Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[norrisnick]

2006-07: Crosby led league in points. OV 4th in goals and 13th in points. Advantage Crosby.

2007-08: OV has GOAT level scoring finishes and nearly sweeps awards. Crosby misses regular season games. Both finish with nearly identical PPG. Crosby leads team to cup finals. Advantage was slightly towards OV after this year, but that is when the debate heated up. Now we have a 1A/1B officially, fans choose sides, and they effectively 'saved the league'.

2008-09: Malkin, OV, and Crosby finish 1,2,3 in the scoring race, well above the rest of the league. Once again nearly identical PPG. Crosby and Malkin celebrate cup win while beating OV on the way. Malkin takes home Smythe. Conversation shifts to a 'Big 3' in the league. 1A/1B/1C.

2009-10: The Sedins peaked with Burrows along with Vancouver. They take home Art Ross. Crosby/OV finish neck and neck in the scoring race. Crosby beats OV for the Rocket, and now looks an equal goal scorer. Big 3 case weakens for Malkin. Crosby/OV firmly a 1A/1B.

2010-11: Crosby seemingly hits another level. His goal scoring picks up where it left off the season before. He gets 32 in 41 games. Unreal PPG lead. Gets hurt. OV has a weak season. Crosby starts to get a slight lean, but still 1A/1B.

2011-12: Crosby barely plays. 22 games. OV has down year with coaching change. Finishes 5th and 38th in goal scoring and points respectively. Malkin tops the charts. 'Big 3' talk heats up, Malkin fans come out of woodwork. 1A/1B/1C.

2012-13: Crosby leaves where he left off. Seems to have hit this next level with his goal scoring, and was lapping the league before he goes down with injury. Plays 25% less games than OV and ties him in scoring still. OV takes home Hart due to Crosby's missed games, and we are back to a fun 1A/1B, with a slight lean towards Crosby.

2013-14: Crosby leaves no doubt that he did hit another level. Wins Art Ross by 20% over 2nd place. Captures almost every vote for Hart. OV gets rocket, but doesn't finish top in points. Crosby also took home gold in Olympics with Golden Goal. Last season and injury riddled peak years for Crosby feel vindicated. He is better than OV now, who doesn't look like a top 2 player in the league. De Facto number 1.

2014-15: Crosby and OV both have regression years. They look older and in the 2nd half of their careers. The pack has caught up. However, they are still at the top with it. 1A/1B with other players having outside arguments.

2015-16: More of same. OV captures Rocket, finishes 15th in league scoring. Crosby 3rd in scoring and wins Smythe. He and OV still at the top of the league, but other players have firmly caught up. 1A/1B with other players having outside arguments, especially Kane that year. Crosby wins head to head battle in playoffs.

2016-17: McDavid rookie year, captures Art Ross. Crosby finishes 2nd in points though, and steals the Rocket for a 2nd time against OV. Also takes home Smythe. Crosby looked at as 1A/1B now with McDavid, and a passing of the torch season.

'05-'06 - Ovechkin finished ahead in the Hart
'06-'07 - Crosby finished ahead in the Hart
'07-'08 - Ovechkin finished ahead in the Hart
'08-'09 - Ovechkin finished ahead in the Hart
'09-'10 - Ovechkin finished ahead in the Hart
'10-'11 - Ovechkin finished ahead in the Hart
'11-'12 - f***ed this up, neither got Hart votes here.
'12-'13 - Ovechkin finished ahead in the Hart
'13-'14 - Crosby finished ahead in the Hart
'14-'15 - Ovechkin finished ahead in the Hart
'15-'16 - Crosby finished ahead in the Hart
'16-'17 - McDavid finishes ahead of both for the Hart
'17-'18 - McDavid finishes ahead of both for the Hart
;18-'19 - Crosby finished ahead in the Hart
;19-'20 - McDavid finishes ahead of both for the Hart
'20-'21 - McDavid finishes ahead of both for the Hart
'21-'22 - McDavid finishes ahead of both for the Hart
'22-'23 - McDavid finishes ahead of both for the Hart
'23-'24 - McDavid finishes ahead of both for the Hart

There is no way to squeeze a decade of Crosby between Ovechkin and McDavid.

Edit- fixed '11-'12

 

[GreatGonzo]

Singlehandledly skull f***ing Flyers the past 18 years.

What does that have to do with anything?…

 

[Video Nasty]

What does that have to do with anything?…

I think it’s something along the lines of the Flyers being the only series win the Penguins have since Crosby exited his 20s.

 

[Fourier]

Sounds good and thanks for a well written summary of why you believe what you believe. I disagree with some of this in that I do think leading your team to championships is not insignificant, like you said we don't know what goes on the dressing room but in my view winning a championship does matter, that's the main motivation for most of these guys. And one guy got his team across the line multiple times while the other hasn't yet, that much is undeniable.

Put a different way, to me the above argument is a bit like minimizing Tom Brady's leadership ability just because we don't actually know what goes inside the locker room -- I mean, sure we don't know what went on in the room but we do know that Crosby / Brady were able to win multiple championships, part of that is probably due to some aspect of leadership. And if Brady is on a different tier because of his championships (many would argue this), I feel that that also applies to Sid.

Also there is a stark difference between Crosby's role in his championship teams (ie core member and Captain of the team) compared to someone like Maroon or Phil Kessel in his later cup years. So I don't think the Maroon comparison makes any sense tbh.

***

But yeah, reasonable take even though I disagree with some of your argument for the reasons mentioned above. Thx for sharing and thx also for being reasonable about things, much appreciated over here

I will make a couple of comments but I appreciate your answer.

First off winning is important. In fact as you state it is what drives all great players.

Hockey and football are completely different sports as far as the role of individuals. I coached football for years and there is no analog of a quarterback in hockey. It is a position that is actually fairly unique in pro sports. The QB in football has far greater impact on a team's winning or losing than would any hockey player including a goalie. It is also a position that demands "leadership" since almost by definition every other player on the offense relies heavily on the QB. And a team with a generationally good QB has a much better chance of winning it all than would a generational player on a hockey team.

Of course there is a difference between Crosby's role and Maroon's in the Pens winning. The whole point of the Marron example is that what is most important in judging players is how they impact the outcome of games rather than the solely the outcome of those games. Was Crosby ever better in the playoffs than McDavid has been over the last three years. If not, than to give him additional credit for the three cup wins over McDavid seems questionable.

 

[BraveCanadian]

If Skinner stops the second goal and Bouchard scores on the shot he barely missed on, does that make McDavid a better player???

To many people here, yes.

There is no logic to it, they just have a binary world view between winner and loser.

Crossing my fingers that McDavid will win a ring and take away this last illogical stand and make them all eat a lot of crow.. cause that will be fun.

There is no way to squeeze a decade of Crosby between Ovechkin and McDavid.

To be fair there are some years in there that Crosby was still considered the best player in the world but unfortunately he wasn’t playing enough to prove it in Hart voting.

A decade worth is probably stretching it though.

 

[norrisnick]

To be fair there are some years in there that Crosby was still considered the best player in the world but unfortunately he wasn’t playing enough to prove it in Hart voting.

A decade worth is probably stretching it though.

That list is intended to draw attention to the folly of said consideration. The three year stretch where Crosby was apparently a god among men, Ovechkin finished ahead of him in Hart voting (one of the seasons neither got a vote). Right after a three year run of Ovechkin Hart voting superiority.

If you use the mental gymnastics needed to support Crosby's claim as the best player for a generation, but apply said logic to Ovechkin and McDavid, there is not a point in time where Crosby should ever be considered the best.


'05-'06 through '14-'15 Crosby finished ahead of Ovechkin in Hart voting twice. Ovechkin finished ahead 7 times.
'15-'16 through '23-24 Crosby finished ahead of McDavid in Hart voting twice. McDavid finished ahead 7 times.

The aura of Price is one of the few that are even sillier than the aura of Crosby. Price won the Vezina exactly once in his career and was a finalist exactly one other time. With exactly one, non-rookie post season All Star honor. Yet he's the best goalie since Hasek or whatever nonsense. It's a cult of fandom that's completely divorced from what's going on on the ice.

 

[wetcoast]

37yo Recchi had more points than anyone not named Bedard. Palffy in his 42 games would have still been 3rd on the Hawks in points. Gonchars 58pts would still be 2nd on the Hawks.

They’re not comparable supporting cast.

I gave my view Crosby was driving the bus there m and was better than Bedard (who I really like) so we will agree to disagree here as to me the difference isn't all that great as I showed at ES.

 

[Frank Drebin]

As a habs fan, can’t agree more with the price comparison. Both he and Crosby get way more credit than they deserve

Guy was the best goalie in the league for the last half of 13~14, all of 14-15, and the first 16 or however many games he played of 15-16, and his playoff run at the end of his career


He had a couple very good seasons
10-11
16-17

Outside of those seasons he was either average or bad, and some habs fans refer to him as “the beat of his generation “

Crosbys aura is even more smelly

 

[Frank Drebin]

To many people here, yes.

There is no logic to it, they just have a binary world view between winner and loser.

Crossing my fingers that McDavid will win a ring and take away this last illogical stand and make them all eat a lot of crow.. cause that will be fun.



To be fair there are some years in there that Crosby was still considered the best player in the world but unfortunately he wasn’t playing enough to prove it in Hart voting.

A decade worth is probably stretching it though.

If they can’t admit it now they won’t admit it even when mcdavid wins

They’ll move on to 3 cups and a gold medal while dissecting mvdavids second conn smythe as irrelevant and selfish

It’s goofy, but it’s great that they’re willing to put themselves out there to be mocked for an eternity

 

[wetcoast]

View attachment 897383

So helpful....kids these days eh?

As a habs fan, can’t agree more with the price comparison. Both he and Crosby get way more credit than they deserve

Guy was the best goalie in the league for the last half of 13~14, all of 14-15, and the first 16 or however many games he played of 15-16, and his playoff run at the end of his career


He had a couple very good seasons
10-11
16-17

Outside of those seasons he was either average or bad, and some habs fans refer to him as “the beat of his generation “

Crosbys aura is even more smelly

This sounds like some complete garbage in that what seasons was crosby average or bad?

Price is probably going into the HHOF with many of his contemporaries probably having better overall NHL resumes how is crosby comparable here?

 

[Video Nasty]

That list is intended to draw attention to the folly of said consideration. The three year stretch where Crosby was apparently a god among men, Ovechkin finished ahead of him in Hart voting (one of the seasons neither got a vote). Right after a three year run of Ovechkin Hart voting superiority.

If you use the mental gymnastics needed to support Crosby's claim as the best player for a generation, but apply said logic to Ovechkin and McDavid, there is not a point in time where Crosby should ever be considered the best.


'05-'06 through '14-'15 Crosby finished ahead of Ovechkin in Hart voting twice. Ovechkin finished ahead 7 times.
'15-'16 through '23-24 Crosby finished ahead of McDavid in Hart voting twice. McDavid finished ahead 7 times.

The aura of Price is one of the few that are even sillier than the aura of Crosby. Price won the Vezina exactly once in his career and was a finalist exactly one other time. With exactly one, non-rookie post season All Star honor. Yet he's the best goalie since Hasek or whatever nonsense. It's a cult of fandom that's completely divorced from what's going on on the ice.

The fact that Crosby needs so much fabrication when telling his story should clue people in that he was never the best player in the world for such a long stretch as what they claim.

Unfortunately, it’s not good enough for his rabid supporters that he still headlines the group of eight or so players in contention for what is now #6 all-time. I guess because his reign at #5 was so short-lived or if one prefers, it’s about to end within the next season or two, it makes them want to cling to whatever remaining straws are left.

The guy was feared to have very little career left in 2012. Instead he has been excellent to very good for another dozen and as of now, still counting. He seems likely to end up inside the top 30 for most games played all-time. He could play more games than Lemieux before his first retirement and Orr combined. He could play as many games as Gretzky.

Sure, he missed out on some trophies and points during his age 23-25 years, but when it is enough for some of these people and why do they have to invent, embellish, and try to put him where he doesn’t quite belong?

So helpful....kids these days eh?

 

[Frank Drebin]

So helpful....kids these days eh?


This sounds like some complete garbage in that what seasons was crosby average or bad?

Price is probably going into the HHOF with many of his contemporaries probably having better overall NHL resumes how is crosby comparable here?

Both price and Crosby benefit from this mythical aura that really isn’t backed up by anything

The clear cut best player in a generation wins 2 hart trophies in 20 years? Gtfo

 

[Arthur Morgan]

If Skinner stops the second goal and Bouchard scores on the shot he barely missed on, does that make McDavid a better player???

I already said McDavid is the better player offensively but that doesnt mean he's over Crosby already. and if McDavid won it would help his conversation alot more.

 

[PainForShane]

I will make a couple of comments but I appreciate your answer.

First off winning is important. In fact as you state it is what drives all great players.

Hockey and football are completely different sports as far as the role of individuals. I coached football for years and there is no analog of a quarterback in hockey. It is a position that is actually fairly unique in pro sports. The QB in football has far greater impact on a team's winning or losing than would any hockey player including a goalie. It is also a position that demands "leadership" since almost by definition every other player on the offense relies heavily on the QB. And a team with a generationally good QB has a much better chance of winning it all than would a generational player on a hockey team.

Of course there is a difference between Crosby's role and Maroon's in the Pens winning. The whole point of the Marron example is that what is most important in judging players is how they impact the outcome of games rather than the solely the outcome of those games. Was Crosby ever better in the playoffs than McDavid has been over the last three years. If not, than to give him additional credit for the three cup wins over McDavid seems questionable.

A few things: Yes a QB in football requires more of what people generally refer to as 'leadership' than a Captain of a hockey team. It's the same idea though. But, if you want to say that the QB requires such a higher degree of leadership that the analogy doesn't really apply -- I mean I get what you're saying, I made a similar style of argument to dismiss Maroon. I disagree with the application of this idea but it's definitely a fair take. Either way I'm making this argument for Sid (and not Connor) and yes, like you said a QB also does require more of what we traditionally call leadership.

With regard to a generational type of player on a hockey team winning, I think it would depend on the team. I have Hasek squarely in my top 5 all time (below Gretz, positions 2-5 are interchangeable to me), and the fact that he didn't win a cup with Buffalo doesn't really bother me, Buffalo's roster was terrible most of that time and like you said one person can't win a cup by himself.

***

Edmonton's had a pretty good team though.

Aside from all the offensive firepower (Leon, Hyman, RNH etc) they have a decent bottom six with guys like Foegele, Derek Ryan, Perry... and then when you pick up someone like Ekholm so Darnell Nurse no longer has to play top pair... I mean the D corps is definitely not bad on paper. And standings-wise they've flirted with or acheived 50 wins in each of the last 3 seasons (on pace for 4 during the COVID season).

Actually I was curious so did their regular season points percentage from 2020-2024 (four seasons, started 2020-2021 season), in 302 games the Oilers are 7th in the league (0.644) ahead of Vegas and Tampa. That paces on average to 106 points in each regular season. That is a GOOD team. McDavid has had a GOOD TEAM these past four years at least.

***

Regardless, if McDavid had scored 2 points in a winner take all game 7 in the Stanley Cup Finals, they probably win the cup. I don't think unresonable to ask someone to score those points when they're most needed, esp someone who's the best offensive player in the game today and is also being argued to be one of the very best players to ever play. He wasn't able to make a difference on the scoreboard in the most meaningful game in his career. To your point, I'd also argue he didn't impact the game much if at all over the first 2 or 2.5 periods.

***

If McDavid ever gets there, I'll be happy for him. He hasn't gotten there yet in my opinion, because he hasn't won yet. We're talking about whether he's an all-time great more specifically an entire tier above Sidney Crosby.

In my opinion, he doesn't get there if he doesn't lead his team to at least one championship. Especially considering it's actually a good team that he's on.

 

[GreatGonzo]

A few things: Yes a QB in football requires more of what people generally refer to as 'leadership' than a Captain of a hockey team. It's the same idea though. But, if you want to say that the QB requires such a higher degree of leadership that the analogy doesn't really apply -- I mean I get what you're saying, I made a similar style of argument to dismiss Maroon. I disagree with the application of this idea but it's definitely a fair take. Either way I'm making this argument for Sid (and not Connor) and yes, like you said a QB also does require more of what we traditionally call leadership.

With regard to a generational type of player on a hockey team winning, I think it would depend on the team. I have Hasek squarely in my top 5 all time (below Gretz, positions 2-5 are interchangeable to me), and the fact that he didn't win a cup with Buffalo doesn't really bother me, Buffalo's roster was terrible most of that time and like you said one person can't win a cup by himself.

***

Edmonton's had a pretty good team though.

Aside from all the offensive firepower (Leon, Hyman, RNH etc) they have a decent bottom six with guys like Foegele, Derek Ryan, Perry... and then when you pick up someone like Ekholm so Darnell Nurse no longer has to play top pair... I mean the D corps is definitely not bad on paper. And standings-wise they've flirted with or acheived 50 wins in each of the last 3 seasons (on pace for 4 during the COVID season).

Actually I was curious so did their regular season points percentage from 2020-2024 (four seasons, started 2020-2021 season), in 302 games the Oilers are 7th in the league (0.644) ahead of Vegas and Tampa. That paces on average to 106 points in each regular season. That is a GOOD team. McDavid has had a GOOD TEAM these past four years at least.

***

Regardless, if McDavid had scored 2 points in a winner take all game 7 in the Stanley Cup Finals, they probably win the cup. I don't think unresonable to ask someone to score those points when they're most needed, esp someone who's the best offensive player in the game today and is also being argued to be one of the very best players to ever play. He wasn't able to make a difference on the scoreboard in the most meaningful game in his career. To your point, I'd also argue he didn't impact the game much if at all over the first 2 or 2.5 periods.

***

If McDavid ever gets there, I'll be happy for him. He hasn't gotten there yet in my opinion, because he hasn't won yet. We're talking about whether he's an all-time great more specifically an entire tier above Sidney Crosby.

In my opinion, he doesn't get there if he doesn't lead his team to at least one championship. Especially considering it's actually a good team that he's on.

Yet, Crosby didn’t and couldn’t do that….so why hold a different AND higher standard for McDavid. Crosby went scoreless in games 5-7(you know the meaningful ones). And barely played in game 7….and they STILL won. If that’s not an obvious difference in then team surrounding them, rather than the individual…then I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Whatever this means exactly, McDavid didn’t have the luxury of sitting on the bench in a Game 7 for most of the game, like Crosby did after a knee injury, which saw him exit the clinching game of his first Cup win early in the second period.

Fortunately, for Crosby, his teammates put in the work, finished the job, and he didn’t remain Cupless (and Conn Smythe-less) until 2016.

Also fortunately for Crosby, the mass hypnosis has made the collective hockey world forget this, as well as not bothering to shake the hands of his opponents until well after most of them exited to their dressing room.

Lmao the handshake line again

 

[PainForShane]

Lmao the handshake line again

Maybe Video Nasty is also secretly a Leafs fan. Can't get respect if you don't even shake hands at all

 

[Ogelthorpe]

No it wasn't.

The 91 Pens had 9 hall of famers (including Jagr), I highly doubt the 2024 Oilers will come anywhere close to that. McDavid and Draisaitl sure, possibly Bouchard and then Perry (but he was a very minor contributor to this years team).

Name those 9 HOF players.
I’ll name a few, starting with Jagr….. who was an 18 year old rookie that year, not even close to prime Jagr. He scored 57 points that season. They also had Bryan Trottier…… a way past his prime, late 30s Brian Trottier. He scored 28 points that season. Let’s not forget Joey Mullen and his 39 points.

Yeah, Lemieux, Recchi, Coffey, and Barrasso were prime. But Coffey only had 11 points in the post season. Kevin Stevens, who isn’t in the HOF was 3rd on the team in playoff scoring 11 points behind Mario, and he played 1 more game than Mario.

Yeah, it’s easy to say he had all these hall of famers, but add the context of where they were in their careers.

 

[Video Nasty]

Lmao the handshake line again

Maybe Video Nasty is also secretly a Leafs fan. Can't get respect if you don't even shake hands at all

Just sick of the hypocrisy.

 

[wetcoast]

The fact that Crosby needs so much fabrication when telling his story should clue people in that he was never the best player in the world for such a long stretch as what they claim.

Exactly what fabrication do you speak of here?

Most points in the elague since he entered, by quite a bit as well.

Diddo playoff points.

19 straight years PPG+ unmatched by any player in history.

Captained 3 SC champions in salary cap age

Unfortunately, it’s not good enough for his rabid supporters that he still headlines the group of eight or so players in contention for what is now #6 all-time. I guess because his reign at #5 was so short-lived or if one prefers, it’s about to end within the next season or two, it makes them want to cling to whatever remaining straws are left.

I'd say that his argument for 5th all time (see above) is really strong compared to any other challengers, McDavid included as of now.

Could McDavid pass him sure, but it's going to take some time.

The guy was feared to have very little career left in 2012. Instead he has been excellent to very good for another dozen and as of now, still counting.

Excellent to very good is a weird way to describe a player who since the 11-12 season is the top scorer in the league with 987 points don't you think?

Also since 11-12 when according to you he has been excellent to very good he has Hart finishes of

1,2,2,2,4,5,9

As well as 5 top 10 Selke finishes.

Add in 2 Conn Smythe trophies and being 5th in playoff scoring over the same time period.

He seems likely to end up inside the top 30 for most games played all-time. He could play more games than Lemieux before his first retirement and Orr combined. He could play as many games as Gretzky.

Sure, he missed out on some trophies and points during his age 23-25 years, but when it is enough for some of these people and why do they have to invent, embellish, and try to put him where he doesn’t quite belong?



View attachment 897411

I'd counter the opposite is true that the naysayers are embellishing or distorting things here as all the above that I have stated is 100% true.

Both price and Crosby benefit from this mythical aura that really isn’t backed up by anything

The clear cut best player in a generation wins 2 hart trophies in 20 years? Gtfo

See above and the "he wins only 2 Harts trophies" is cherry picking and intellectual dishonesty at it's finest here folks.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Meanwhile, Crosby has more “great moments”, than almost any other player in NHL history.

- Golden Goal in 2010

- Insurance goal on a breakaway vs Lundqvist to seal the gold medal in 2014 Olympics

- Comeback goal vs Islanders in 2011 when some people thought he would never be able to play again due to head/neck injuries.

- Assist on the game-winning goal vs San Jose in 2016 after he told Letang they were going to connect for the biggest goal of the series (well documented)

- Youngest captain to win the cup (at the time)

- Historic game 7 performance vs the Capitals in 2009. That series showcased the 2 best players of his generation going at it all series long, as they went into a must win game 7 for their legacy. Crosby then scored his iconic “put the game away” goal by stripping Ovechkin the puck.

- Calling the play at the faceoff on the OT goal in game 2 in the 2016 SCF vs San Jose, which put Pittsburgh ahead 2-0 in the series.

Details:

How Sidney Crosby ‘called shot’ on Penguins' Game 2 OT goal

“I call 25 faceoffs a game. So I got 24 wrong tonight,” said Crosby.

ca.sports.yahoo.com

- Scoring the OT goal in the conference finals (game 2) vs Tampa Bay in 2016, when Pittsburgh was trailing 1-0. That was a decisive moment that might’ve forever changed his career trajectory. If Pittsburgh goes down 2-0, they probably lose the series and Pittsburgh might not win the cup in 2017 either.

- Assisting on the game 7 double overtime series clinching goal vs Ottawa in the conference finals, in 2017, with great edge work to gain separation.

His portfolio is second to none. Truly a once in a lifetime player. It’s a shame some people can’t appreciate his greatness and the way he put his mark on the history of the game.

Some of this is such a stretch you had to have pulled a hamstring.

1. Anything international is voided when comparing to McDavid since he hasn’t had a chance to play in any of them

2. Notice how you only have two single game 7 game listed there?

3. Assuming because he scored a goal in game 2 of a series is the whole reason they won the series is hilarious

4. Listing “calling a play on a faceoff” on a list of legendary performances is truly something else

 

[Jericho111091]

I'd say McDavid is better, but not in a different tier. I'd have them both in that 5-10 all time range

 

[Fourier]

I already said McDavid is the better player offensively but that doesnt mean he's over Crosby already. and if McDavid won it would help his conversation alot more.

I have no problem if you would pick Crosby over McDavid even if I disagree with your position. I do have an issue with placing any significant importance in team accomplishments in comparing the two for reasons I have stated in other posts. But in the end I doubt I will change any minds in that respect.

 

[PainForShane]

I have no problem if you would pick Crosby over McDavid even if I disagree with your position. I do have an issue with placing any significant importance in team accomplishments in comparing the two for reasons I have stated in other posts. But in the end I doubt I will change any minds in that respect.

There's more nuance to it though.

I think in general Crosby contributes more to winning (away from scoring) than McDavid does -- and like you said in your post these contributions apart from the scoresheet do matter. I don't think anyone is arguing that McDavid isn't the better individual offensive player in isolation.

For me, Pittsburgh's team accomplishments are partly due to Crosby's consistent non-offensive contributions. For instance helping his undrafted linemates be better than they would've been without him (not only helps the team in terms of overall strength / ability to fit under the cap but allows someone like Kessel to be on the third line which creates a crazy lineup mismatch for instance), 200 foot game, clutchness in terms of many games incl golden goal, we've already discussed leadership, etc.

The key though isn't JUST that Crosby won. It's that he did a whole lot of stuff away from just scoring (to help the team win), and then the team won as well. Imo there is probably some element of causality in here. Put a different way, the winning itself in my opinion is at least partly a lagging indicator (ie proof) of all the other stuff Crosby did to help his team win.

***

Like you said neither one of us is going to change the other's mind I don't think. But I do think both our takes are reasonable, we're talking about two all-time greats here. If you're starting a team or starting a rebuild you pick either of these guys and you would be very, very, very fortunate to be able to do so. With either one of them.

Sincere thx for sharing your point of view without including nonsense. This type of discussion has been in short supply particularly in this thread.

 

[Video Nasty]

Excellent to very good is a weird way to describe a player who since the 11-12 season is the top scorer in the league with 987 points don't you think?

Also since 11-12 when according to you he has been excellent to very good he has Hart finishes of

1,2,2,2,4,5,9

As well as 5 top 10 Selke finishes.

Add in 2 Conn Smythe trophies and being 5th in playoff scoring over the same time period.

Why is it weird? Because I’m not talking about how he “captured my heart?”

Excellent to very good is reasonable. He was excellent from 2012-2013 through about 2018-2019 and he’s been very good since then. Considering what you lot say about McDavid, I’m actually being Video Kindness when it comes to describing Crosby this way, since he’s a total loser over the past seven seasons, winning just a single postseason series. According to you guys any way, right?