Speculation: Roster Building Thread V (2021 Offseason) - Hold them horses, only 45 days left until the draft!

[Ola]

Much is made about Gorton only screwing up by signing Quinn or at least not firing him when it was obvious that he was in way over his head.

But we had nothing going whatsoever for us in relation to the Cap.

It’s just an area we must improve in.

Imagine that you interview a GM with the purpose to hire someone that can get you a Cup. What is important? Look if the GM cannot present a plan for how to get 4-5 great contracts signed, ie where players make a lot less than they are worth, the guy shouldn’t get more than a cup of tea. You are never winning without good contracts.

We have been tremendously complacent in this regard. Sure it’s not easy. Sure there are risks. But winning a cup isn’t easy. Only one team can do it.

 

[Ola]

Exactly why I raised this point.

Great posts on this topic!

BTW, I am not sure if there — ever — have been a long contract given to someone in their young 20s that was untradable?

Toronto could trade Zaitsev, look at Skjei, great return despite less than stellar performance.

The second you give a 27 y/o a long term deal and that player starts to struggle you can’t trade him.

 

[NYRangers16]

Great posts on this topic!

BTW, I am not sure if there — ever — have been a long contract given to someone in their young 20s that was untradable?

Toronto could trade Zaitsev, look at Skjei, great return despite less than stellar performance.

The second you give a 27 y/o a long term deal and that player starts to struggle you can’t trade him.

Thanks Ola. The key is to do it early before they break out. Because you can still move them like Skjei. If you contantly bridge players, then give them a huge FA deal later, then you are screwed.

 

[Chytilmania]

Fun fact: back in 2014 on another board I proposed a Stepan for Scheifele trade before his NTC kicks in.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

To think, Schiefle was drafted right after both Strome and Zib.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

As far as long term core piece deals, I hope people are only talking about guys like Lafraniere, Kakko and Fox.. I mean I like Chytil, Kravtsov, Nils as much as the next guy, but if you're gonna try to lock up long term deals for guys who break out you do it for the guys who are more likely to do it, and you bridge the others or trade them for NHL talents etc. I mean like we can't offer a long term deal to every young prospect we have.

 

[NYRangers16]

As far as long term core piece deals, I hope people are only talking about guys like Lafraniere, Kakko and Fox.. I mean I like Chytil, Kravtsov, Nils as much as the next guy, but if you're gonna try to lock up long term deals for guys who break out you do it for the guys who are more likely to do it, and you bridge the others or trade them for NHL talents etc. I mean like we can't offer a long term deal to every young prospect we have.

Of course. You trust your evaluation of the player. Foresight is the key. That’s why you hire a GM/Scouting dept. You live and die by them.

 

[MysticLeviathan]

The point is to get those first 8 years at a lower cap hit.

The issue is that by the time those 8 years are up, the player is now a UFA, and some dumbass team is going to give a 7 year contract, sacrifice the last 3-4 years for a great first 3-4 years, and there's little reason for the player to take a 5 year contract when he can take a 7 year, especially since by the time those 5 years are up, he isn't going to get close to the AAV in the prior contract.

This is why, when possible, you give a bridge where the player is still an RFA, give the max deal, then by the time he's done he's just left his prime and now letting him go won't hurt you as much and you got the most out of him.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Much is made about Gorton only screwing up by signing Quinn or at least not firing him when it was obvious that he was in way over his head.

But we had nothing going whatsoever for us in relation to the Cap.

It’s just an area we must improve in.

Imagine that you interview a GM with the purpose to hire someone that can get you a Cup. What is important? Look if the GM cannot present a plan for how to get 4-5 great contracts signed, ie where players make a lot less than they are worth, the guy shouldn’t get more than a cup of tea. You are never winning without good contracts.

We have been tremendously complacent in this regard. Sure it’s not easy. Sure there are risks. But winning a cup isn’t easy. Only one team can do it.

wtf are you talking about , NYI are loaded with bad contracts and they're gonna in the Cup

 

[NYRangers16]

The issue is that by the time those 8 years are up, the player is now a UFA, and some dumbass team is going to give a 7 year contract, sacrifice the last 3-4 years for a great first 3-4 years, and there's little reason for the player to take a 5 year contract when he can take a 7 year, especially since by the time those 5 years are up, he isn't going to get close to the AAV in the prior contract.

This is why, when possible, you give a bridge where the player is still an RFA, give the max deal, then by the time he's done he's just left his prime and now letting him go won't hurt you as much and you got the most out of him.

And yet you can’t compete this way from a cap management perspective. I’m done drilling this point home, but you can look to multiple examples of how this hasn’t worked in a capped NHL ever.

 

[jay from jersey]

So I guess he is smarter than us. He gets paid for his nonsense and still gets people to read and react.

So I guess he is smarter than us. He gets paid for his nonsense and still gets people to read and react.

smarter hell no. Lucky, For sure. If all it took was being smarter we’d see many different people in more prominent positions throughout Govt, private sector, and media. Success in life is pretty much the same everywhere. You only need 3 things to be successful in this life and it goes for every state, every country, pretty much everywhere in the world
1 timing
2 opportunity
3 connections

If you have that your on the elevator on the way up. But to have all 3 you need to be lucky. Like uncle Larry.
that’s why the old saying it’s better to be lucky then good will always apply

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

Should we have any interest in Monahan with 2 years left? especially if we can keep Chytil? maybe Chytil takes a leap in those next 2 years and Monahan is only 26.. Can he get back to where he was before the hip injury?

Gives you Zibanejad, Monahan and Chytil as options to evaluate for the next 1-2 years while not being tied down to anyone long term yet.

 

[n8]

Barkov is the guy tjat you take the risk on.

Healthy, better 200 foot player than JE.

The Rangers would have no issues signing him beyond this contract as Mika is a goner whether its JE or Barkov

The Rangers in 2 years are going to be a preferred destination based on the youth beginning prime years. Barkov would be wise to resign.

With every penny JE is getting.

Every penny

I'm not a JE fan simply because he doesn't have that winner's pedigree (the neck doesn't help either)
I'm also not as convinced as you are that Zib is a goner. He's an excellent 2-way player that is so dangerous. It all boils down to if he will sign for an extension that works. Which in that case, I would love to have Barkov-Zib as our 1-2. If we are trading Zibs cap hit for Barkov's (w/ extension), then I could get behind that.

 

[bobbop]

Great posts on this topic!

BTW, I am not sure if there — ever — have been a long contract given to someone in their young 20s that was untradable?

Toronto could trade Zaitsev, look at Skjei, great return despite less than stellar performance.

The second you give a 27 y/o a long term deal and that player starts to struggle you can’t trade him.

Clayton Keller

 

[CLW]

Clayton Keller

Chychryn's contract looks great though. Keller needs a better coach. He has undoubted talent which should blossom in the right context.

 

[huerter]

wtf are you talking about , NYI are loaded with bad contracts and they're gonna in the Cup

All those guys you probably consider bad contracts (I don't) are either beauties or grizzled vets and they ALL have skin in the game.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Just a reminder that we're still the 2nd youngest team in the nhl and will likely be the youngest opening day. My expectations are elevated but maybe they shouldn't be. I'm a little worried that Dolan and Sather aren't understanding that point.

 

[eco's bones]

Much is made about Gorton only screwing up by signing Quinn or at least not firing him when it was obvious that he was in way over his head.

But we had nothing going whatsoever for us in relation to the Cap.

It’s just an area we must improve in.

Imagine that you interview a GM with the purpose to hire someone that can get you a Cup. What is important? Look if the GM cannot present a plan for how to get 4-5 great contracts signed, ie where players make a lot less than they are worth, the guy shouldn’t get more than a cup of tea. You are never winning without good contracts.

We have been tremendously complacent in this regard. Sure it’s not easy. Sure there are risks. But winning a cup isn’t easy. Only one team can do it.

My problem with this is it’s a lot harder than you make it out if only for two reasons salary arbitration for RFA’s and unrestricted free agency.

I suppose we didn’t have to sign Panarin or not traded for Trouba but I don’t see how not doing those two things would have made us a better team. OTOH re-signing Kreider looks like it might have been a big mistake.

 

[eco's bones]

Much is made about Gorton only screwing up by signing Quinn or at least not firing him when it was obvious that he was in way over his head.

But we had nothing going whatsoever for us in relation to the Cap.

It’s just an area we must improve in.

Imagine that you interview a GM with the purpose to hire someone that can get you a Cup. What is important? Look if the GM cannot present a plan for how to get 4-5 great contracts signed, ie where players make a lot less than they are worth, the guy shouldn’t get more than a cup of tea. You are never winning without good contracts.

We have been tremendously complacent in this regard. Sure it’s not easy. Sure there are risks. But winning a cup isn’t easy. Only one team can do it.

it’s a lot harder than you make it out if only for two reasons 1. salary arbitration for RFA’s and 2. unrestricted free agency.

 

[eco's bones]

it’s a lot harder than you make it out if only for two reasons 1. salary arbitration for RFA’s and 2. unrestricted free agency.

some teams amass a lot of home grown talent and are good at keeping some of that to stay just out of loyalty but really the team almost has to commit in that case to keeping the group together or as much as possible.

players come to understand their worth on the market and you can only hold that back so much.

 

[DutchShamrock]

You are missing one key information point. Owners.

Owners can and do jump into decision making process. Sometimes their desire for things to happen quickly get in the way of solid planning. Do you not think Florida’s owner was in on the Bob deal? Remember they were also willing to pay Panarin the same kind of scratch.

I keep saying it because it was and is correct. Years ago, I saw the Coyotes payroll model that stretched out seven years. Of course, now that was two owners and two GMs ago. What was interesting is that the model assumed players not yet drafted (e.g. Keller) would eventually get large contracts.

Some GMs are smarter (e.g DonnSweeney) than others (e.g Jim Benning)

What part was correct? That fans worry too much or that GMs have the issue under control?

Sure, some are better than others. But Gorton, who did a very good job overall, mismanaged the cap. No one used buyouts more. He had one of the biggest dead cap hits in the league. He had to bridge really good players because he had a razor thin margin with a lottery team. Gorton had excuses for some of that, but he had egg on his face for others. So I think it's completely valid for Ranger fans to fret over the cap and discuss long term planning.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

What part was correct? That fans worry too much or that GMs have the issue under control?

Sure, soe are better than others. But Gorton, who did a very good job, mismanaged the cap. No one used buyouts more. He had one of the biggest dead cap hits in the league. He had to bridge really good players because he had a razor thin margin with a lottery team. Gorton had excuses for some of that, but he had egg on his face for others. So I think it's completely valid for Ranger fans to fret over the cap and discuss long term planning.

I dunno, the only buyout that didn't make sense i guess was Hank, only had one year left, georgiev could have been delt instead. In hindsight that wouldn't have been necessary with Hanks heart, but i think the buyouts got us to today with our kids having more experience and the cap space we used was in a year that really wasn't meant to be a cup run year. If i were to critique Gorton for something it would be the Andersson pick because he was picked at 7 for his leadership and character of which he showed he had none, and while the pick to an outsider looking in looked odd, you would assume the two qualities that they said they picked him for would have been scouted heavily enough for them to use that pick on him. There is enough to like about the player but they really should have had the character thing nailed when thats what they were pushing to us.

 

[Vitto79]

Dallas may look to make changes. Faska as a 3C?

 

[pld459666]

I'm not a JE fan simply because he doesn't have that winner's pedigree (the neck doesn't help either)
I'm also not as convinced as you are that Zib is a goner. He's an excellent 2-way player that is so dangerous. It all boils down to if he will sign for an extension that works. Which in that case, I would love to have Barkov-Zib as our 1-2. If we are trading Zibs cap hit for Barkov's (w/ extension), then I could get behind that.

If Mika has another insane year, and I can't envision him not, he can command close to 10 on the open market.

Adding either Eichel or Barkov means Mika is a goner.

Cap is flat for at least the next 3-4 years.

Guys have to get paid, Fox, Shesty, eventually Lafreniere and Kakko

Not only will Mika have to go, but so will Strome, CK and Trouba.

We cannot be top heavy the way Toronto is. We will never win without depth.

 

[pld459666]

And yet you can’t compete this way from a cap management perspective. I’m done drilling this point home, but you can look to multiple examples of how this hasn’t worked in a capped NHL ever.

I could be wrong, but hasn't Tampa bridged:

Point, Kucherov, Palat, Johnson, Cirelli, Sergachev