Line Combos: Roster Discussion/Line Combos

[stevo61]

And who's to say that isn't the case today?

We don't know and I don't think it matters as to why a trade was made. The fact shows you can use a trade of a key asset to make the team better in the long run regardless if they wanted to be traded or not.

You can. You can even make seemingly nothing trades and strike gold. Or you can trade for magic beans that turn into nothing. It wouldnt be shocking to see them trade Boone for futures and have those futures amount to nothing. Boone isnt a Nash level player where you arent bringing back established NHLers to that same degree. He'd also be picked up by a contender so you are looking at a late 1st+ whatever vs what they were able to do with Jones

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

You can. You can even make seemingly nothing trades and strike gold. Or you can trade for magic beans that turn into nothing. It wouldnt be shocking to see them trade Boone for futures and have those futures amount to nothing. Boone isnt a Nash level player where you arent bringing back established NHLers to that same degree. He'd also be picked up by a contender so you are looking at a late 1st+ whatever vs what they were able to do with Jones

Now you are talking trade deadline versus the Summer when it comes to return.

Nash and Jones were traded in the Summer. If we do look at trading Boone, then it should be done in the summer by a new GM as part of the roster revamp and legitimately fix the issues we continue to have every year.

 

[majormajor]

What incentive did Howson have to move Rick Nash but look at those 3 trades that were made and set Jarmo up for success.

And who's to say that isn't the case today?

We don't know and I don't think it matters as to why a trade was made. The fact shows you can use a trade of a key asset to make the team better in the long run regardless if they wanted to be traded or not.

Howson's set of moves made the team better immediately. They almost made the playoffs that year.

He traded for leadership and structure. That and we suddenly had 4 solid centers, a great forecheck, and a Vezina level goalie. The two futures acquired didn't pan out, although we parlayed Rychel into the great Scott Harrington!

So if you want to trade Jenner for futures, then Howson's moves are hardly the right precedent to cite. Though if you want to trade Jenner for even better leaders who will help immediately, then sure. I haven't heard @cbjthrowaway put that one out yet.

 

[thebus88]

All I want to add to the Jenner talk is that I could see him moved for the same reasons almost any other veteran that’s played on the team over a long period is eventually moved. I also think it would happen, at the earliest, at the deadline NEXT year, if the team still continued to show no legitimate playoff potential, as I believe there will be somewhat “sweeping” roster changes after this trade deadline/offseason and into next year and they will “go for it” again.

Unlike the Nash trade, where we got 2 players to fill a positional need (center) and were overall very versatile players, it would be very hard to make the team better immediately from a Jenner return, because of what he adds to the team that it lacks. All that matters is that we get the correct players in return, or turn the assets into the correct players that fit the team and its needs better. More Dubinsky/Anisimovs/Tyutins and less Roslovic/Provorovs

The most important question that many of you are seemingly jumping past is, what exactly does Boone Jenner feel about the current CBJ and the potential of being traded??

 

[Viqsi]

I invite anyone who has serious doubts about the necessity of holding on to Boone (barring a ludicrous overpayment) to go chat with Sabres fans on TR&FA. By and large, they get it - because they don't have that kind of guy and they're seeing a second Potential Future Core potentially waste away in front of their eyes as a result.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

So if you want to trade Jenner for futures, then Howson's moves are hardly the right precedent to cite. Though if you want to trade Jenner for even better leaders who will help immediately, then sure. I haven't heard @cbjthrowaway put that one out yet.

people assume the logic is trade jenner » get futures » plug more young guys into the lineup. it's more nuanced than that, especially with the presumption that a new GM would be coming in around the same time.

also, while this isn't "trading jenner for even better leaders" in a 1-to-1 sense, they could trade jenner at the deadline for a haul, then find veterans to round out the roster this summer to 'replace' his leadership at a much lower cost. plus, that player (or players) would be hand-picked by the new GM.

the short-term ramification of that is simply not having jenner for the last month of the season, in which time they would be able to give more NHL minutes to the young guys, which helps the new FO evaluate which guys they want to build around.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I invite anyone who has serious doubts about the necessity of holding on to Boone (barring a ludicrous overpayment) to go chat with Sabres fans on TR&FA. By and large, they get it - because they don't have that kind of guy and they're seeing a second Potential Future Core potentially waste away in front of their eyes as a result.

they do have exactly "that kind of guy" in kyle okposo. jenner produces at a higher clip, but okposo been lionized for his leadership in the exact same vein as jenner over the last few years.

also i'd argue that a first rounder + top prospect + additional pick is absolutely a "ludicrous overpayment" for a soon-to-be 31-year-old with significant injury history and a career high of 49 points, and that whatever intangibles he brings can be backfilled this summer for a much lower cost.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Howson's set of moves made the team better immediately. They almost made the playoffs that year.

He traded for leadership and structure. That and we suddenly had 4 solid centers, a great forecheck, and a Vezina level goalie. The two futures acquired didn't pan out, although we parlayed Rychel into the great Scott Harrington!

So if you want to trade Jenner for futures, then Howson's moves are hardly the right precedent to cite. Though if you want to trade Jenner for even better leaders who will help immediately, then sure. I haven't heard @cbjthrowaway put that one out yet.

This is my contention all along.

Not for futures, for people who can be leaders. We are a team full of followers. I think I'm probably well documented that I'm not a fan of silent lead by example leaders.

I'll use an NFL example. I'm not a huge Zac Taylor fan and i think the Bengals could be better if they has a "better X's and O's" coach but I'll be damned if the players who play for him won't run through a brick wall for him and Joe Burrow.

Yeah. I get Boone is a likable guy who plays the game the right way but I don't see a locker room full of players who would do anything for him.

 

[Viqsi]

people assume the logic is trade jenner » get futures » plug more young guys into the lineup. it's more nuanced than that, especially with the presumption that a new GM would be coming in around the same time.

also, while this isn't "trading jenner for even better leaders" in a 1-to-1 sense, they could trade jenner at the deadline for a haul, then find veterans to round out the roster this summer to 'replace' his leadership at a much lower cost. plus, that player (or players) would be hand-picked by the new GM.

the short-term ramification of that is simply not having jenner for the last month of the season, in which time they would be able to give more NHL minutes to the young guys, which helps the new FO evaluate which guys they want to build around.

I thnk you're assuming too much ease w/r/t the availability of quality veteran mentors that aren't Even More Gudbransons And Kuralys.

 

[majormajor]

This is my contention all along.

Not for futures, for people who can be leaders. We are a team full of followers. I think I'm probably well documented that I'm not a fan of silent lead by example leaders.

I'll use an NFL example. I'm not a huge Zac Taylor fan and i think the Bengals could be better if they has a "better X's and O's" coach but I'll be damned if the players who play for him won't run through a brick wall for him and Joe Burrow.

Yeah. I get Boone is a likable guy who plays the game the right way but I don't see a locker room full of players who would do anything for him.

If you want to acquire leaders (I do too), then we should do that some other way than trading Boone Jenner.

That's like saying you want to trade for players with a great wrist shot and proposing trading Yegor Chinakhov for them.

Boone Jenner is a guy who runs through brick walls out there, and the idea is obviously that our young guys need that example to follow. If you want a more vocal version of that, then that sounds good, go get it (some other way). It's not like we'll have too many leaders if we add to what we have.

people assume the logic is trade jenner » get futures » plug more young guys into the lineup. it's more nuanced than that, especially with the presumption that a new GM would be coming in around the same time.

also, while this isn't "trading jenner for even better leaders" in a 1-to-1 sense, they could trade jenner at the deadline for a haul, then find veterans to round out the roster this summer to 'replace' his leadership at a much lower cost. plus, that player (or players) would be hand-picked by the new GM.

the short-term ramification of that is simply not having jenner for the last month of the season, in which time they would be able to give more NHL minutes to the young guys, which helps the new FO evaluate which guys they want to build around.

Please let us know exactly who you're thinking of acquiring and how this is supposed to work.

they do have exactly "that kind of guy" in kyle okposo. jenner produces at a higher clip, but okposo been lionized for his leadership in the exact same vein as jenner over the last few years.

also i'd argue that a first rounder + top prospect + additional pick is absolutely a "ludicrous overpayment" for a soon-to-be 31-year-old with significant injury history and a career high of 49 points, and that whatever intangibles he brings can be backfilled this summer for a much lower cost.

This really exposes the different ways we are thinking about this. Thinking about a young team with just one veteran leader*, who plays on their fourth line, should alert you that they may have a leadership shortage. Instead it makes you think that leadership is overrated and they could have done better with zero.

*They actually have Alex Tuch as well, but it's altogether not enough players no matter where you draw the line.

 

[Viqsi]

If you want to acquire leaders (I do too), then we should do that some other way than trading Boone Jenner.

That's like saying you want to trade for players with a great wrist shot and proposing trading Yegor Chinakhov for them.

Boone Jenner is a guy who runs through brick walls out there, and the idea is obviously that our young guys need that example to follow. If you want a more vocal version of that, then that sounds good, go get it (some other way). It's not like we'll have too many leaders if we add to what we have.

Hell, if we can get a guy like that, I want him. Badly. I'm just not seeing any of them that are available that aren't More #7Ds and #13Fs.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I thnk you're assuming too much ease w/r/t the availability of quality veteran mentors that aren't Even More Gudbransons And Kuralys.

solely speaking about intangibles here: what is boone jenner bringing to the table that guys like gudbranson and kuraly aren't? for whatever other faults gudbranson has in his game, he's an excellent leader.

florida had a kuraly type as their stopgap captain (derek mackenzie) until barkov was ready to wear the C – no reason why the jackets can't do something similar with someone like gudbranson until fantilli is ready.

Not for futures, for people who can be leaders. We are a team full of followers. I think I'm probably well documented that I'm not a fan of silent lead by example leaders.

gudbranson seems like way more of a vocal leader, and is very willing to stand up for his teammates.

i absolutely would not mind getting a huge haul for jenner, giving gudbranson the C for a couple years, and having him be the strongest voice in the room.

 

[Viqsi]

solely speaking about intangibles here: what is boone jenner bringing to the table that guys like gudbranson and kuraly aren't?

Not being a bottom-line guy and actually being a significant contributor. Which matters w/r/t how seriously his message is taken.

 

[MoeBartoli]

i don’t get this. Boone is one of our best forwards on a great contract. So trade him. Bjorkstrand was one of our best forwards on a very good contract. Traded him…..I struggle to understand how a team improves trading guys who represent the beat economic relative to production assets. It’s a combination of:
- these type of contract players,
- ELCs/RFAs providing strong production;
- and your top end contacts performing to their pay grade
that combine for success.

Now if they are guys that don’t fit them then there’s reason to trade. But Boone (and Bjork) were good fits.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Not being a bottom-line guy and actually being a significant contributor. Which matters w/r/t how seriously his message is taken.

to some. Adam Lowry is a 3rd line guy on Winnipeg as far as I know. Boone should be a 3rd line guy in a good team.

I don’t agree as being the best player on your team who gets top line minutes doesn’t always mean you are a leader.

 

[Viqsi]

Boone should be a 3rd line guy in a good team.

I have never once seen the circumstance in which this approach to argument 1) is accurate and 2) ever actually conveys anything useful. People's standards for "a good team" seem to be less about "good" and more about "generational dynasty"...

 

[koteka]

Our big off-season acquisitions this year don’t have much playoff experience. They are experts on playing out the season on a team that is out of the playoffs, so I am sure the young guys can go to them for some good advice about what they are going through over the next few months.

 

[Viqsi]

Our big off-season acquisitions this year don’t have much playoff experience. They are experts on playing out the season on a team that is out of the playoffs, so I am sure the young guys can go to them for some good advice about what they are going through over the next few months.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I have never once seen the circumstance in which this approach to argument 1) is accurate and 2) ever actually conveys anything useful. People's standards for "a good team" seem to be less about "good" and more about "generational dynasty"...

I would love to see scientific evidence that being the best player means you are the best leader.

Or is it correlation or causation? The correlation of most teams naming their best player captain does not imply causation here.

We can hypothesize that leadership skills may help lead someone to be the best player but we also see plenty of great players who can't lead their way out a of a paper bag and we've seen some hard workers in 3rd and 4th line roles be great leaders as well such as Derek MacKenzie.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an example of how great of a leader Boone is that is more than being a guy who works hard. It also seems silly to me that Eric Gudbranson can't be a considered a leader because he's a 3rd pairing defenseman even though he was a previous lottery pick with lots of experience in the league because he's not an all star.

 

[Viqsi]

I would love to see scientific evidence that being the best player means you are the best leader.

Or is it correlation or causation? The correlation of most teams naming their best player captain does not imply causation here.

We can hypothesize that leadership skills may help lead someone to be the best player but we also see plenty of great players who can't lead their way out a of a paper bag and we've seen some hard workers in 3rd and 4th line roles be great leaders as well such as Derek MacKenzie.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an example of how great of a leader Boone is that is more than being a guy who works hard. It also seems silly to me that Eric Gudbranson can't be a considered a leader because he's a 3rd pairing defenseman even though he was a previous lottery pick with lots of experience in the league because he's not an all star.

I think you're trying to debate a point I never made. I'm just saying that leadership can resonate more with kids when it's coming from someone who is also a major contributor to those moments when the team is successful.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Not being a bottom-line guy and actually being a significant contributor. Which matters w/r/t how seriously his message is taken.

not for nothing but erik gudbranson is fourth in ATOI on the team. obviously F/D comparisons are flawed here but he has higher ATOI than jenner, too. even if he's nominally on the third pair moving forward, he'll be surrounded by enough young guys that he'll likely still play significant minutes solely because of PK duties.

and, again, florida had a fourth liner (derek mackenzie) as the stopgap from willie mitchell to sasha barkov. and i mentioned okposo, who is buffalo's captain and gets revered in the same way jenner does, while being a fourth liner.

i get that it hurts to move guys like boone, but sometimes it's necessary. it happened with foligno, it happened with jones, and it happened with cam atkinson. it's never a "we need less of what they're bringing" thing, it's a "this is the right decision for the franchise."

if you can get a significant package of future assets for a soon-to-be 31-year-old with a career high of 49 points and a bad back, you can live with a stopgap leadership solution, especially when you have a guy like fantilli who has NHL captain written all over him.

 

[cslebn]

Rumors are thick over on the Avs board about Jenner to Colorado, especially with Lindholm and now Monahan off the board. They seem to be treating this commenter as credible, but I suspect much of that is wishful thinking.

I thought this kind of speculation from that poster was against forums rules? @Viqsi for clarification.

 

[KJ Dangler]

I thought this kind of speculation from that poster was against forums rules? @Viqsi for clarification.

What ?

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

not for nothing but erik gudbranson is fourth in ATOI on the team. obviously F/D comparisons are flawed here but he has higher ATOI than jenner, too. even if he's nominally on the third pair moving forward, he'll be surrounded by enough young guys that he'll likely still play significant minutes solely because of PK duties.

and, again, florida had a fourth liner (derek mackenzie) as the stopgap from willie mitchell to sasha barkov. and i mentioned okposo, who is buffalo's captain and gets revered in the same way jenner does, while being a fourth liner.

i get that it hurts to move guys like boone, but sometimes it's necessary. it happened with foligno, it happened with jones, and it happened with cam atkinson. it's never a "we need less of what they're bringing" thing, it's a "this is the right decision for the franchise."

if you can get a significant package of future assets for a soon-to-be 31-year-old with a career high of 49 points and a bad back, you can live with a stopgap leadership solution, especially when you have a guy like fantilli who has NHL captain written all over him.

I'm not on board exactly for future assets but I'm absolutely down for more character experience.

Ideally something like Rick Nash's deal where he brought back Dubinsky and Anisimov. The other assets in that trade were a wash of "futures" but if we can get 2 solid NHL players with some character that fill holes that this team has for 1 pretty good one I consider that a win for future development.

 

[Viqsi]

I thought this kind of speculation from that poster was against forums rules? @Viqsi for clarification.

The short version is that on HFAvs (on all team boards, actually) it's at their discretion, but outside of that, it's a no-no without admin vetting, and that one isn't admin vetted.

Yes, that means that technically we could have non-vetted folks here at HFCBJ chatting about such things so long as it doesn't spread beyond that. In practice, I think it causes too many issues elsewhere (blame my short stint modding TR&FA, if you want to blame something specific) and so I personally insist on admin vetting. I don't get to tell HFAvs how to run their shop, tho.