Roster Building XXI: It Gon' Go Down.

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htdoc

Registered User
Oct 30, 2018
666
2,004
uh oh.... the spreadsheet came out to see how much money we really have against the cap to fill out the roster... seeing too many options that dont seem to add up in terms of the math and the hard cap....

current under contract players that they or equivalent contract dollar players will fill those roles on a final team:

FORWARDS2024-25
Aho, Sebastian
$9,750,000​
Svechnikov, Andrei
$7,750,000​
Kotkaniemi, Jesperi
$4,820,000​
Kuznetsov, Evegeny
$3,900,000​
Staal, Jordan "C"
$2,900,000​
Fast, Jesper
$2,400,000​
Unger Sörum, Felix
$831,667​
Lemieux, Brendan
$775,000​
Comtois, MaximeRFA
Jarvis, SethRFA
Martinook, Jordan "A"UFA
Drury, JackRFA
Necas, MartinArbitration EligibleRFA
Total
$33,126,667​
DEFENSE2024-25
Orlov, Dmitri
$7,750,000​
Slavin, Jaccob "A"
$5,300,000​
Burns, Brent
$5,280,000​
Chatfield, Jalen
$3,000,000​
Morrow, Scott
$916,667​
#5 left dman
$0​
#7 dman - Smith or league min equiv.
$775,000​
Total
$23,021,667​
GOALIES2024-25
Andersen, Frederik
$3,400,000​
Kochetkov, Pyotr **
$2,000,000​
Martin, Spencer
$775,000​
Total
$6,175,000​
Grand Total Salary Cap for all Players
$62,323,334​
Salary Cap for 2024 - 2025 Season
$88,000,000​
Current Salary Cap Space
$25,676,666​

assumes:

- Unger Sorum on the team kind of in new entry level deal version of Turbo kind of role given sizes of the two player and skill set of more playmaking than sniper...

- Lemieux as the 13th extra forward doing injury fill in and change up the roster for a game or two depending on team performances...

- this assumes Morrow stays with big club as inexpensive entry level contract in 3rd pair 5v5 role and some PP time... but Im not convinced of this and instead think the morrow spot should be labelled "cheap vet dman" as we need someone about the league min level price wise to make the cap work overall... Morrow just did not look ready to just jump into a full time NHL d spot based on how he was playing in college this past season... he looked a lot more like he did in Morrow's last game with the many brain cramps and goals against rather than the decent play he had in his first game with us in his debut...

- Smith or an equivalent league min guy is the extra 7th dman almost purely due to their salary cap hit... we wont have a 7th dmen costing $4M per year sitting in the press box all season...

- I left Martin on the active roster counting against the cap in all scenarios because the last few seasons have proven we almost always need 3 goalies across the entire season due to injury issues with all our goalies... we might send him down for some short stretches but I expect 80% of the season will have 3 goalies counting against the cap and we can do that because of how inexpensive our total cost for all 3 goalies are compared to other teams.

So $25.7M left after accounting for 8 of 13 forwards, 6 of 7 dmen and the goalies. Still have to pay Jarvis, resolve the Necas situation and then fill a couple open spots either by re-signing our UFAs before they hit the market, or get equivalent guys in free agency..

Now throw in a couple guesses to see how much we really have to spend:

FORWARDS2024-25
Aho, Sebastian
$9,750,000.00​
Jarvis, Seth
$7,775,000.00​
Svechnikov, Andrei
$7,750,000.00​
Necas, Martin
$7,000,000.00​
Kotkaniemi, Jesperi
$4,820,000.00​
Kuznetsov, Evegeny
$3,900,000.00​
Staal, Jordan "C"
$2,900,000.00​
Fast, Jesper
$2,400,000.00​
Martinook, Jordan "A"
$2,400,000.00​
Drury, Jack
$1,750,000.00​
Unger Sörum, Felix
$831,667.00​
Lemieux, Brendan
$775,000.00​
Comtois, Maxime
$775,000.00​
Total
$52,826,667​
DEFENSE2024-25
Orlov, Dmitri
$7,750,000​
Slavin, Jaccob "A"
$5,300,000​
Burns, Brent
$5,280,000​
Chatfield, Jalen
$3,000,000​
Morrow, Scott
$916,667​
#5 left dman
$0​
#7 dman - Smith or league min equiv.
$775,000​
Total
$23,021,667​
GOALIES2024-25
Andersen, Frederik
$3,400,000​
Kochetkov, Pyotr **
$2,000,000​
Martin, Spencer
$775,000​
Total
$6,175,000​
Grand Total Salary Cap for all Players
$82,023,334​
Salary Cap for 2023 - 2024 Season
$88,000,000​
Current Salary Cap Space
$5,976,666​

this version tries to bring back as many of the roster from last year as reasonably possible....

- Jarvis gets a reasonable Svech deal coming off entry level with no arb rights or anything....

- Martinook gets a slight raise and a 3 year deal to get him to come back... this might not actually happen as there is a lot of reporting out there that the Martinook like glue players that can play a bit more physically and forecheck and pop in a few will get paid a premium this off season... its why i didn't even include Noesen as he is not coming back here for league min compared to what he will be paid on the open market...

- Drury gets a bump on his expired entry deal by getting a 2 year bridge deal

- we ask Comtois to be the new Noesen by being league min and being the more physical 4th liner that will get a chance to be net front and get some garbage goals on the PP...

- finally, Necas (on a 2 year team forcd arb award to run him to UFA assuming we dont get enough in trade offers to make it worth giving up 2 years of his play on our forward roster)...

- both versions of the roster and the cap hits assume Orlov/Chatfield is the new second pair...

- still missing bottom pair dman and how we will strategize to handle that... the names may not actually be the players that fill #5,#6, and the #7 press box dman... but if we keep Necas and pay Jarvis, we likely can't go out and get a Roy or a DeMelo or high end UFA dman... both in the term and in teh dollars they will want... dont want to completely block teh path for Morrow and Nikishin past this year if we sign a 5 or 6 year deal with a high end UFA dman.... its partly why we are losing out current 2nd pairing of dmen.


biggest thing is that it is clear that there is just no salary cap room to pay Jarvis, bring back Guentzel or another high end, expensive forward and also hold onto Necas and have any hope of fitting it all under the salary cap without messing with the rest of the existing contracted players on the roster and creating even more turnover...
 

bleedgreen

Registered User
Dec 8, 2003
24,680
41,520
colorado
Visit site
uh oh.... the spreadsheet came out to see how much money we really have against the cap to fill out the roster... seeing too many options that dont seem to add up in terms of the math and the hard cap....

current under contract players that they or equivalent contract dollar players will fill those roles on a final team:

FORWARDS2024-25
Aho, Sebastian
$9,750,000​
Svechnikov, Andrei
$7,750,000​
Kotkaniemi, Jesperi
$4,820,000​
Kuznetsov, Evegeny
$3,900,000​
Staal, Jordan "C"
$2,900,000​
Fast, Jesper
$2,400,000​
Unger Sörum, Felix
$831,667​
Lemieux, Brendan
$775,000​
Comtois, MaximeRFA
Jarvis, SethRFA
Martinook, Jordan "A"UFA
Drury, JackRFA
Necas, MartinArbitration EligibleRFA
Total
$33,126,667​
DEFENSE2024-25
Orlov, Dmitri
$7,750,000​
Slavin, Jaccob "A"
$5,300,000​
Burns, Brent
$5,280,000​
Chatfield, Jalen
$3,000,000​
Morrow, Scott
$916,667​
#5 left dman
$0​
#7 dman - Smith or league min equiv.
$775,000​
Total
$23,021,667​
GOALIES2024-25
Andersen, Frederik
$3,400,000​
Kochetkov, Pyotr **
$2,000,000​
Martin, Spencer
$775,000​
Total
$6,175,000​
Grand Total Salary Cap for all Players
$62,323,334​
Salary Cap for 2024 - 2025 Season
$88,000,000​
Current Salary Cap Space
$25,676,666​

assumes:

- Unger Sorum on the team kind of in new entry level deal version of Turbo kind of role given sizes of the two player and skill set of more playmaking than sniper...

- Lemieux as the 13th extra forward doing injury fill in and change up the roster for a game or two depending on team performances...

- this assumes Morrow stays with big club as inexpensive entry level contract in 3rd pair 5v5 role and some PP time... but Im not convinced of this and instead think the morrow spot should be labelled "cheap vet dman" as we need someone about the league min level price wise to make the cap work overall... Morrow just did not look ready to just jump into a full time NHL d spot based on how he was playing in college this past season... he looked a lot more like he did in Morrow's last game with the many brain cramps and goals against rather than the decent play he had in his first game with us in his debut...

- Smith or an equivalent league min guy is the extra 7th dman almost purely due to their salary cap hit... we wont have a 7th dmen costing $4M per year sitting in the press box all season...

- I left Martin on the active roster counting against the cap in all scenarios because the last few seasons have proven we almost always need 3 goalies across the entire season due to injury issues with all our goalies... we might send him down for some short stretches but I expect 80% of the season will have 3 goalies counting against the cap and we can do that because of how inexpensive our total cost for all 3 goalies are compared to other teams.

So $25.7M left after accounting for 8 of 13 forwards, 6 of 7 dmen and the goalies. Still have to pay Jarvis, resolve the Necas situation and then fill a couple open spots either by re-signing our UFAs before they hit the market, or get equivalent guys in free agency..

Now throw in a couple guesses to see how much we really have to spend:

FORWARDS2024-25
Aho, Sebastian
$9,750,000.00​
Jarvis, Seth
$7,775,000.00​
Svechnikov, Andrei
$7,750,000.00​
Necas, Martin
$7,000,000.00​
Kotkaniemi, Jesperi
$4,820,000.00​
Kuznetsov, Evegeny
$3,900,000.00​
Staal, Jordan "C"
$2,900,000.00​
Fast, Jesper
$2,400,000.00​
Martinook, Jordan "A"
$2,400,000.00​
Drury, Jack
$1,750,000.00​
Unger Sörum, Felix
$831,667.00​
Lemieux, Brendan
$775,000.00​
Comtois, Maxime
$775,000.00​
Total
$52,826,667​
DEFENSE2024-25
Orlov, Dmitri
$7,750,000​
Slavin, Jaccob "A"
$5,300,000​
Burns, Brent
$5,280,000​
Chatfield, Jalen
$3,000,000​
Morrow, Scott
$916,667​
#5 left dman
$0​
#7 dman - Smith or league min equiv.
$775,000​
Total
$23,021,667​
GOALIES2024-25
Andersen, Frederik
$3,400,000​
Kochetkov, Pyotr **
$2,000,000​
Martin, Spencer
$775,000​
Total
$6,175,000​
Grand Total Salary Cap for all Players
$82,023,334​
Salary Cap for 2023 - 2024 Season
$88,000,000​
Current Salary Cap Space
$5,976,666​

this version tries to bring back as many of the roster from last year as reasonably possible....

- Jarvis gets a reasonable Svech deal coming off entry level with no arb rights or anything....

- Martinook gets a slight raise and a 3 year deal to get him to come back... this might not actually happen as there is a lot of reporting out there that the Martinook like glue players that can play a bit more physically and forecheck and pop in a few will get paid a premium this off season... its why i didn't even include Noesen as he is not coming back here for league min compared to what he will be paid on the open market...

- Drury gets a bump on his expired entry deal by getting a 2 year bridge deal

- we ask Comtois to be the new Noesen by being league min and being the more physical 4th liner that will get a chance to be net front and get some garbage goals on the PP...

- finally, Necas (on a 2 year team forcd arb award to run him to UFA assuming we dont get enough in trade offers to make it worth giving up 2 years of his play on our forward roster)...

- both versions of the roster and the cap hits assume Orlov/Chatfield is the new second pair...

- still missing bottom pair dman and how we will strategize to handle that... the names may not actually be the players that fill #5,#6, and the #7 press box dman... but if we keep Necas and pay Jarvis, we likely can't go out and get a Roy or a DeMelo or high end UFA dman... both in the term and in teh dollars they will want... dont want to completely block teh path for Morrow and Nikishin past this year if we sign a 5 or 6 year deal with a high end UFA dman.... its partly why we are losing out current 2nd pairing of dmen.


biggest thing is that it is clear that there is just no salary cap room to pay Jarvis, bring back Guentzel or another high end, expensive forward and also hold onto Necas and have any hope of fitting it all under the salary cap without messing with the rest of the existing contracted players on the roster and creating even more turnover...
I think you can put another cheap vet for the forward spot you have FUS keeping currently. Though I could see him making it before Morrow. I think Suzuki may also have a good shot at it. I think one of KK, Kuzy, or Drury will be gone though Drury could move to wing. I think they’ll try to move some money they have in the bottom six to defense.
 

Svechhammer

THIS is hockey?
Jun 8, 2017
24,573
90,111
Now that we are in the offseason, I do have to say I don't have much faith this team will be a contender the next couple years. This team needs a decent shakeup with its forward lines as the defense will absolutely be much worse next year than it was the last couple due to Sjkei and Pesce both likely walking, and with Guentzel probably walking and it sounding like we're expecting too much for a Necas deal, I just don't see that coming.

I have a really bad gut feeling that in 5 years time we are going to look back and realize we absolutely blew it in 2023 and 2024, as those were the years we should have won it all.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
48,792
99,776
I have a really bad gut feeling that in 5 years time we are going to look back and realize we absolutely blew it in 2023 and 2024, as those were the years we should have won it all.
I don't agree.
2023: Even if we got by Florida last year, I think VGN were too deep and good. Sure, anything can happen but we didn't match up well with them at all.
2024: FLA and NYR were as good or better than us and FLA was built for the playoffs.

I can agree that the Canes had their BEST chance to win it all these last 2 years, but I don't agree saying that they "should have" won it all.

As for the rest of your post, you could be right, but until we see what the roster looks like after all the moves, I'm not making a judgement like that.
 

Chrispy

Salakuljettaja's Blues
Feb 25, 2009
8,556
27,718
Cary, NC
I have a really bad gut feeling that in 5 years time we are going to look back and realize we absolutely blew it in 2023 and 2024, as those were the years we should have won it all.
I would argue 2022 if they had Andersen healthy for the playoffs.

Could argue 2023 if they had Svech and Pacioretty healthy as well, although as BBA points out Vegas was really tough last year.

Even then, I'd say "could" over "should." If you want to argue should, you need a season closer to Boston's 2023.
 

Nikishin Go Boom

Russian Bulldozer Consultent
Jul 31, 2017
23,303
54,279
the targets for this off-season:

The team needs to decide on KK vs Drury. We shouldnt keep both. Ill let the team decide on that one.

2RD: The preference would be to get DeMelo, fits everything we need short and longish term. Palatable contract etc. We could go big and try to get Chicago to do the McCabe deal with Connor Murphy. Cheap answer: a retained Risto from Philly.

Now say we decide to go the easier route and go heavier on the left side (which I am not a fan of): Kulak would be a good option. Edmonton is likely to want to shed some cap to increase their depth after the cup let down. they may want a goalie to back up skinner: Freddie for Kulak? Freddie for Kulak and Kane (who they likely are going to dump at this point)? Kane carries negative vibes but so does TDA.

Signing Kulikov has been a preference of mine for a season or two and he is god style match for Morrow. He wont be expensive though. Kylington is available, he would be a good option here for a year.

The cheap answer: We could get paid by Winnipeg to take on Schmidt. He is a decent option and can play both sides in times of need. Defense is good and would be a good balance for morrow with added physicality. not my preference but an option.

A Marchessault 3 x 7 deal is better than a 8 x 8 for Guentzel. Previously mentioned Kane too is an option.

Turbo replacements: Reilly Smith and Armia are options. both good defensively and would match our system. Both can add goal scoring and have 1 year left on their deals which opens up spots for our youngsters in 25-26.

I was confident Martinook was coming back early in the year. now im not so sure. Someone will give him 2.75+ million a year, probably 3+. I wonder if we could swing a deal for Marcus Johansson of the Wild. Minnesota needs a center and doenst have a lot of cap to spare. Kuzy will go back in the deal.

4th line depth options: Stenlund would be my preference then Lafferty then Blackwell for RH FO guy. Vrana as a 4th line scoring option. Kapanen will likely get too much to be an option.

if we can get Shane wright in a Necas deal, do it. Necas' trade changes the dynamics of our targets on offense.
 

Chan790

Registered User
Sponsor
Jan 24, 2012
4,024
2,668
Bingy town, NY
Now that we are in the offseason, I do have to say I don't have much faith this team will be a contender the next couple years. This team needs a decent shakeup with its forward lines as the defense will absolutely be much worse next year than it was the last couple due to Sjkei and Pesce both likely walking, and with Guentzel probably walking and it sounding like we're expecting too much for a Necas deal, I just don't see that coming.

I have a really bad gut feeling that in 5 years time we are going to look back and realize we absolutely blew it in 2023 and 2024, as those were the years we should have won it all.
I'm actually very optimistic about the future, as long as we don't do anything drastic and stupid to try to salvage a "retool" 2024-25 into another high finish in a year we're not a probable Cup contender. We're not in the business of doing stupid things though.

If we can't get the Necas "hockey trade" we want, look at what offer is best for our future or see if we can repair that relationship. I've never expected or thought we should bring back Skjei or Pesce. Love what they do and brought, but neither makes sense looking forward. I'd like Guentzel back, but if we can't pull it off...we need to be aggressive in FA this and next offseason for a top-line guy. Get the kids some NHL ice-time. Use our cap space effectively. I don't think we're getting anything for KK so it makes sense to bring him back and see if he can rebound. (Also, sports psychologist. He seems too in his head when he's slumping.) I'm walking on re-signing Martinook. He's going to get paid and you get burned when you overpay to keep support guys with "glue" and intangibles...their value lies in their contributions exceeding their AAV. It's never been our style but I'd like to see us add more high picks over the next few years to add blue-chip talent to a deep pool.

Mostly though...eyes on the near future.
 

DaveG

Noted Jerk
Apr 7, 2003
51,724
50,481
Winston-Salem NC
I think you can put another cheap vet for the forward spot you have FUS keeping currently. Though I could see him making it before Morrow. I think Suzuki may also have a good shot at it. I think one of KK, Kuzy, or Drury will be gone though Drury could move to wing. I think they’ll try to move some money they have in the bottom six to defense.
I honestly think KK is as good as gone. The question is if someone is going to take him for future considerations or if it's a buyout.
 

Svechhammer

THIS is hockey?
Jun 8, 2017
24,573
90,111
I honestly think KK is as good as gone. The question is if someone is going to take him for future considerations or if it's a buyout.
Yeah I mean unless Drury takes another step and shows he can handle 2C minutes from here on out, I think he's made KK redundant. They're both going to end up slotting into the same roles, and Drury is just better. KK still should have value given the long term deal, we shouldn't need to pay to get rid of him. He absolutely will have value to a rebuilding team, even if its just a pick or 2 coming back.

And a hard no on Patrick Kane. He wouldn't be able to keep up with our offensive pace. He'd help on the PP, sure, but you're not going to get as much out of him 5v5 as you'd hope by bringing him in. We already have one high ceiling vet on a discount that we're hoping finds his form again in Kuzy, probably best to not make it 2.
 

spockBokk

Registered User
Sep 8, 2013
7,342
18,473
If they can get a useful player for Kotkaniemi at a similar cap hit(very unlikely) or if they could dump him for a pick/FC, then I think it’d be in the team’s best interest to be rid of him.

However, I’ve come to believe they’re going to give him another year. I don’t see anyway he and Kuznetsov are both on the team next season, so it’ll be interesting to see what they do there.
 

Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
4,960
9,630
Low country coast
Now that we are in the offseason, I do have to say I don't have much faith this team will be a contender the next couple years. This team needs a decent shakeup with its forward lines as the defense will absolutely be much worse next year than it was the last couple due to Sjkei and Pesce both likely walking, and with Guentzel probably walking and it sounding like we're expecting too much for a Necas deal, I just don't see that coming.

I have a really bad gut feeling that in 5 years time we are going to look back and realize we absolutely blew it in 2023 and 2024, as those were the years we should have won it all.
I've only been saying that since like.... December. This time was our time. With the cap, contracts, and us having a lot of UFA, and talent walking off? Yeah we have lost that window.

Laine seens a likely buy here. Maybe reunite him with aho. Maybe it does something. Maybe. but at 7.5M his contract is WAY WAY worse than KK. CBJ needs to retain on thier mistake. We'd give KK away or buy him out before taking on that salary to get rid of him.

Id be happy to have Laine at 50% retained. But not for Nachos either.
 
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FlyingSquirrels

Registered User
Jul 5, 2011
1,883
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Does anyone really think Dundon will pay a player to NOT play for him? It goes against everything we know about him.

A buyout will never happen under this regime.
 
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Chrispy

Salakuljettaja's Blues
Feb 25, 2009
8,556
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Cary, NC
Does anyone really think Dundon will pay a player to NOT play for him? It goes against everything we know about him.

A buyout will never happen under this regime.
In most cases, I agree.

But will Dundon pay $850K for $4M in cap space for the next 4 years? We talk about what they value a draft pick, but how much do they value $4M in cap space? And yes, it's a small amount for a very long time, but it's part of the payroll he's planning to pay as is. And it's a small amount of dead cap and payroll, less than 1%.

If they can't trade Kotkaniemi, I can see a buyout in this specific instance.
 

Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
4,960
9,630
Low country coast
Does anyone really think Dundon will pay a player to NOT play for him? It goes against everything we know about him.

A buyout will never happen under this regime.
No need to buy out KK when you can dump him to plenty of teams for free. He has value, sorta. I wouldnt be surprised if he ends up in Columbus. And some how we get Laine back. Laine in CB is about as sour as Nachos is here. except Laine is an overpaid problem. Nachos is an RFA
 

NotOpie

"Puck don't lie"
Jun 12, 2006
9,471
18,371
North Carolina
No need to buy out KK when you can dump him to plenty of teams for free. He has value, sorta. I wouldnt be surprised if he ends up in Columbus. And some how we get Laine back. Laine in CB is about as sour as Nachos is here. except Laine is an overpaid problem. Nachos is an RFA
I may be the lone voice here, but I'm all for keeping Kotkaniemi to see if that 23 year old can rebound. He's only 1 year removed from a 40+ point season. He looked very good for the first 2 months of this past season (15 points in 22 games). To me it was a total loss of confidence which penetrated his entire game.

We have a center conundrum to face. Before he left, Waddell spoke of needing a right handed centerman, specifically for faceoffs. Jarvis could definitely slide over to that position (for at least a try out). But the 2C role seems like a battle between Kusnetsov and Kotkaniemi. I'm not sure where Drury fits in as he played pretty adequately, but the question is whether he's got the scoring chops to elevate his game. He could also be a poor man's Martinook replacement on the 3rd line.

To me, the biggest issue isn't the defense as I think we can get the right personnel via free agency or via trade. The biggest issue is putting together 3 solid scoring lines.
 

TheReelChuckFletcher

Former TheRillestPaulFenton; Harverd Alum
Jun 30, 2011
10,716
24,094
Raleigh and Chapel Hill, NC
Demelo is off the board back to Winnipeg 4x4.9

I wonder what our resident hipster thinks is the next good idea for RHD :naughty:

IMO, either go for Carrier or Marino, or load up on the left side like last year by either signing Skjei short-term/high-dollar or by trading for Ferraro.
 
Last edited:

baconandbread

Registered User
Oct 30, 2019
274
455
I may be the lone voice here, but I'm all for keeping Kotkaniemi to see if that 23 year old can rebound. He's only 1 year removed from a 40+ point season. He looked very good for the first 2 months of this past season (15 points in 22 games). To me it was a total loss of confidence which penetrated his entire game.

We have a center conundrum to face. Before he left, Waddell spoke of needing a right handed centerman, specifically for faceoffs. Jarvis could definitely slide over to that position (for at least a try out). But the 2C role seems like a battle between Kusnetsov and Kotkaniemi. I'm not sure where Drury fits in as he played pretty adequately, but the question is whether he's got the scoring chops to elevate his game. He could also be a poor man's Martinook replacement on the 3rd line.

To me, the biggest issue isn't the defense as I think we can get the right personnel via free agency or via trade. The biggest issue is putting together 3 solid scoring lines.
I agree with you, KK also looked decent on his time at wing as well. I think they should put him on Staal's wing personally, let him learn to be one of Rod's favourites there.
 
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