Roster Building XXIV: Our Hearts Go Pitter Pattersson

Well, take Frank Vatrano for example. He signed a 3 year deal with Anaheim that will give him 3 million a year. He also got $9 million deferred starting 10 years from now, earning $900k a year. Why did he do it?

Because he figures 10 years from now, he won’t be living in California and thus, that $9 million will not be subjected to the high California taxes. His deferred payments are considered “retirement income” by some provision of the US tax code, and no state may tax the retirement income if the person doesn’t live in that state.

Obviously, the issue is as you said: Most players are going to want their money ASAP because they know if they invest it wisely, they’ll end up with more money than if they defer it. But Tulsky has already successfully swayed Slavin and Jarvis to defer some part of their new contract. He may be successful in getting Rantanen to do so as well.
This works if you are in say NJ, NY CA, maybe WA, COL maybe (not sure about COL) and possibly places like MI. Definitely the NE and Cali. Because you know, the highest taxes in the nation. But in Carolina, its probably not a selling point and in TN and FL not at all.
 
This works if you are in say NJ, NY CA, maybe WA, COL maybe (not sure about COL) and possibly places like MI. Definitely the NE and Cali. Because you know, the highest taxes in the nation. But in Carolina, its probably not a selling point and in TN and FL not at all.
shockingly Washington has no income tax. Minnesota's definitely high. Illinois is a bit higher than here, Michigan's is lower somehow.
 
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Well that flies in the face of some narratives that developed in previous years

Yep, I loved that segment of the interview and he followed it up saying that Dundon is fine with decisions as long as the thought process around it is sound. i.e. They're not going to freak out and go off plan if something changes on them.
 
I thought (always the first step to being wrong) players were taxed by the state their pay was earned in, so away game taxes depend on opponent. Did i dream that?

If not, having a decent number of away games in high-tax states might create a threshold for each individual where deferral makes sense?

idk, my wife is the cpa, not me.
 
Yep, I loved that segment of the interview and he followed it up saying that Dundon is fine with decisions as long as the thought process around it is sound. i.e. They're not going to freak out and go off plan if something changes on them.
Again, it completely kneecaps the reputation he has in this league.

If you can show him the move makes sense, he will sign off on it, and you basically have free reign to do anything as long as he trusts you and you can show him you know what you're doing.

So how much of the past has been Dundon so cheap when maybe it was Waddell so cheap?
 
Again, it completely kneecaps the reputation he has in this league.

If you can show him the move makes sense, he will sign off on it, and you basically have free reign to do anything as long as he trusts you and you can show him you know what you're doing.

So how much of the past has been Dundon so cheap when maybe it was Waddell so cheap?

Then explain why Dundon, not Waddell, almost killed the RBA contract
 
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I thought (always the first step to being wrong) players were taxed by the state their pay was earned in, so away game taxes depend on opponent. Did i dream that?

If not, having a decent number of away games in high-tax states might create a threshold for each individual where deferral makes sense?

idk, my wife is the cpa, not me.
that's also correct, but in this case I think it would be more relevant on how signing bonuses are calculated as I would think the deferred salary would be treated similar. But yeah, the jock tax thing is a big reason why a lot of players prefer a low base salary with most of the money being in signing bonus if possible.
 
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Then explain why Dundon, not Waddell, almost killed the RBA contract

Because the conversation was specifically about player moves. Everything that does not have a mandated cap structure Dundon treats differently. That includes the coaching staff. Right or wrong, it is a different category of assets according to the league and Dundon.
 
Then explain why Dundon, not Waddell, almost killed the RBA contract
Genuinely curious, do you have inside knowledge that this happened, because everything I've heard was that there was never any real worry about it falling through, just needed to find a middle ground and neither side showed any urgency to get something done.
 
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~12:35

Vancouver asked for Kotkaniemi in talks. This is not the first time the Canucks have been linked to the player.


Something to keep an eye on moving forward. If a center of middle 6 quality (or higher) comes in, you would think they’ll look for an off ramp in lieu of paying a 4C almost $5 mil per, now in the Rantanen era.
 


~12:35

Vancouver asked for Kotkaniemi in talks. This is not the first time the Canucks have been linked to the player.


Something to keep an eye on moving forward. If a center of middle 6 quality (or higher) comes in, you would think they’ll look for an off ramp in lieu of paying a 4C almost $5 mil per, now in the Rantanen era.

Highly unlikely, but what if they moved KK out + picks/prospects (-4.82) though 2029-30 for Petterson (+11.6) through 2031-32. difference of 6.78 added to the cap. I feel like stranger things have happened.
 
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Then explain why Dundon, not Waddell, almost killed the RBA contract
This - RBA and Guentzel we were bickering over nickels. Let alone Kaiton and Forslund, but Big rig is good now so....



~12:35

Vancouver asked for Kotkaniemi in talks. This is not the first time the Canucks have been linked to the player.


Something to keep an eye on moving forward. If a center of middle 6 quality (or higher) comes in, you would think they’ll look for an off ramp in lieu of paying a 4C almost $5 mil per, now in the Rantanen era.

It's not the Rantanen era until he's inked for 8, which I have huge doubts we will get done. When was the last time we signed a big UFA, ours or not and PAID them, besides Orlov, which I still think was dumb.
 
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Genuinely curious, do you have inside knowledge that this happened, because everything I've heard was that there was never any real worry about it falling through, just needed to find a middle ground and neither side showed any urgency to get something done.

From what I’ve been told, Waddell and RBA had a deal in place at the beginning of last year. There was no urgency to sign it because they wanted to focus on the season ahead, and both sides were happy with what was on the table. Then, right around the end of the Islanders series, they decided to put the finishing touches on it, and brought it to Dundon for approval. Dundon balked at the new price of RBA and his assistants and basically threw out that contract, wanting to negotiate with RBA himself. This is when those rumors about “Carolina takes RBA’s contract off the table, could he coach elsewhere?” popped up.

Obviously, no one really knows exactly what happened outside of Waddell, RBA and Dundon, but I believe there was an RBA interview with Gold shortly after the deal was done that made mention of the “bump in the road at the end there.” And having Dundon come in and basically remove Waddell from that negotiation process was also the straw that broke the camel’s back that led to Waddell unexpectedly leaving.
 
Highly unlikely, but what if they moved KK out + picks/prospects (-4.82) though 2029-30 for Petterson (+11.6) through 2031-32. difference of 6.78 added to the cap. I feel like stranger things have happened.
Necas was the main piece in any Pettersson deal. Without him to dangle anymore, I don’t see a trade with Vancouver for Pettersson that doesn’t include Nikishin. The Canes simply don’t have another blue chip piece outside of Jarvis/Svechnikov/Aho/Nikishin that I think would interest the Canucks, regardless of their potential interest in Kotkaniemi. I don’t think Morrow/Unger Sorum/Nadeau would move the needle that much for Vancouver if Kotkaniemi is the main piece.

Part of me wishes that they had gone for Pettersson over Rantanen, just to not have to worry about an extension for the next 6months.

I suppose they could make it interesting if they’re willing were willing to deal Svechnikov + Kotkaniemi for Pettersson, but that’s a whole lot of change, and I’d be shocked if they were ready to move on from Svechnikov.
 
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Highly unlikely, but what if they moved KK out + picks/prospects (-4.82) though 2029-30 for Petterson (+11.6) through 2031-32. difference of 6.78 added to the cap. I feel like stranger things have happened.
I don't know how we could possibly get EP at this point without Necas as an asset. We're not trading Nikishin and our other prospects do not come close to moving the needle. Would have to be Svech but I really don't think we have interest in trading him. I could see KK & picks/prospects for a 2C upgrade at some point but not EP

edit: @spockBokk beat me to it before I read that far down
 
Is it though? For one thing, Vancouver was reportedly asking for Necas for Miller. One can only imagine what their asking price was for EP40. It's reasonable to assume at least one of our high tier prospects not named Nikishin would've been required for EP like say Morrow, and it's safe to assume KK was required for both Miller, and definitely EP, in addition to Necas. After we traded Drury for Rantanen, I think it's safe to say the front office, and probably Rod, like KK better than Drury.

Then we look at Rantanen's production history, and he's just consistently a super-star tier player unlike EP and Miller. Colorado fans saying he's lazy the past few years while he posted 92, 105, and 104 points over the past 3 years sounds like they are either (A) coping with the loss of Rantanen from the team roster, (B) have an embarassment of riches situation when he isn't posted multiple points every game because they're used to highly elite production since they also have MacKinnon and Makar (C), they geniunely think he's somehow not that great and you wonder what a non-lazy/non-careless Rantanen looks like after all of his point production in his career.

If he's gotten lazy/careless in recent years, why did he not reach 90 points until 3 years ago? Before that season (21-22), he had two seasons in the 80s. One at 84 points, and another at 87. Furthermore, it was early in his NHL career when he had two seasons with a negative rating. -25 and -2. All of his other seasons have been at a plus rating after.

TLDR:

-We didn't get Rantanen because, oh it's Carolina moneypucking things again (those cheap, analytical driven silly rascals; this is a trite narrative) because they got 50% rentention for a rental versus expensive long term contracts.

-Rantanen is overall the better player performance wise than Miller or EP. Like at drafts, we typically go for the best player available. Rantanen was the best forward available.

-The trade cost was cheaper than EP, and Rantanen's trade cost was probably similiar for Miller too since they wanted Necas for Miller. Never mind the fact that Miller is about 4 years older than Rantanen at the age of almost 32 (this March). Aren't you a fan that's pointed out Carolina's reculantance to committ to long term, expensive contracts with older players like so many of us (I have)?

Why do you think 14 million dollars is the only number he's willing to sign? Considering the fact that just today he was saying he was willing to sign with Colorado for a discount. Even if that's not true, the fact that he made that public comment now means he's kind of backed himself into a corner with us, and he would look bad and like a liar if he was only willing to sign for 14 million. I doubt he signs for even 13.5.

I also read that Carolina, unlike Colorado, is willing to sign him for 8 years instead of only 7. Don't know how true that speculation is, but it's out there in the recent contract discussion in the public.

Also, how is it moneypuck for a player you think is only gonna sign for 14 million? How would our front office think Rantanen was a moneypuck move with his extension being one of the most expensive in the league even if it likely will be under 14 million?
We have no idea what Vancouver asked for either guy, speculation on these things aren’t reliable. I would’ve been fine sending Morrow for either guy as they both have term left and are far better players than Morrow. I haven’t been a strong advocate for either guy from the Nucks because of their contracts but I’d be more inclined to chase Miller than EP. The abrasive style would be a good fit, he’d compliment Aho. EP Aho’s harder. They’re very similar with a skill difference, I’m not sure EP makes the team better whereas Miller has a chance at it. I’d trade Morrow for either, but I think the better value is Miller

I never know what to make of fans who don’t watch a player making fun of fans that do watch a player, then pointing at stats to prove it. Rantanen’s stats growth generally reflects Mackinnons dominating growth, pp time with Mack and Makar, and huge minutes given to these top guys together. I feel the Western conference is a points feeding frenzy for the top dogs in the conference as well. Rantanen has been increasingly invisible with the Avs, it’s the truth. They’re right. Easily cured by a trade elsewhere? Sure. I hope so. Aho has good numbers this year but we’ve all noticed he wasn’t at the same level he’s been at in the past, no? A player can get pts without playing their best when they are in the right situation. You’re off base blindly saying because he’s had great pts he’s played this best. Rantanen hasn’t driven those huge numbers himself, he’s been playing with the best the game has to offer. With us Im just hoping he’s ppg-ish and a little above because that would be greatly appreciated. We’re not the team that gets him 100pts on paper. We’ll see, obviously it would be awesome if it goes that way.

I’m not fixated on 14. That’s the number his agent asked for so we’re using it as a barometer of possible asking price, and when I’m talking to others it’s the reference point being fed back to me. Not sure why you’re mentioning 14 with me, I’m not driving that. My honest opinion is that he’s a 10ish value. For him to sign with us vs markets he might like better it might be 12…or 14. He said he’d give CO a discount on his market value….lord only knows what he thinks his market value is! Sounds like we’d probably have to pay it. We’re not the hometown team.

- we’re always money pucking. Hard to imagine getting retention with years left on the Vancouver guys contracts but it’s available with Rants. That leaves us with more options this year. I think while we keep our eye on the future we’re very this year as the primary focus with these moves. We don’t know that Rants is staying. We’ve also added Hall and I think we’re adding more if we can find the right deals. We were rumored to have all three deals individually close to done, and we pivoted to Rants. You can say you think it’s because you think he’s the best player but I’ll never believe we did it without significant consideration to financial flexibility it gives us vs the other two.

- I don’t think we’re paying him 14 million over 8. It’s not proof we’re not money pucking. We’ll see. I could see us using our space to pay him that for two or three years? We’re crazy like that. I think you’re nuts if you don’t think TD and Tulsky aren’t money pucking every single move we do, for better or for worse. It’s our edge. We’re good at it.
 
This works if you are in say NJ, NY CA, maybe WA, COL maybe (not sure about COL) and possibly places like MI. Definitely the NE and Cali. Because you know, the highest taxes in the nation. But in Carolina, its probably not a selling point and in TN and FL not at all.
For foreign resident players (I dealt with this in reverse when I worked in a foreign country for a few years), taxes are much more complicated than US/Canadian players. USA & Finland have a tax treaty and that's good because then players don't get double taxed.

It appears to me that in a Finnish player's case, where they play in the USA probably doesn't matter tax wise since Finland's tax rates are very high and Finland taxes Global income (highest State taxes are lower than Finlands rate). There is something unique to Capital taxes that I am missing since I remember seeing Antii Raanta benefiting from playing in a Euro League other than Finland for a year to save on the taxes on the sale of his Raleigh home.

From PwC's web site re: Finland: Finland - Individual - Taxes on personal income

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Capital (investment) income is taxed at rates of 30% and 34% (the latter percentage is applicable when the annual taxable capital income exceeds EUR 30,000).

Local income taxes

Municipal tax is levied at flat rates on taxable income determined for municipal taxation. The rate varies between 4.70 % and 10.90 %, depending on the municipality. The average municipal tax rate utilised in specific progressive taxation for non-tax residents is 7.50 %.

Church tax

Church tax is payable by members of the Evangelic Lutheran, Orthodox, and Finnish German church in Finland at flat rates on the taxable income determined for municipal taxation. Rates vary between 1% and 2.25%, depending on the parish concerned.

Public broadcasting tax

Public broadcasting tax is levied on taxable income. The rate of public broadcasting tax is 2.5% on annual income exceeding EUR 15,150; however, the maximum amount is EUR 160. Individuals are not liable to pay the tax if their annual income is EUR 15,150 or less, if the individual is under 18 years old, or if the individual lives in the Province of Åland. Åland has its own media fee, which has the same requirements concerning age and income limit, and the amount of the fee is fixed to EUR 127.
 
Another good 4th line centre option that’s probably available would be Faksa from the blues. UFA end of season big guy who hits and is over 50 percent on draws would add some size and toughness to the 4th line. Blues lack draft picks don’t think the price would be too much either

Ideally, I'm sure that Tulsky would like to acquire a RH 4C. Faksa fits the profile in other aspects but is unfortunately LH.
 
There is something unique to Capital taxes that I am missing since I remember seeing Antii Raanta benefiting from playing in a Euro League other than Finland for a year to save on the taxes on the sale of his Raleigh home.
I wish I could be of assistance here, but I can only say that also Jussi Jokinen couldn't return to Finland for the 2018-19 season after his buyout in 2017 by FLA, because earning in Finland in that calendar year would've made his 2018 income in the US taxable in Finland (very heftily to the extent that his Finnish salary wouldn't have been enough to cover for the taxes).

I think it's very much the income tax that gets taxed where you live most of the year. I believe Shakira's issues with the Spanish tax officials stem from their claim that Shakira was in reality living in Spain and so would have had her income be taxable there.
 
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