Speculation: Roster Building Thread XXXVIII:

[True Blue]

Which is why one of Smith or Staal will still be here.

I agree. I do not see them both being gone.

 

[mas0764]

Why? Where is there even a spot for him to play next year? And let's forget about all that, what are the chances that he can replace DeAngelo's production for the next several years?

Where is there a spot for Alexis Lafrieniere to play next season?

I think I see the problem with this conversation.

Yeah, I'm "robbing Peter to pay Paul," by trading away a very good 24 year old RD, at a position of excess for us, for a top, top tier #1C prospect.

Why ever use a draft pick on a kid then? Why not trade them all for ready-now players? Any time you don't is "Robbing Peter to pay Paul" since you could be turning the draft pick into an NHL ready piece instead of on a prospect!

It's called team building and foresight. Everything you do is either a decision about the now or the future. I think it's way smarter to bet on the future of this team with 25 year old Kakko, Kravtsov, Chytil, Shesterkin, etc, than the next 2 years with 27 year old Mika and 29 year old Panarin.

I have no idea what the official plan was when Panarin was signed. My conceptualization would be, stopgap and mentor for the kids until he's about 30 when Kakko, Chytil, and Kravtsov are ready to dominate. Obtaining Byfield would fit into that timeline since he's a Kakko-level prospect.

But apparently even Lafreniere wouldn't have a place on this team next year.

You'd rather field a marginal competitor than take affirmative moves to assemble a dominant team. I'm willing to put off competition by a year or two to get the final pieces of a dominant team. I don't see it as a risk: Fox, Trouba and Lundkvist are capable of making up what we'd lose with DeAngelo since they are all excellent players as well.

And we do need more elite talent at forward to take the next step. We currently lack it. Byfield is gonna be a stud.

This second guessing of elite prospects like they are second rounders is just silliness.

 

[Edge]

I agree. I do not see them both being gone.

Lindgren is a given. I think it's one of Staal or Smith, maybe one of Robertson or Hajek.

Wildcard could be if indeed they end up doing an ADA flip that involves a LD. In that case, you might have Smith kind of serve as a utility player LD/RD/W.

 

[Ola]

Quite the dose of Ranger luck to be chasing a playoff spot, have the season potentially cancelled in March and walk away with nothing.

No playoff spot, and a terribly slotted pick

This is probably it for the NHL season, but if it were resume, a perfect scenario would be a play-in situation where we keep the lottery position.

 

[Ola]

I hope David Quinn at this very moment is sitting and planning for Training Camp: Hell Week v. 2.0 starting tomorrow and ending at the earliest of never or when any NHL season starts next, whichever comes first.

 

[True Blue]

Lindgren is a given. I think it's one of Staal or Smith, maybe one of Robertson or Hajek.

Wildcard could be if indeed they end up doing an ADA flip that involves a LD. In that case, you might have Smith kind of serve as a utility player LD/RD/W.

Sure, if they were to move DeAngelo, I can only see it being for that. Barring that, I think that the hope can be that Hajek steps up and can take a spot. And then, likely that it is Smith or Staal. Even if it is Staal, I think that Smith retains his exact role on the team next year.

 

[Edge]

Sure, if they were to move DeAngelo, I can only see it being for that. Barring that, I think that the hope can be that Hajek steps up and can take a spot. And then, likely that it is Smith or Staal. Even if it is Staal, I think that Smith retains his exact role on the team next year.

I'm actually interested to see how Robertson looks in camp. I think that kid might really give Hajek a run for his money.

 

[Ail]

Aside from the ending, lots to like about this season. I can't wait to see what they do next year. It will be interesting to see how they handle the draft.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Sooo... Kakko beat Hughes in rookie scoring!

 

[True Blue]

Where is there a spot for Alexis Lafrieniere to play next season?

Kakko is surely scoring 50 this year. He's a stud! Hughes is such a talent He is going to step right in and produce.

Yes, where are you fitting in Lafrieniere next year and what has showed you he is ready for a regular NHL role?

I think I see the problem with this conversation.

Yeah, I'm "robbing Peter to pay Paul," by trading away a very good 24 year old RD, at a position of excess for us, for a top, top tier #1C prospect.

I see a completely different problem. Or several of them. Let's start with me not understanding how it is that RD is a position of excess. Where is the excess?

Why ever use a draft pick on a kid then? Why not trade them all for ready-now players? Any time you don't is "Robbing Peter to pay Paul" since you could be turning the draft pick into an NHL ready piece instead of on a prospect!

Come on. You are better than that. Let's not throw out context and timelines. There has been no one more than me that has been defensive draft picks and prospects. But eventually you realize that some will be used as ammo. And that eventually a team stops giving away assets for simply futures. If the Rangers are always building for what happens in the next 3-4 years, then why not trade away ZBad as he will be already 30 at that time?

It's called team building and foresight. Everything you do is either a decision about the now or the future. I think it's way smarter to bet on the future of this team with 25 year old Kakko, Kravtsov, Chytil, Shesterkin, etc, than the next 2 years with 27 year old Mika and 29 year old Panarin.

Which of those 25 year olds is Panarin or ZBad? You do realize that there is a solid chance that NONE of them will EVER be those players, right?

I have no idea what the official plan was when Panarin was signed. My conceptualization would be, stopgap and mentor for the kids until he's about 30 when Kakko, Chytil, and Kravtsov are ready to dominate. Obtaining Byfield would fit into that timeline since he's a Kakko-level prospect.

No offense, but one has to be smoking crack to believe that Panarin was signed for $11m to be a placeholder until he is 30.

But apparently even Lafreniere wouldn't have a place on this team next year.

Tell me where. What is the path to get him into the everyday line up and where does he play?

You'd rather field a marginal competitor than take affirmative moves to assemble a dominant team. I'm willing to put off competition by a year or two to get the final pieces of a dominant team.

Wait, wait,wait. NOT trading DeAngelo for away for a draft pick is an example of me wanting to field a marginal competitor as opposed to a dominant team?

I don't see it as a risk: Fox, Trouba and Lundkvist are capable of making up what we'd lose with DeAngelo since they are all excellent players as well.

I would like to know how Lundqvist is ready to do anything and how exactly you can be sure of him being an excellent player considering he has not even skated on North American ice yet. Then let's follow that up with production numbers. Trouba, Fox & DeAngelo are on pace for 145 points between the three of them over an 82 game stretch. Please distribute those 145 points between Trouba, Fox & Lundqvist and let me see how you see them making up for DeAngelo.

And we do need more elite talent at forward to take the next step. We currently lack it. Byfield is gonna be a stud.

How many elite forwards does a contending team need to compete. Even if Byfield reaches that level, the chances are that it will probably take him at least 5 years to get there. At which time, you will be making the same exact argument about needing to trade Fox for an elite level forward.

This second guessing of elite prospects like they are second rounders is just silliness.

Yes, top prospects NEVER bust and ALWAYS become elite players.

 

[True Blue]

I'm actually interested to see how Robertson looks in camp. I think that kid might really give Hajek a run for his money.

I certainly hope so.

 

[mas0764]

Yes, top prospects NEVER bust and ALWAYS become elite players.

It's not about always and never.

I mean, I think we are very obviously at an impasse.

I am not gonna be bothered debating the merits of prospects like Kakko, Lafreniere, etc. Sidney Crosby and Connor McDavid once upon a time were prospects who had never played in the NHL before, but there is just no sense in playing this "Well they may bust!" game. Yes, they might, and also, DeAngelo may never replicate this success again. He may have attitude problems and flame out.

Of course none of that is likely.... but it's also not likely that a prospect like Lafreniere flames out.

We need a top center prospect in our system, or at least another top wing prospect while having Chytil be that center of the future. I don't view it as a very big gamble to bet on a player like Byfield, Stutzle, Lafreniere, or anyone who fits into that Kakko tier. It's way more likely that they pan out than they don't.... a small enough risk that I'm not worried about it. If I roll snake eyes swinging for those fences, I'll live with the consequences, but it's the same gamble you made signing Panarin. Certainly there's a pretty substantial history of big FA's not panning out in NY. I wouldn't say that getting one of those prospects is any riskier than that.

All your hypos about "What if Lundkvist doesn't work out" are matched by "What if Mika isn't a 90 point player anymore in 2 years"?

We need more assets. Either approach is a gamble, you just only seem to be recognizing one side of it.

But we have system strength at RD. It would shock and amaze me if we don't end up with more quality RDs than we can use. "Missing out" on the productivity of one of those RDs, when we clearly have another RD in the system who is gonna be PP1 capable in Fox, is the last thing this team needs to be concerned about.

I like DeAngelo a lot. In a scenario where we win the lottery, I'd be stumping to move him over to LD so we can keep him long term here with a right side of Fox-Trouba-Lundkvist. I want to keep all these guys.

But if I need to trade someone for a top line forward, I'm not sweating it either.

Please note... this is not advocating for an "endless rebuild."

I think we need one or two more forwards for our top 6 long term. Trading excess from our D to obtain one of them, while hitting on another with our own pick, would essentially end our rebuild going into next year.

If that sets back competing for one season while Fox matures and Lundkvist gets up to speed, fine. But this fear of "What if Fox never matures and Lundkvist never gets up to speed" is equaled by "What if we don't have enough forward firepower to compete long term"? Equal concerns. But you can't simply stockpile until everything is proven... at some point you have to take a leap of faith on your prospect depth working out.

 

[haohmaru]

The bottom line here is you make whatever move(s) make your team better - whatever they are. Skjei was presumably moved to make $ room to sign ADA. I'd be surprised if he's on the move, but, if he is, then the return had better be substantial.

There's no such thing as "we have too many talented RD in the organization". You can never have too many because everyone else needs them and they are a premium asset.

I think they'll do something with Staal or Smith. Preferably Staal. Smith is serviceable as a 3D with a little bite on the back end. I have no problem with him being there over Brady.

 

[bobbop]

I am. If they weren't, they wouldn't have dealt Skjei.

I think you have your logic backwards here. I think they traded Skeji because they are looking at next year as a playoff year and he was no longer part of the core. I think this may eventually go down as one of Gorton very best moves.

 

[bobbop]

A solid bottom-6 vet or two would be ideal for this team. A guy in the mold of a Cizikis or Acciara

That too!

 

[Tawnos]

I think you have your logic backwards here. I think they traded Skeji because they are looking at next year as a playoff year and he was no longer part of the core. I think this may eventually go down as one of Gorton very best moves.

You’re misinterpreting what I was saying though. It being a build year doesn’t mean not a playoff year. It means not a contending year.

It’s why I didn’t use the word rebuild.

 

[BBKers]

Where would we pick now if no more games are to be played? I found it complicated

 

[Ola]

Everyone’s preparation for the draft is cut short. I don’t think that hurts us. But missing out on the U18 (is it cancelled? Seems likely that it will be) will be huge. But the smaller organization the more hurt you should be to have less time.

It’s too bad that we don’t have a 2nd round pick or two. I think that there are many good players out there who are 1st round material but hasn’t been getting proper attention.

I’ve been watching Zion Nybeck a lot lately. I get more and more impressed with him every time I see him. People see his size and rank him 20 spots too low out of habit. Should definitely be a top 10-20 pick. Think there will be many good value picks made in the 20 to 60 range too.

 

[Ola]

Where would we pick now if no more games are to be played? I found it complicated

I saw 13 and 20 based on winning percentage, could be incorrect.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Wait, what ... the season is over?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Wait, what ... the season is over?

No, just an assumption that everyone is jumping to for some reason.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

If the season is over, what a shitty last year for Henrik

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Nah. Next year is still a transitional year. Probably the last one. This is not even a playoff team, or barely so yet.

Next season is still part of the build.

If next year is a transition year its because the FO did a horrible job this summer and/or the coaching staff is still forcing non NHL players on the ice.

I'm not a believer in a "cup formula" but this team has most of the components that you would need to classify as a contender.

Some people are acting as if this team is being carried by Panarin and Zibanejad while ignoring the out puts by DeAngelo, Fox, Lindgren, Shesty (small sample size at the NHL level, but hes had a huge NA pro season), Kreider (who half of the board was going nuts over before he re-signed), etc.

The holes they have to fill are the easier ones to take care of and they have some really good in house options who are already with the team to grow into those roles (or more.)

Most glaring ones being a quality LHD (who can PK and defend with out murdering offense), a strong 2 way middle 6 forward, and another forward with some bite.

Stupid Lias.

 

[QJL]

If we get Lafreniere, he’s the 4th best winger on the team immediately at worst. 2nd at best.

 

[bobbop]

Then why draw a contrast between those teams not trading elite players for futures and trading a DeAngelo?

The chances of Adam Fox hitting 60 points is slim. Can we first see how his season goes next year? He COULD take a step back, you know.

So you are burning 3 years off of Kreider, Panarin and ZBad and waiting until they are all over 30 to compete? Because if the thought is that Lundkvist + Byfield will do better than 60 points, you may well be waiting around that time line to find out. That's if one of them does not bust or at least does not play to expectations. Teams that are looking to compete do not make these types of trades.

What are they if not futures? Chances of Stutzle starting in the NHL next year, I do not think are great. Same goes for Byfield. None of which changes that as they are not NHL players, but prospects not yet drafted by any team, they are futures.

But I assure you, they do.

Why? Where is there even a spot for him to play next year? And let's forget about all that, what are the chances that he can replace DeAngelo's production for the next several years?

So you trade away young players with elite level production for nothing but futures because you are worried about the production of your 26 year old elite center down the line?

Of course it is. You are robbing Peter to pay Paul by severely weakening your team in order to hope that a kid that is not yet drafted in the NHL in hopes that they will be meaningful contributors in a few years.

Then why not make efforts to trade DeAngelo for that instead of the promise of a good player?

They are definitely not winning the Cup next year. And there is no definite about any of them. But looking at that the young defensemen has done this year, it is not hard to imagine them from competing for the Cup in the non too distant future.

As for the forwards, what they need is better depth. Not top-6 players. Your opening is who plays RW with Panarin and Strome. You hope that Kakko can step into that role. Then you need better support players on the bottom 6. The forward components are not as bereft as you are making it sound.

Your view of waste is not shared by many. One could make a point that for this young team, the experience of making a playoff run would be fantastic. Or do you envision your propects coming over and the team magically goes on a run in 3 years after missing the playoffs?

Even prospects like Kakko can take a few years to develop.

And if your prospects take longer than that to develop? Or do not make it at all?

Do you really think that Gorton and JD signed Panarin with the thought of treading water with him for 3 years before becoming contenders?

And I am saying "no". And believe that Rangers management is thinking the same

The Rangers have the same risk with DeAngelo too. I actually think he’s a higher risk than Fox but I don’t see either as truly high risk.

Unless someone overwhelms the Rangers, I’m just fine keeping all three. Lundkvist can marinate for a year in Hartford. Time will give everyone a clearer picture of what those next steps could/should be.

The rest of your post is pretty spot on. This is going to quickly become a win now team. If not last year, then certainly the year after.