Roster Building XXIV: Our Hearts Go Pitter Pattersson

[Blueline Bomber]

Non-Canes fan here in peace. Obviously the Canes have been heavily linked to Pettersson lately. Is Miller also a target? I could see him as the piece to push the Canes over the top.

Miller, Desharnais, Lankinen for KK, Kochetkov, Walker, Nadeau seems like a decent fit.

This is hilariously lopsided in Vancouver's favor. Also, we targeted both EP and Miller, but ultimately decided on Rantanen instead. We have no idea if Miller is still in the cards.

 

[Americanadian]

This is hilariously lopsided in Vancouver's favor. Also, we targeted both EP and Miller, but ultimately decided on Rantanen instead. We have no idea if Miller is still in the cards.

Maybe I undervalued the Carolina pieces.

 

[MinJaBen]

Maybe I undervalued the Carolina pieces.

I won't say much on the value one way or another as organizations and fans always overvalue theirs and undervalue others. However, I can't imagine that the organization would move that many guys off of the active roster during what looks like a very productive season. If we are still interested in Miller, it probably is tabled until after we have a few weeks of Rantanen and Hall in the lineup and see what, if any needs still exist in the forward lineup. Also, since we are trying to woo Rantanen to sign with the club, adding a guy that can be a bit abrasive to the locker room might not be desired.

 

[Americanadian]

I won't say much on the value one way or another as organizations and fans always overvalue theirs and undervalue others. However, I can't imagine that the organization would move that many guys off of the active roster during what looks like a very productive season. If we are still interested in Miller, it probably is tabled until after we have a few weeks of Rantanen and Hall in the lineup and see what, if any needs still exist in the forward lineup. Also, since we are trying to woo Rantanen to sign with the club, adding a guy that can be a bit abrasive to the locker room might not be desired.

I actually thought the complete opposite. From the outside looking in Miller seems like a perfect conduit for RBA's intensity. His reported intense attitude mirrors that of MacKinnon who Rantanen spent his whole career with.

 

[cptjeff]

I actually thought the complete opposite. From the outside looking in Miller seems like a perfect conduit for RBA's intensity. His reported intense attitude mirrors that of MacKinnon who Rantanen spent his whole career with.

There is a line between intense and toxic, and while MacKinnon seems like he often saddles right up to it, Miller is known to go over it with some regularity. Do I think mentorship from Rod could help fix that? Yes. Do I think we're going big game hunting after getting Rantanen? No, so to my mind, it's irrelevant.

 

[DaveG]

Non-Canes fan here in peace. Obviously the Canes have been heavily linked to Pettersson lately. Is Miller also a target? I could see him as the piece to push the Canes over the top.

Miller, Desharnais, Lankinen for KK, Kochetkov, Walker, Nadeau seems like a decent fit.

that's overly complicated and heavily favors Vancouver even if Nadeau is dropped.

There was definitely interest but that seemed to be more EP than JT based on the deal that was hashed out with Colorado.

At this point anything around JT would definitely be based around KK but it would also require money out being higher than money coming in based on our cap situation and the likely need to call up one of Nadeau/Suzuki/FUS to fill the roster hole that would be generated to balance the salaries. Basically we were already in a tight spot with the cap (intentionally to maximize LTIR with Fast, which is why the cap structure of the ELC Montgomery signed was so absolutely ridiculous) and that's before adding to our cap hit in net with the Rantanen and Hall acquisitions even with Chicago eating half the Rants deal.

 

[Americanadian]

that's overly complicated and heavily favors Vancouver even if Nadeau is dropped.

There was definitely interest but that seemed to be more EP than JT based on the deal that was hashed out with Colorado.

At this point anything around JT would definitely be based around KK but it would also require money out being higher than money coming in based on our cap situation and the likely need to call up one of Nadeau/Suzuki/FUS to fill the roster hole that would be generated to balance the salaries. Basically we were already in a tight spot with the cap (intentionally to maximize LTIR with Fast, which is why the cap structure of the ELC Montgomery signed was so absolutely ridiculous) and that's before adding to our cap hit in net with the Rantanen and Hall acquisitions even with Chicago eating half the Rants deal.

The proposed trade would leave the Canes cap compliant with Fast on LTIR, no? They also wouldn't need to backfill given 1 D/F/G out, 1 D/F/G in.

 

[bleedgreen]

I don’t think we look at our lineup as complete, or that we think we can currently win the cup so I imagine we’re going to be involved right up to the deadline. Tulsky’s comments certainly sell the concept that we’re going to make every effort to get Rants done but for the second year in a row we paid more than a rental trade costs to get our guy - feels like we’re wasting assets if the deal can’t get done. We’ve heard the Borg say they’re gonna get it done before. Pulling off a big trade isn’t very hard if you’re willing to overpay more than everyone else. We’re showing effort there but one of these guys has to stick around.

I don’t know how much change we can bring in the next month that’ll make this team a true cup contender. I don’t think that it was worth the price if we don’t do more before the deadline and he walks.

I do appreciate the lack of fear making the move in the first place.

Side note….I really like Rants but he hasn’t really played like someone that’s paid over even 10 million consistently over the last few years. I have someone in my life that’s pretty connected in the hockey world, who tends to be strongly opinionated to the point where I take him with a grain of salt while still knowing he does know people behind the scenes. He says Rants has no effs to give generally and wasn’t driven to help the Avs win in recent years. Again, I take it with a grain of salt and also know coming to play with Aho could invigorate him even if what was said is true. I know even before that info came I didn’t think he was worth anything close to 14. He was 9-10 mill tops to me as of a couple of months ago.

I say that knowing he’s an elite shooter and really strong on the puck. He (like Jake) is exactly on paper a/the player we need/want. Comes down to contract though. Just because you need something doesn’t mean you spend millions more to get it in a cap world. There’s a part of me that’s 50/50 in agreeing with the borgs generally behavior in the past when looking at Rants. It’s nice to have to make the decision vs wondering what it’s like to have a guy like this though.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Side note….I really like Rants but he hasn’t really played like someone that’s paid over even 10 million consistently over the last few years. I have someone in my life that’s pretty connected in the hockey world, who tends to be strongly opinionated to the point where I take him with a grain of salt while still knowing he does know people behind the scenes. He says Rants has no effs to give generally and wasn’t driven to help the Avs win in recent years. Again, I take it with a grain of salt and also know coming to play with Aho could invigorate him even if what was said is true. I know even before that info came I didn’t think he was worth anything close to 14. He was 9-10 mill tops to me as of a couple of months ago.

I say that knowing he’s an elite shooter and really strong on the puck. He (like Jake) is exactly on paper a/the player we need/want. Comes down to contract though. Just because you need something doesn’t mean you spend millions more to get it in a cap world. There’s a part of me that’s 50/50 in agreeing with the borgs generally behavior in the past when looking at Rants. It’s nice to have to make the decision vs wondering what it’s like to have a guy like this though.

His last few years, he put up 92, 105, and 104 points. If that’s him playing with “no effs” and “not driven”, what does he look like motivated?

 

[DaveG]

Canes would be more likely looking for something like KK and Roslovic out though. And I say this even as someone that likes Lankinen a lot, with where it looks like JT, based on the rumored Rangers deal, is valued right now due to his contract and it's just took much quality moving out for Carolina even with KK's contract factored in. Walker and especially Kochetkov aren't the right pieces here from the Canes basically.

 

[bleedgreen]

His last few years, he put up 92, 105, and 104 points. If that’s him playing with “no effs” and “not driven”, what does he look like motivated?

I agree! If he’s motivated he’s a beast. Avs fans will tell you despite the production they’ve been left wanting from his effort. It’s not unlike us watching Aho this season or in the playoffs generally. The production is there despite him not looking at his best, and you’d love to see him at his best.

Rants pts are greatly effected by him being the primary shooter to pass to by the best defenseman in the last 20 years and a guy who would be the best center of this generation if 97 didn’t exist. You can’t not factor that in. He’s an elite shooter and as long as he’s getting fed pucks in scoring spaces the production should be there.

Rantanen has not had create much of his production on his own, though when he was younger he could and often did.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I agree! If he’s motivated he’s a beast. Avs fans will tell you despite the production they’ve been left wanting from his effort. It’s not unlike us watching Aho this season or in the playoffs generally. The production is there despite him not looking at his best, and you’d love to see him at his best.

Rants pts are greatly effected by him being the primary shooter to pass to by the best defenseman in the last 20 years and a guy who would be the best center of this generation if 97 didn’t exist. You can’t not factor that in. He’s an elite shooter and as long as he’s getting fed pucks in scoring spaces the production should be there.

Rantanen has not had create much of his production on his own, though when he was younger he could and often did.

Should also factor in ice time. 23 minutes a night is probably not something he'll get here. Just on p/60 alone that's enough to knock him down 10 pts or so.

 

[WreckingCrew]

Maybe I undervalued the Carolina pieces.

That's putting it lightly, even dropping Nadeau or replacing Miller with EP I probably wouldn't touch that trade (Miller too much risk, EP to much $ on that contract). Lankinen has meh value, he's not an improvement over Freddie/Kooch (plus he's a pending UFA whereas Kooch is on a cheap deal a couple more years). Desharnais I can't imagine has any real value/interest to us...massive downgrade from Walker.

 

[Svechhammer]

I agree! If he’s motivated he’s a beast. Avs fans will tell you despite the production they’ve been left wanting from his effort. It’s not unlike us watching Aho this season or in the playoffs generally. The production is there despite him not looking at his best, and you’d love to see him at his best.

Rants pts are greatly effected by him being the primary shooter to pass to by the best defenseman in the last 20 years and a guy who would be the best center of this generation if 97 didn’t exist. You can’t not factor that in. He’s an elite shooter and as long as he’s getting fed pucks in scoring spaces the production should be there.

Rantanen has not had create much of his production on his own, though when he was younger he could and often did.

I don't have too much of a worry that him and Aho should collect points. Their skill sets complement each other very well and I am going to guess they heat up dramatically over the next couple months like Aho and Guentzel did last year. Giving Aho elite players to play with will always work, the guy just needs someone who can reliably capitalize on his passing, and vice versa.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I mentioned right when the trade was breaking that I think Rantanen has some similar inconsistencies to Necas, just he's a better player. I do think with where the cap is going, we should be willing to go pretty far to get him signed, though. We have done well enough with some of our other core players that we can handle a big contract like he'll demand and still strengthen some other weak areas. As I mentioned the other day, that's the whole points of all the good drafting, signing, and pro talent scouting we've been able to do is to splurge on a big time player when possible.

 

[Americanadian]

That's putting it lightly, even replacing Miller with EP and dropping Nadeau I wouldn't touch that trade with a 100 ft pole. Lankinen has meh value, he's not an improvement over Freddie/Kooch (plus he's a pending UFA whereas Kooch is on a cheap deal a couple more years). Desharnais I can't imagine has any real value/interest to us...massive downgrade from Walker.

I honestly viewed Waker as a negative value asset.

Also - obviously Lankinen isn't as good as Freddie/Kooch but I figured Andersen is more likely to be playing in the playoffs.

 

[chaz4hockey]

Non-Canes fan here in peace. Obviously the Canes have been heavily linked to Pettersson lately. Is Miller also a target? I could see him as the piece to push the Canes over the top.

Miller, Desharnais, Lankinen for KK, Kochetkov, Walker, Nadeau seems like a decent fit.

I'd look at the comment images and draw your own conclusion. Canuck fans view Miller and Desharnais as broken wheels and you want those assets from the Canes. Geez.

 

[bleedgreen]

I mentioned right when the trade was breaking that I think Rantanen has some similar inconsistencies to Necas, just he's a better player. I do think with where the cap is going, we should be willing to go pretty far to get him signed, though. We have done well enough with some of our other core players that we can handle a big contract like he'll demand and still strengthen some other weak areas. As I mentioned the other day, that's the whole points of all the good drafting, signing, and pro talent scouting we've been able to do is to splurge on a big time player when possible.

I agree with all this. I’m not saying don’t sign him and we have to make efforts to keep high end guys - we always need them. If it costs 13-14 I don’t assume he’ll live up to it, though I know for the Canes it might be the cost of doing business and keeping a big time player here.

I’ve already gotten push back on comparing him to Jake and people will pull out stats. I feel those stats are very much influenced by the team he’s played for and how he was used here. He’s a different player than Jake for sure, but there’s a lot of similarities in the results. They both know how to get the puck in the net from the rough areas of the ice. The rest of their game is a matter of opinion and what it’s worth financially is always an interesting debate. Goal scoring is the toughest skill to get, and also the most expensive to keep. I view Rants as only a mild improvement over Jake and it’s all size related. It’s more than stats. It’s team quality, usage, linemates….conference. One game, one night with both of them playing with elite centers I don’t know that one blows the other away.

 

[Wolfpuck]

I think 8 x 12.96 gets it done for Mikko.

 

[chaz4hockey]

I agree! If he’s motivated he’s a beast. Avs fans will tell you despite the production they’ve been left wanting from his effort. It’s not unlike us watching Aho this season or in the playoffs generally. The production is there despite him not looking at his best, and you’d love to see him at his best.

Rants pts are greatly effected by him being the primary shooter to pass to by the best defenseman in the last 20 years and a guy who would be the best center of this generation if 97 didn’t exist. You can’t not factor that in. He’s an elite shooter and as long as he’s getting fed pucks in scoring spaces the production should be there.

Rantanen has not had create much of his production on his own, though when he was younger he could and often did.

Bender rides his top players with lots of minutes....he has been playing MR high level of minutes for last 4 years...(24 minutes in LY's playoffs).

It's quite possible that the appearance that MR is coasting is tied to high level of minutes. I suspect RBA will knock his minutes down to 18-19 versus the 22+ Bender has been playing him. Heck, Bender played Necas 25 minutes his first game (after he took a 6am flight).

We will know soon enough.....

 

[mikeyfan]

What about trying to bring back an old friend in Morgan Geekie? Make him the 4th line center, where he can also interchange with KK or Blake, or Hall if Rod wishes to use him in the top lines. he has a Cap hit of 2 million and will be a RFA with Arbitration rights next season.

He knows the system, and I truly believe Rod hated that we had to put him in the expansion draft.

 

[bleedgreen]

Bender rides his top players with lots of minutes....he has been playing MW high level of minutes for last 4 years...24 minutes in LY's playoffs).

It's quite possible that the appearance that MW is coasting is tied to high level of minutes. I suspect RBA will knock his minutes down to 18-19 versus the 22+ Bender has been playing him. Heck, Bender played Necas 25 minutes his first game (after he took a 6am flight).

We will know soon enough.....

Oh agreed for sure. The Avs are a top heavy team and they ride the top guys into the ground. They get every penny out of them, and those players step up to get it done which is amazing to watch. Necas is going to love it, he can actually get the zoomies out of his system every single game and there will be no leash - while playing with one of a very small group of players that Necas has to work to keep up with.

Rants has to do more with less, and he’ll get fewer minutes too. It’s got potential to work great and help raise our level.

 

[WreckingCrew]

What about trying to bring back an old friend in Morgan Geekie? Make him the 4th line center, where he can also interchange with KK or Blake, or Hall if Rod wishes to use him in the top lines. he has a Cap hit of 2 million and will be a RFA with Arbitration rights next season.

He knows the system, Rod and I truly believe Rod hated that we had to put him in the expansion draft.

More G & PTS than Elias Lindholm...and only $6.75M/yr cheaper!

 

[spockBokk]

I honestly viewed Waker as a negative value asset.

See, this is completely wrong.

Walker has been excellent. Seamless fit into RBA’s system.

I wouldn’t completely discount the Canes interest in Miller, nor the fit. I just think they’d be looking at getting him for scraps after the Rantanen trade. Scraps being something like Kotkaniemi + Roslovic and a small, non-roster add that wouldn’t consist of Morrow, Nadeau, Unger Sorum, etc, maybe a Badinka or similar level prospect. Very likely not enough.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I agree with all this. I’m not saying don’t sign him and we have to make efforts to keep high end guys - we always need them. If it costs 13-14 I don’t assume he’ll live up to it, though I know for the Canes it might be the cost of doing business and keeping a big time player here.

I’ve already gotten push back on comparing him to Jake and people will pull out stats. I feel those stats are very much influenced by the team he’s played for and how he was used here. He’s a different player than Jake for sure, but there’s a lot of similarities in the results. They both know how to get the puck in the net from the rough areas of the ice. The rest of their game is a matter of opinion and what it’s worth financially is always an interesting debate. Goal scoring is the toughest skill to get, and also the most expensive to keep. I view Rants as only a mild improvement over Jake and it’s all size related. It’s more than stats. It’s team quality, usage, linemates….conference. One game, one night with both of them playing with elite centers I don’t know that one blows the other away.

Yeah, I'm down with what you're saying too. All things considered, I probably would have found a way to extend Jake even if it was 9-9.5 over all the extra we'll have to pay Rantanen. I think Rantanen is like a tier higher, but they are both in pretty high to elite tiers. Anyway, it didn't work out with Jake, lessons learned.

I agree there is a pretty good likelihood he won't live up to the contract (whatever it ends up being) in the long term. The same was probably true for Jake but it will likely be more extreme with the larger contract. The only good news is if there really is a cap explosion in the next 5 years and beyond, it could completely redefine what is a good contract and who is living up to one.

If we keep him, I'm not too worried about his production even with reduced time. I think he'll still live in that 90-105 point range for some years to come. He'll hopefully be fresher and at least we've been more open to the first unit PP staying out 90 seconds this season.