Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

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CupHolders

Really Fries My Bananas!
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I think in many ways this shows why you do not need to lock up fourth line players like Lou did with Clutterbuck.
Nah, Clutterbuck is better than Fasching. They’re only in the same conversation as a comparable because Fasching plays a prototypical fourth liner game. And has the actual size to play it as opposed to the usual waifs like…

Shane Prince, Justin Papineau, Steve Tambellini, Andy Hilbert, Keiffer Bellows ;)…. To me, these are dime-in-a-dozen players.

Fasching is a legitimate fourth line pro though. But again let’s keep it in context, where not talking about long term commitments. Just one-way vs two-way contract under the cap burial amount. Much like Hutton was already mentioned.

When we talk about bottom-six, do not pay for past production.

But in the case of Clutterbuck, did Lou pay for past production? He only gave him a two year deal with a decrease of half his previous contract. I feel a lot of people forget that all members of that line have taken pay cuts from their previous deals.
 

MJF

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Nah, Clutterbuck is better than Fasching. They’re only in the same conversation as a comparable because Fasching plays a prototypical fourth liner game. And has the actual size to play it as opposed to the usual waifs like…

Shane Prince, Justin Papineau, Steve Tambellini, Andy Hilbert, Keiffer Bellows ;)…. To me, these are dime-in-a-dozen players.

Fasching is a legitimate fourth line pro though. But again let’s keep it in context, where not talking about long term commitments. Just one-way vs two-way contract under the cap burial amount. Much like Hutton was already mentioned.



But in the case of Clutterbuck, did Lou pay for past production? He only gave him a two year deal with a decrease of half his previous contract. I feel a lot of people forget that all members of that line have taken pay cuts from their previous deals.
The entire 4th line’s current contracts are all based on past performance. Martin because of the 2019 playoffs, Cizikas and Clutterbuck I don’t even know the parameters they were paid for. They were given term in exchange for lower dollars.
 

CupHolders

Really Fries My Bananas!
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The entire 4th line’s current contracts are all based on past performance. Martin because of the 2019 playoffs, Cizikas and Clutterbuck I don’t even know the parameters they were paid for. They were given term in exchange for lower dollars.
I mean, however we want look at how they got those deals… I’m fine with them getting them.

Much better than saving that spot for the likes of players like Dal Colle… Otto Koivula is quickly falling into that category too.
 

MJF

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yeah I think we can go ahead and give Fasching a 1 way contract
Yup I’m sold!

I mean, however we want look at how they got those deals… I’m fine with them getting them.

Much better than saving that spot for the likes of players like Dal Colle… Otto Koivula is quickly falling into that category too.
Pretty slim pickings, eh?

Oddly enough I think Otto has had his best stretch on the Islanders his last 3 or 4 games and it still won’t be good enough.
 
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CupHolders

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Yup I’m sold!


Pretty slim pickings, eh?

Oddly enough I think Otto has had his best stretch on the Islanders his last 3 or 4 games and it still won’t be good enough.
I’ve always felt the key to handling that fourth line was letting their replacements earn their spots from them. Which is why I was ok with them extended at a lower yearly cap hit.

Players like Durandeau, Holmstrom look like possible bottom six replacements. Koivula HAS looked better, but still seems like a lot of ground for him to make up.
 
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crasherino

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The entire 4th line’s current contracts are all based on past performance. Martin because of the 2019 playoffs, Cizikas and Clutterbuck I don’t even know the parameters they were paid for. They were given term in exchange for lower dollars.
They were pretty much given loyalty retirement packages. The kind of deals that can be buried in the AHL or - more likely - on LTIR, which is likely what will happen to Clutterbuck next year if he continues to remain banged up. I'm guessing that their retirements will happen before their deals expire and they'll continue collecting their paychecks but the team will get cap relief.
 

The Real JT

Draft and develop. UFAs like no taxes/original 6
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They were pretty much given loyalty retirement packages. The kind of deals that can be buried in the AHL or - more likely - on LTIR, which is likely what will happen to Clutterbuck next year if he continues to remain banged up. I'm guessing that their retirements will happen before their deals expire and they'll continue collecting their paychecks but the team will get cap relief.
You have a fair point regarding the ability to bury the contracts but their presence alone is an obstacle for our prospects to be given a chance at the NHL. Additionally, if we were to sign other available low cost UFAs to fill that slot those players at least have the potential to outperform their contract which is something that players like Martin and Clutterbuck won’t do.
 

CupHolders

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You have a fair point regarding the ability to bury the contracts but their presence alone is an obstacle for our prospects to be given a chance at the NHL. Additionally, if we were to sign other available low cost UFAs to fill that slot those players at least have the potential to outperform their contract which is something that players like Martin and Clutterbuck won’t do.
But it actually hasn’t been a detriment, because no one has earned those spots. Durandeau is close and will likely get a longer look next year. William DuFour is not a good option for the fourth line. His development would be better served lines three and up.
 

MJF

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But it actually hasn’t been a detriment, because no one has earned those spots. Durandeau is close and will likely get a longer look next year. William DuFour is not a good option for the fourth line. His development would be better served lines three and up.
There’s hasn’t been a serious competition in camp for any forward spot since MDC-JHS. Lou committed to everyone on this roster and it was a done deal before the season started.
 

crasherino

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You have a fair point regarding the ability to bury the contracts but their presence alone is an obstacle for our prospects to be given a chance at the NHL. Additionally, if we were to sign other available low cost UFAs to fill that slot those players at least have the potential to outperform their contract which is something that players like Martin and Clutterbuck won’t do.
I don't disagree. My biggest issue with Lou isn't any one move he's made - in every specific instance, what he's done is defensible. Its more of the collective approach that I take issue. One 30+ contract, two....even three is ok. But our team is now rife with guys over 30. At some point that's gonna bite us in the ass. Likewise, I've got no major problem with rewarding loyal grinder types to a low cost deal. But when you look at Martin and Clutterbuck and Johnston and (to a lesser extent but still counts) Cizikas, you are limiting your flexibility with respect to roster spots. Each of those guys individually doesn't hamstring us, but having all those guys take up spots prohibits us from filling out our roster with upside guys, like you suggest.

I like(d) Clutter and would always take him on my team. But I'm not sure that move made the most sense for our squad long term. Same with the other guys. Its doubly important when you have relatively little organizational depth. Fasching may not be a full time starter, but we're kinda lucky that we have him and he's doing what he's doing. Cause we don't got much else.
 
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CupHolders

Really Fries My Bananas!
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There’s hasn’t been a serious competition in camp for any forward spot since MDC-JHS. Lou committed to everyone on this roster and it was a done deal before the season started.
Ok. But that mostly speaks to other issues that one could criticize management on… such as not having enough quality youthful depth that could provide a reason to push those vets out.

Regardless of what commitments were made contractually to Clutterbuck, I still don’t see it as some kind of artificial suppression of another deserving player.

I personally would’ve preferred Clutterbuck to be signed on a year-to-year deal. But I still don’t see any major issue with his two year deal. Even now with him injured.

The Isles are still under the cap. The injury would’ve provided LTIR cap relief if it WAS needed. Isles pro scouts did a great job of identifying Fasching as a possible depth call up. Durandeau, Holmstrom all look like promising replacements for the PK and bottom six. Still some prospects like Liukas who may also fit that role.

At the end of the day, I just do not see the extension to all three being as detrimental to the team as some feared it would be. They have proven to remain useful players and their contracts are easy enough to drop if anyone forced their way on… Bellows, Koivula? That could/should have been the ones to do so. But they failed.

Ultimately, the big hinderance of this lineup is that Wahlstrom or Beauvillier didn’t become consistent top six producers and Bailey didn’t age more like Mats Zuccarello or at least Zach Parise for that matter.
 
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doublechili

For all intensive purposes, your nuts
Apr 11, 2006
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I don't disagree. My biggest issue with Lou isn't any one move he's made - in every specific instance, what he's done is defensible. Its more of the collective approach that I take issue. One 30+ contract, two....even three is ok. But our team is now rife with guys over 30. At some point that's gonna bite us in the ass. Likewise, I've got no major problem with rewarding loyal grinder types to a low cost deal. But when you look at Martin and Clutterbuck and Johnston and (to a lesser extent but still counts) Cizikas, you are limiting your flexibility with respect to roster spots. Each of those guys individually doesn't hamstring us, but having all those guys take up spots prohibits us from filling out our roster with upside guys, like you suggest.

I like(d) Clutter and would always take him on my team. But I'm not sure that move made the most sense for our squad long term. Same with the other guys. Its doubly important when you have relatively little organizational depth. Fasching may not be a full time starter, but we're kinda lucky that we have him and he's doing what he's doing. Cause we don't got much else.
I don't see a huge problem with the 30+ contingent on the Isles. I see one "bad" contract for this season, and that's Bailey. But his $5M goes away after next season when he's 34 (if he can't be made to go away sooner), and Holmstrom is a built-in replacement. Re: others:

Lee: he's playing up to his $7M salary right now at 32, and he has 3 more years so he'll end at 35. I could see him still scoring 20+ goals at that point.
Nelson: he's playing above his $6M salary at 31, and he has 2 more years so he'll end at 33. If he's still healthy and productive, maybe you re-sign him (but being very careful about the salary/term). Nelson plays a style that could see good productivity to 35 and beyond.
Palmieri: I might like him more than most, but I'm okay with what he provides at 32 for $5M. He's a guy you hope is more valuable in the playoffs than the regular season. He has 2 more years after this and will end at 34. With his size and style of play, maybe you look to trade him in his final season.
JGP: Tough to gauge him right now, but the whole package he brings seems worth $5M at 30 to fill the important 3C position, PK and win faceoffs. When his contract ends in 3 years at 33, you probably move on.
Cizikas: Mr. Intangibles is worth his $2.5m at 32, IMO. His contract may be an issue by the end when he's 36, but then again it's "only" $2.5M.
Clutterbuck & Martin: probably worth $1.75M and $1.5M for this and next season just for intangibles and "the room", and Martin has been really good of late. We'll see what happens during the offseason and if they continue playing (CC anyway), but their cap hits are in the 2% of total cap space area - not a huge deal.
Mayfield, Valamov, Parise: we'll see what happens with the UFAs. If Parise is willing to sign the same deal, why not, right? Would Varly come back at a pay cut? Would Mayfield sign at a discount, maybe in exchange for an extra bit of term? We'll see.

If I were GM, the plan would be to move on from most of these guys as they get to the end of their contracts. I'd be interested in re-signing Parise now for sure. I'd also like to re-sign Mayfield and Varlamov if they'd agree to reasonable deals. I'd wait and see on Nelson, but I'd definitely leave the door open to extending him during his last season. The rest, Bailey, Lee, Palmieri, JGP, Cizikas, Clutter and Martin, would not be in my plans past their current contract and could be moved sooner if there's a market and it's beneficial.
 
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MikeyMike01

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Jul 13, 2007
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So if I understand this right, we need to unload veterans for draft picks, then unload those drafted players if they don't produce right away.

Really it’s all about draft picks

The Coyotes are the most fun to root for

D9DE937A-476B-4EB2-BE73-0E1449AA29A9.jpeg
 
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12Dog

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Ok. But that mostly speaks to other issues that one could criticize management on… such as not having enough quality youthful depth that could provide a reason to push those vets out.

Regardless of what commitments were made contractually to Clutterbuck, I still don’t see it as some kind of artificial suppression of another deserving player.

I personally would’ve preferred Clutterbuck to be signed on a year-to-year deal. But I still don’t see any major issue with his two year deal. Even now with him injured.

The Isles are still under the cap. The injury would’ve provided LTIR cap relief if it WAS needed. Isles pro scouts did a great job of identifying Fasching as a possible depth call up. Durandeau, Holmstrom all look like promising replacements for the PK and bottom six. Still some prospects like Liukas who may also fit that role.

At the end of the day, I just do not see the extension to all three being as detrimental to the team as some feared it would be. They have proven to remain useful players and their contracts are easy enough to drop if anyone forced their way on… Bellows, Koivula? That could/should have been the ones to do so. But they failed.

Ultimately, the big hinderance of this lineup is that Wahlstrom or Beauvillier didn’t become consistent top six producers and Bailey didn’t age more like Mats Zuccarello or at least Zach Parise for that matter.
Botching Nino’s development because of salary cap compliance, drafting Strome and DalColle, that was just as bad if not worse than Beauvilier and Whalstrom as being a hindrance
If the guys drafted turned into legitimate top 6 players, it takes the pressure off of every other line
But at least Snow was able to turn Reinhardt into a positive
The best fourth line? Yes they should’ve been re-signed, but one year, 2 year deal at most, at a time
This latest Cizikas deal? Too long
 
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