and OV both have regression years. They look older and in the 2nd half of their careers. The pack has caught up. However, they are still at the top with it. 1A/1B with other players having outside arguments.

2015-16: More of same. OV captures Rocket, finishes 15th in league scoring. Crosby 3rd in scoring and wins Smythe. He and OV still at the top of the league, but other players have firmly caught up. 1A/1B with other players having outside arguments, especially Kane that year. Crosby wins head to head battle in playoffs.

2016-17: McDavid rookie year, captures Art Ross. Crosby finishes 2nd in points though, and steals the Rocket for a 2nd time against OV. Also takes home Smythe. Crosby looked at as 1A/1B now with McDavid, and a passing of the torch season.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Write your own posts.

As for the rest, false on all accounts.

What actually happened

A thread poll taken before the season began. Not very insightful.

And since people thought that he only cleared 100 because he “feasted on crappy Canadian teams for 56 games”, his pace for a full season was seen as a fluke that couldn’t be replicated and had a horde of doubters up until around it happened.

One of many threads on the topic
History Board Stuck in the Past Again
The Season Long Mega Thread

You can clearly see around February in the megathread where traction picks up on belief he can do it. What do ya know, you are littered throughout that thread as one of those people leading the charge

 

[GreatGonzo]

There is a difference. He was undisputed best some years, and in a 1A/1B conversation other years. Are you trying to argue McDavid has been defacto number 1 throughout his time in the league?

2006-07. So one year after his rookie season is when we started, leading all the way up to his 2nd cup win and Conn Smythe was when most people have cited him as the best throughout that stretch. And he was, or was 1A/1B, every year. Including OV's peak. I remember very fondly people being split down the middle during OV's peak, because it was one of the best periods of hockey ever. People were very split, they were consensus top 2.

It was a serious question actually.

Nice strawman

That’s your opinion. Many say otherwise about Ovechkins peak, including this site. The stats, awards, everything backs it.

 

[Video Nasty]

Ovechkin outscored him for those seasons, goals and points. Finished ahead of Crosby for the Hart in more seasons winning 3 Harts, 3 Pearsons, 6 Richards. But played on lesser teams. It gets even more skewed if you add '05-'06 and '17-'18. There really is no way to carve out any significant stretch of time where Ovechkin didn't accomplish more as an individual.

Love how Ovechkin beats Crosby head to head as a rookie, thus the false timeline needs to start with 2006-2007. I wonder if it was because he also finished as a First-Team All-Star and was 6th in Hart voting as a rookie.

That Calder voting was not close. 124 first place votes to 4. Not dissimilar to the 283 first place votes Ovechkin soaked up in 2007-2008 through 2009-2010 compared to Crosby’s…20 total.

 

[GreatGonzo]

2006-07: Crosby led league in points. OV 4th in goals and 13th in points. Advantage Crosby.

2007-08: OV has GOAT level scoring finishes and nearly sweeps awards. Crosby misses regular season games. Both finish with nearly identical PPG. Crosby leads team to cup finals. Advantage was slightly towards OV after this year, but that is when the debate heated up. Now we have a 1A/1B officially, fans choose sides, and they effectively 'saved the league'.

2008-09: Malkin, OV, and Crosby finish 1,2,3 in the scoring race, well above the rest of the league. Once again nearly identical PPG. Crosby and Malkin celebrate cup win while beating OV on the way. Malkin takes home Smythe. Conversation shifts to a 'Big 3' in the league. 1A/1B/1C.

2009-10: The Sedins peaked with Burrows along with Vancouver. They take home Art Ross. Crosby/OV finish neck and neck in the scoring race. Crosby beats OV for the Rocket, and now looks an equal goal scorer. Big 3 case weakens for Malkin. Crosby/OV firmly a 1A/1B.

2010-11: Crosby seemingly hits another level. His goal scoring picks up where it left off the season before. He gets 32 in 41 games. Unreal PPG lead. Gets hurt. OV has a weak season. Crosby starts to get a slight lean, but still 1A/1B.

2011-12: Crosby barely plays. 22 games. OV has down year with coaching change. Finishes 5th and 38th in goal scoring and points respectively. Malkin tops the charts. 'Big 3' talk heats up, Malkin fans come out of woodwork. 1A/1B/1C.

2012-13: Crosby leaves where he left off. Seems to have hit this next level with his goal scoring, and was lapping the league before he goes down with injury. Plays 25% less games than OV and ties him in scoring still. OV takes home Hart due to Crosby's missed games, and we are back to a fun 1A/1B, with a slight lean towards Crosby.

2013-14: Crosby leaves no doubt that he did hit another level. Wins Art Ross by 20% over 2nd place. Captures almost every vote for Hart. OV gets rocket, but doesn't finish top in points. Crosby also took home gold in Olympics with Golden Goal. Last season and injury riddled peak years for Crosby feel vindicated. He is better than OV now, who doesn't look like a top 2 player in the league. De Facto number 1.

2014-15: Crosby and OV both have regression years. They look older and in the 2nd half of their careers. The pack has caught up. However, they are still at the top with it. 1A/1B with other players having outside arguments.

2015-16: More of same. OV captures Rocket, finishes 15th in league scoring. Crosby 3rd in scoring and wins Smythe. He and OV still at the top of the league, but other players have firmly caught up. 1A/1B with other players having outside arguments, especially Kane that year. Crosby wins head to head battle in playoffs.

2016-17: McDavid rookie year, captures Art Ross. Crosby finishes 2nd in points though, and steals the Rocket for a 2nd time against OV. Also takes home Smythe. Crosby looked at as 1A/1B now with McDavid, and a passing of the torch season.

2008: it’s an “advantage” to Crosby that he lost in the finals? Over a 65 goal, Art Ross, Rocket, Lindsay, Hart winning season….ok bud

2009: Ovechkin with the Rocket and Lindsay. Malkin would be “1B” to Ovechkins “1A”

2010: Ovechkin played in 10 less games and won the Lindsay. He was definitely 1A if there was one.

2014: the golden goal was 2010…

2015: Carey price. That’s all.

2016: which “head to head” battle did he win in the playoffs?

2017: that wasn’t his rookie year. McDavid also won the Hart and Lindsay. Also 1st team AS(over Crosby). If it was Crosby, that would be enough to have him 1A, but because it’s McDavid…

Also Ovechkin took home the smythe in 2018….come on, man…

 

[Video Nasty]

A thread poll taken before the season began. Not very insightful.

You can clearly see around February in the megathread where traction picks up on belief he can do it. What do ya know, you are littered throughout that thread as one of those people leading the charge

Yeah, I guess I’m having fun watching one of the five greatest players to ever set foot on the ice, while you’re doing whatever it is you’re doing with the lower tier led by Crosby.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Ovechkin outscored him for those seasons, goals and points. Finished ahead of Crosby for the Hart in more seasons winning 3 Harts, 3 Pearsons, 6 Richards. But played on lesser teams. It gets even more skewed if you add '05-'06 and '17-'18. There really is no way to carve out any significant stretch of time where Ovechkin didn't accomplish more as an individual.

Ovechkin played on lesser teams? Didn't the Capitals finish with the best record 3 times during that span?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Ovechkin played on lesser teams? Didn't the Capitals finish with the best record 3 times during that span?

If you are talking about ‘08-‘10, Only one of those years(2010). That sort of info isn’t hard to look up. The ‘08 team wasn’t great.

 

[nbwingsfan]

From the moment he stepped onto the ice, he captured the hearts of fans, becoming the youngest player ever to record a 100-point season. In his early years, he quickly established himself as one of the best of his generation, alongside Alex Ovechkin, who was setting historic marks on his way to becoming the greatest goal scorer of all time. He became the youngest captain to win the Stanley Cup, reaching back-to-back finals within his first five seasons. By 2014, he had solidified his position as the best of his generation, surpassing Ovechkin. With five league-leading PPG seasons and his most dominant Art Ross win, boasting a 20% lead over the second place, he capped off this era by leading Canada to Olympic Gold with the legendary 'Golden Goal.' From 2005 to 2014, Sidney Crosby stood head and shoulders above the league, with Ovechkin and occasionally Malkin vying for dominance, but it was Crosby's consistent excellence that reigned supreme throughout.


A teammate saying Crosby lifted him up isn't evidence that Crosby lifts players on his team up?

Gretzky saying Kyle Turris was better than himself at hockey isn’t evidence that Turris is actually the GOAT?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Recchi was 37 years old that year, Pallfy played 42 games in what would be his last NHL season.

Gonchar racked up the points on the PP (38 to be exact, 18 at ES) and was 31 years old.

Sure statiscally he was better than Seth Jones but there isn't a huge difference here and crosby really lapped the field on that team at ES.

Not really as Crosby was better than Bedard in their rookie seasons and the Pens had a .543 winning % and were second to last in the league.

Bedard's Black Hawks were also second last in the league and had a .317 winning % but the rules were slightly different for each season.




Like I said when I posted it, I have no problem saying that the Black Hawks were worse without Bedard but some of the Pens looked better because Sidney was also better.

The difference in supporting casts wasn't huge.

37yo Recchi had more points than anyone not named Bedard. Palffy in his 42 games would have still been 3rd on the Hawks in points. Gonchars 58pts would still be 2nd on the Hawks.

They’re not comparable supporting cast.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

That excuse is only going to be valid for so long.

When McDavid retires with 7+ Art Rosses, 4-5 Harts, 5-6 Lindsays, 2000+ points, and a few Cups/Conn Smythes, with all the other accomplishments he’s had and yet to come, it will be crystal clear who was better for longer.

yeah and over the next 10 years there's a VERY strong change my opinions change. I wasn't always a Crosby fan.

I used to call him Crysby just like everyone else. and Id be just as against placing him in the top 5 or where ever we;re arguing. McDavid will prob get there when its all said and done.

I also already admitted McDavid is the better player. but I still wouldn't place him above Crosby. I value Crosby's all round play, leadership and being a proven winner higher.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Yes this sums up everything perfectly because it’s that cut and dry….

“He’s just more complete”….how? Why? No reason…he’s Crosby. He wins. That’s all that matters.

Crosby is just better all around, has always been much better defensively too, clutch when it matters too,

McDavid is freaking 9 seasons into his career..... why not let him EARN his place above Crosby or other greats.?

Cups matter too. if he never wins one, it wont be all the trophies he won that people will remember, it will be not winning a cup

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Try to justify Sid over McJesus without writing 10 paragraphs challenge! Start now!

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Try to justify Sid over McJesus without writing 10 paragraphs challenge! Start now!

not that much of a downgrade offensively but better in all other aspects of the game including being a true leader. guys a winner

now that doesnt mean McDavid will never pass him, he very well can but I think it's a little premature to place a cupless McDavid over Crosby only 9 seasons into his career.

 

[edog37]

So we went from “winning and “leading”, to “if you want it done, you pick Crosby.”

They’re the same thing. It’s not that hard.

Try to justify Sid over McJesus without writing 10 paragraphs challenge! Start now!

There’s nothing to justify. One led his team to multiple championships & came up big in big moments. The other collects regular season participation trophies.

 

[PainForShane]

It was a chat GPT copy/paste. Either way, what a weird direction to go down with a reply.

Actually when scoring went through the roof a lot of people predicted he would hit 150. I remember 100 being split for people, as there were tons of believers since he was feasting on crappy canadian teams for 56 games.

That's legitimately hilarious. lmao.

The funny thing about this I too used chatgpt during this convo, as a sanity check after norris nick went out of his way to badly misquote my summary of my thoughts however many pages ago that was. I'd written a relatively long post saying my point of view that Crosby / McDavid were both extremely good players so similar tier (used Bezos and Musk as an analogy wrt rich ppl), when norrisnick tried to summarize he wrote 9 independent statements, 6 of which were straight up nonsense (some of these 6 points I'd actively been arguing against).

So I was like, 'hmmm maybe my point wasn't clear as I'd thought' and asked ChatGPT to summarize the post, it did so almost perfectly. Unlike norrisnick who wrote 6 lines of straight up nonsense in an attempt to summarize. Just as importantly it appears as though he believes that the nonsense he wrote accurately summarized my point of view, I've since disengaged with him (hence why I've decided to not tag him here).

Anyway, imo your chatgpt copypaste was one of the more well structured posts in this particlar thread. Which is legit hilarious given I don't think anyone else (other than you) actually knew it was straight up written by an AI. I certainly didn't and was even tempted to write, "good post" because it was such a succinct summary.

Well done, sir. The meta-argument you are implying here is one worth thinking about.

*** To those not sure what the meaning of that final sentence is, if you ask chat gpt, it will accurately explain the meaning of that sentence ***